2 years of insomnia on Test C- various dosages

[DS3]

HCG can also go the other way and cause anxiety. It did for me. i would start low for sure

No question about this.

 

[sammmy]

Hello everyone,

I have been dealing with severe insomnia while on testosterone cypionate for the past two years. Used androgel (sorry I do not remember the dose) for years prior. Testicular cancer survivor, can’t get off trt. I’ve tried various regimes and protocols and tricks and I’m going insane!! Need a lot of help and advice because sleep is my Achilles heel for life, training, work, school, etc. working with a sleep therapist starting this week but it’s likely my trt to blame.

Main side effects are brain fog and lack of libido and anxiety in the evening and night. No anxiety in the morning or during the day. Can’t nap and get poor quality sleep

Current protocol: 125mg weekly, .1ml everyday except Wednesday, 20mg oral progesterone nightly

Considering lowering this to 100 and injecting nightly, I used to use androgel at night so possibly this would work…

Shots are IM taken in the morning

Current supplements: progesterone 20mg, magnesium citrate 500mg

Past supplements tried: l Theanine, vitamin e Berberine, valerian root, melatonin, liquid ivs
Past meds tried: trazadone, Benadryl, long list but all of these didn’t work… don’t want to take benzos or harsh meds

Most recent blood work:

Test: 720 ng/dl
E2: 41
Shbg: 23
Cortisol: 10.64 ug/dl

Unfortunately this is all I received from my endo, I’m going to request labs soon and if there’s anything that should be tested for next time I will ask for and update ASAP.

Practice good sleep hygiene, sunlight in the morning and I live in Arizona so vitamin D deficiency

Lift 4x a week, box 3-5x and over 10k steps a day. Diet is perfect rn, hit 97% on Cronometer daily. Don’t drink much, occasionally smoke cigs. University student most of the year, wildland firefighter in summer. Can’t sleep a damn during either season. Fan of hockey and boxing… is this enough information?

The obvious solution for you is to go back to Androgel or drastically reduce your injectable T dose.

 

[Simbarn]

Hello everyone,

I have been dealing with severe insomnia while on testosterone cypionate for the past two years. Used androgel (sorry I do not remember the dose) for years prior. Testicular cancer survivor, can’t get off trt. I’ve tried various regimes and protocols and tricks and I’m going insane!! Need a lot of help and advice because sleep is my Achilles heel for life, training, work, school, etc. working with a sleep therapist starting this week but it’s likely my trt to blame.

Main side effects are brain fog and lack of libido and anxiety in the evening and night. No anxiety in the morning or during the day. Can’t nap and get poor quality sleep

Current protocol: 125mg weekly, .1ml everyday except Wednesday, 20mg oral progesterone nightly

Considering lowering this to 100 and injecting nightly, I used to use androgel at night so possibly this would work…

Shots are IM taken in the morning

Current supplements: progesterone 20mg, magnesium citrate 500mg

Past supplements tried: l Theanine, vitamin e Berberine, valerian root, melatonin, liquid ivs
Past meds tried: trazadone, Benadryl, long list but all of these didn’t work… don’t want to take benzos or harsh meds

Most recent blood work:

Test: 720 ng/dl
E2: 41
Shbg: 23
Cortisol: 10.64 ug/dl

Unfortunately this is all I received from my endo, I’m going to request labs soon and if there’s anything that should be tested for next time I will ask for and update ASAP.

Practice good sleep hygiene, sunlight in the morning and I live in Arizona so vitamin D deficiency

Lift 4x a week, box 3-5x and over 10k steps a day. Diet is perfect rn, hit 97% on Cronometer daily. Don’t drink much, occasionally smoke cigs. University student most of the year, wildland firefighter in summer. Can’t sleep a damn during either season. Fan of hockey and boxing… is this enough information?

I was trying to work out if you had these issues with androgel? Why did you switch?
How was your libido and sleep on Androgel?

