Gene's Nitric Oxide Stack

[Gene Devine]

Sometimes the most important factor is not whether it will work or not, but rather if patients will be compliant. With the exception of those whom are very serious, I highly doubt most people will be willing to consume 16 supplements/day, in addition to their TRT regime. Gene's vascularity is impressive; however, if he was not lean, no amount of drugs or supplements would give him that level of vascularity. His supplement program may enhance his vascularity, but is not the predominant reason for it. Congratulations on having the drive and desire to follow such a cumbersome program. Finally, I realize my response may appear to have a negative tone, but in no way is it intended as such.

It's not negative at all Dave and you make good points; but the man taking this stack and sticking to the regime is not your normal man.

This is for the man who tirelessly goes to the gym and trains 4 to 6 times a week not for months but for years.

This is for the man who already is taking supplements to improve performance in training and gaining lean muscle mass...including TRT.

This is for the man who wants a difference in how he looks and how we can perform.

This type of man generally has no problems with protocol compliance...it's how he lives his life.

The stack is really nothing new to be totally honest, if you look at the formulas for most OTC performance supplements many of these compounds are in them just not at much.

I like Tadalafil daily for many many health reasons and believe it is the foundation for which all other elements in this stack come together.

At any rate, the men who I know who have followed this protocol all claim to have gotten the same results as I did so there must be something to it I believe.

My $0.02.

PS. And I totally agree on the being lean to have vascularity Dave, but again, the man who this stack is targeted for is probably already pretty damn lean.

 

[Dave Barry]

Gene,

Thanks for not taking anything I said personally as I am here to learn, help educate others, and have a good time. I know some doctors prescribe a low dosage of Cialis to be taken daily. I believe this dosage is 5mg/day, but I am not sure. Assuming that it is 5mg daily, how do you acquire the additional Cialis and what is the cost? Also, do you take this stack daily or only on your training days?

 

[Gene Devine]

Right with you Dave, this is what good forums are all about...great dialog and debate...the way it should be!

And we do appreciate your participation as well, you bring a great wealth of knowledge.

I take this stack three times daily; before bed, upon waking and in the afternoon off and on training days...I want to keep serum levels stable 24/7.

The Tadalafil (5 mg) and Doxazosin (1 mg) I take before bed then 12 hours later in the afternoon (this is especially good for guys who want good waking erections as well).

Tadalafil and Doxazsoin have about 14 to 16 hour half lives so the 12 hours makes sure serum levels are always optimum.

I am very close to my TRT Physician so I can get my Tadalafil from him easily and cheaply as well.

There are other online sites where Tadalafil can be purchased at far less expense than US pharmacies as well.

 

[dhousey]

Is Doxazosin available without a RX? If not, how can I obtain?
[h=2][/b]

 

[Carlos]

Gene, I have the elements for the NO stack to start taken it completely as soon as I receive the Tadalafil (5mg) from secure tabs. Question.....actually I take Vasotec (enalapril maleate) for high blood pressure. Wich btw is under control since 1 1/2 year ago. Do I include Doxazosin or I check with my Dr. to change it for it?

 

[Carlos]

Also your last post and dhousey are very illustrated with altura. I can't find the word in english. With class. I will keep cheking for your answer.

 

[Carlos]

BTW my blood pressure now without taken any med and 2 cups of coffee is 124/74.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Carlos, you are taking an ACE inhibitor so please do not add doxasozin without taking to your physician. Your BP seems good even without the ACE inhibitor (enalapril)

 

[Dave Barry]

Nelson,

This is one of those situations, in which advice given on the Internet can be detrimental to one's health. Fortunately, we have Moderator's whom understand the potential ramifications of mixing supplements/drugs with pre-existing health conditions. It's unlikely that a physician will give Carlos the green light, considering his current medical conditions.

 

[Carlos]

Carlos, you are taking an ACE inhibitor so please do not add doxasozin without taking to your physician. Your BP seems good even without the ACE inhibitor (enalapril)

I'm asking yous for information. The enalapril have work Ok with me. I'm adding the others ingredients starting low and adding slowly. So far the use of the tri-aminos, glycine and lipo-c is fantastic. My overall performance have grow a lot and the vascularity already started to show in my thighs. I will take some pictures to send it to the forum. Really happy with the results. Thank you ffor your prompt advice Nelson.

 

[Carlos]

Thank you Dave for your advice also.

 

[Gene Devine]

Is Doxazosin available without a RX? If not, how can I obtain?

You need an Rx to get Doxazosin.

 

[Gene Devine]

Gene, I have the elements for the NO stack to start taken it completely as soon as I receive the Tadalafil (5mg) from secure tabs. Question.....actually I take Vasotec (enalapril maleate) for high blood pressure. Wich btw is under control since 1 1/2 year ago. Do I include Doxazosin or I check with my Dr. to change it for it?

Check with your Doctor always, Carlos.

The Doxazosin is a very small dosage but if you have concerns always check with your Doctor.

 

[Carlos]

Check with your Doctor always, Carlos.

The Doxazosin is a very small dosage but if you have concerns always check with your Doctor.

m
I will check with him first. Thank you for your advice, always prompt.

 

[Carlos]

That's correct Dave. I never take any step foward without consulting with my Dr. The forum is for information from people like you, Nelson, Gene etc.... I'm glad this site have you all.

 

[Gene Devine]

Attached is one of the best research papers I've found to date on L-Arginine usage. Let it be known, and the author agrees, there just has not been enough research on the use of L-Arginine and L-Citrulline to make any conclusions...but this paper helps.

I've cut and pasted sections of interest here and bold highlight below may shed light on the pic of my forearm earlier in this thread...which was new news for me LOL!

Enjoy fellows!

Effects of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism
Glenn K. McConell

Acute L-arginine supplementation and
exercise
Although infusion of L-arginine, NO donors and NOS
inhibitors has effects on blood pressure, heart rate and
to clarify the role of L-arginine/NOS in skeletal-muscle
glucose uptake during exercise.


Since local muscle infusion of L-arginine [25] and
femoral-artery infusion of L-arginine [24] have no effect
on leg blood flow during exercise in humans, we feel that
it is likely that L-arginine infusion increases glucose
uptake during exercise by increasing glucose transporter
4 (GLUT-4) translocation to the plasma membrane
rather than increasing skeletal