The obvious thing here to me is your dosage as Sammy mentions: 125 mg a week. Try lowering it to 80 mg per week and don't change anything else. Stay on this for a number of months to allow your body to stabilise.
Excessive testosterone can IMO elevate sympathetic activity in our CNS. Some guys are much more prone to this side effect of TRT than others. It can cause a myriad of issues in the body and dampen sexual function considerably. Anxiety is also a common symptom of this.
I realise that 125 mg a week may be boosting your athletic performance and energy, however, there is always a trade off when doing this.
I assume your test result is at trough level, which would say to me your peak is much too high.

 

[Pnw0031]

I was trying to work out if you had these issues with androgel? Why did you switch?
How was your libido and sleep on Androgel?

The obvious thing here to me is your dosage as Sammy mentions: 125 mg a week. Try lowering it to 80 mg per week and don't change anything else. Stay on this for a number of months to allow your body to stabilise.
Excessive testosterone can IMO elevate sympathetic activity in our CNS. Some guys are much more prone to this side effect of TRT than others. It can cause a myriad of issues in the body and dampen sexual function considerably. Anxiety is also a common symptom of this.
I realise that 125 mg a week may be boosting your athletic performance and energy, however, there is always a trade off when doing this.
I assume your test result is at trough level, which would say to me your peak is much too high.

Thank you for the advice, dropping to 80mg this week. Libido was low but sleep was normal on androgel

 

[Russo]

I am having the same problem. Low libido, anxiett and insonia. And I am also on TRT with cypionate. It's the Testosterone causing this.

Yesterday I was more than a week without injecting Testosterone (note that I am on a very low dose and have low SHBG, so it decrease levels fast) and my libido was so good that I beat up 8x times. Then I injected 40mg of Cypionate and the next hour I started to feel anxious and my dick died again. Today I didnt even thinked about sex. Totally dead. And my anxiety is creeping in again..

I am still trying to figure how to fix it. Every time I inject, as little as I can, it start again instantly. It's the testosterone.

It is so frustating. A true hell.

 

[sammmy]

I am having the same problem. Low libido, anxiett and insonia. And I am also on TRT with cypionate. It's the Testosterone causing this.

Yesterday I was more than a week without injecting Testosterone (note that I am on a very low dose and have low SHBG, so it decrease levels fast) and my libido was so good that I beat up 8x times. Then I injected 40mg of Cypionate and the next hour I started to feel anxious and my dick died again. Today I didnt even thinked about sex. Totally dead. And my anxiety is creeping in again..

I am still trying to figure how to fix it. Every time I inject, as little as I can, it start again instantly. It's the testosterone.

It is so frustating. A true hell.

Maybe try Androgel.

 

[Russo]

Maybe try Androgel.

It's one of the things I am asking my dr to give me. The gels do increase more DHT than Estrogen, maybe this can lead to better results, or I am wrong?

 

[sammmy]

Topical T leads to more stable levels of T without pronounced peaks and valleys, which is less likely to overstimulate the nervous system - less probable to give you anxiety and insomnia.

However, if you start applying it on testicles or other unauthorized places, it can increase levels too much and make you anxious and irritable just like injectable.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I am having the same problem. Low libido, anxiett and insonia. And I am also on TRT with cypionate. It's the Testosterone causing this.

Yesterday I was more than a week without injecting Testosterone (note that I am on a very low dose and have low SHBG, so it decrease levels fast) and my libido was so good that I beat up 8x times. Then I injected 40mg of Cypionate and the next hour I started to feel anxious and my dick died again. Today I didnt even thinked about sex. Totally dead. And my anxiety is creeping in again..

I am still trying to figure how to fix it. Every time I inject, as little as I can, it start again instantly. It's the testosterone.

It is so frustating. A true hell.

battling a somewhat similar issue. somewhere between 120-150mg/week i got no anxiety but if I go higher its bad. the funny thing is that my libido goes up with the dose, but so does my anxiety and insomnia. when i started my protocol i was on 120mg+hcg. i feel this TRT thing is an everlasting thing try to dial it in

 

[Pnw0031]

Topical T leads to more stable levels of T without pronounced peaks and valleys, which is less likely to overstimulate the nervous system - less probable to give you anxiety and insomnia.

However, if you start applying it on testicles or other unauthorized places, it can increase levels too much and make you anxious and irritable just like injectable.

Other than daily injections (which I already do) any way to reduce the high peaks seen on injectable trt? I’d rather not go back to topical as it was expensive and messy. I inject daily IM but is there other ways to keep peaks to a minimum? Dropping dose to 80mg a week btw

 

[sammmy]

Dropping the dose is the only other way.

 

[Pnw0031]

Dropping the dose is the only other way.

Will do

 

[DS3]

Subcutaneous injections alleviate anxiety and estrogen symptoms in some men. This has also been my personal experience.

 

[Pnw0031]

Subcutaneous injections alleviate anxiety and estrogen symptoms in some men. This has also been my personal experience.

Ok I will give sub q a try starting tomorrow, have you had any side effects with sub q daily dosing?

 

[Cataceous]

Other than daily injections (which I already do) any way to reduce the high peaks seen on injectable trt? ...

With daily injections of testosterone cypionate your peaks are likely only a few percent over troughs—meaning levels are actually very steady. In healthy young men we see a pronounced diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with levels hitting lows in the evenings and then rising overnight. One hypothesis is that relatively high levels earlier in the night are more likely to interfere with sleep, and maybe it's better for hormone receptors to see lower levels for part of each day. No form of TRT makes it easy to mimic a normal diurnal rhythm. The best approximation I've found is to inject an enanthate/propionate blend early each morning. This seems to work pretty well, as propionate raises serum levels fairly quickly, allowing one to "catch up" to the natural pattern. There's still divergence at night, with levels falling steadily rather than rising. But a number of us have found that this pattern still leads to improved sleep, ostensibly due to reduced levels earlier in the night.

In your shoes I would try the simple dose reduction first. That 80 mg of testosterone cypionate per week still represents more testosterone than the average healthy young guy makes naturally. Ideally you'd give it a couple of months for things to settle down. If you're still having problems after that then you can consider further reductions, or else look into using a custom cypionate/propionate blend. In any case, don't be swayed by more-is-better thinking with respect to testosterone. In general it's only better for muscles and athleticism; other parameters, including sleep, tend to suffer from excess. Read through my collection of anecdotes, where guys find lower dosing is better. My experience is similar, with an initial dose of 100 mg testosterone cypionate per week—split to EOD—creating as many problems as it solved. Over the years it's been reduced to the equivalent of 44 mg cypionate per week, taken as daily injections of an enanthate/propionate blend.

 

[DS3]

Ok I will give sub q a try starting tomorrow, have you had any side effects with sub q daily dosing?

Nothing noteworthy. Testosterone is still testosterone so estrogen and aggression will likely still give you some side effects, but to a much lesser degree for me while doing sub-q.

 

[Pnw0031]

With daily injections of testosterone cypionate your peaks are likely only a few percent over troughs—meaning levels are actually very steady. In healthy young men we see a pronounced diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with levels hitting lows in the evenings and then rising overnight. One hypothesis is that relatively high levels earlier in the night are more likely to interfere with sleep, and maybe it's better for hormone receptors to see lower levels for part of each day. No form of TRT makes it easy to mimic a normal diurnal rhythm. The best approximation I've found is to inject an enanthate/propionate blend early each morning. This seems to work pretty well, as propionate raises serum levels fairly quickly, allowing one to "catch up" to the natural pattern. There's still divergence at night, with levels falling steadily rather than rising. But a number of us have found that this pattern still leads to improved sleep, ostensibly due to reduced levels earlier in the night.

In your shoes I would try the simple dose reduction first. That 80 mg of testosterone cypionate per week still represents more testosterone than the average healthy young guy makes naturally. Ideally you'd give it a couple of months for things to settle down. If you're still having problems after that then you can consider further reductions, or else look into using a custom cypionate/propionate blend. In any case, don't be swayed by more-is-better thinking with respect to testosterone. In general it's only better for muscles and athleticism; other parameters, including sleep, tend to suffer from excess. Read through my collection of anecdotes, where guys find lower dosing is better. My experience is similar, with an initial dose of 100 mg testosterone cypionate per week—split to EOD—creating as many problems as it solved. Over the years it's been reduced to the equivalent of 44 mg cypionate per week, taken as daily injections of an enanthate/propionate blend.

Thank you for the help, do you recommend taking neurosteroids alongside trt? And because someone else brought it up, will sub q injections be more similar to a natural rhythm than IM? Reduced my dose to 12mg daily starting on Thursday.

 

[Cataceous]

Thank you for the help, do you recommend taking neurosteroids alongside trt? And because someone else brought it up, will sub q injections be more similar to a natural rhythm than IM? Reduced my dose to 12mg daily starting on Thursday.

Which neurosteroids do you have in mind? It can be reasonable to experiment if levels are below average. Progesterone is considered a neurosteroid and you're already taking a pretty significant dose. Have you checked your levels? If you're well above the normal range then a reduction might be considered. At reasonable levels progesterone is helpful for sleep. I don't know if higher levels paradoxically worsen sleep, as some people find to be the case with melatonin. In any case, I'd try to limit changes to one variable at a time—meaning wait until you have a stable testosterone protocol before doing much other tinkering.

I'd expect to see no perceptible difference between daily IM and subQ injections of testosterone cypionate, at least in parameters that relate to the testosterone delivery. The subQ method usually results in a little longer half-life—but with levels already pretty steady, it's not going to make a difference. I think subQ is more sustainable for daily use, but in the end it's a personal preference.

 

[Mark David]

With daily injections of testosterone cypionate your peaks are likely only a few percent over troughs—meaning levels are actually very steady. In healthy young men we see a pronounced diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with levels hitting lows in the evenings and then rising overnight. One hypothesis is that relatively high levels earlier in the night are more likely to interfere with sleep, and maybe it's better for hormone receptors to see lower levels for part of each day. No form of TRT makes it easy to mimic a normal diurnal rhythm. The best approximation I've found is to inject an enanthate/propionate blend early each morning. This seems to work pretty well, as propionate raises serum levels fairly quickly, allowing one to "catch up" to the natural pattern. There's still divergence at night, with levels falling steadily rather than rising. But a number of us have found that this pattern still leads to improved sleep, ostensibly due to reduced levels earlier in the night.

In your shoes I would try the simple dose reduction first. That 80 mg of testosterone cypionate per week still represents more testosterone than the average healthy young guy makes naturally. Ideally you'd give it a couple of months for things to settle down. If you're still having problems after that then you can consider further reductions, or else look into using a custom cypionate/propionate blend. In any case, don't be swayed by more-is-better thinking with respect to testosterone. In general it's only better for muscles and athleticism; other parameters, including sleep, tend to suffer from excess. Read through my collection of anecdotes, where guys find lower dosing is better. My experience is similar, with an initial dose of 100 mg testosterone cypionate per week—split to EOD—creating as many problems as it solved. Over the years it's been reduced to the equivalent of 44 mg cypionate per week, taken as daily injections of an enanthate/propionate blend.

Interesting. What are your FT, TT, E and SHBG numbers at 44mg a week?

 

[Cataceous]

Interesting. What are your FT, TT, E and SHBG numbers at 44mg a week?

Vermeulen calculated FT is about 15 ng/dL at the daily peak and 9 ng/dL at trough. Labcorp's direct test has been mirroring these values for the last 10 measurements, except for being a factor of 10 smaller, i.e. pg/mL instead of ng/dL. TT is about 700 ng/dL at peak and low 400s at trough. Total estradiol runs about 35-40 pg/mL, though this figure has less meaning because of enclomiphene use. SHBG is 30-35 nMol/L.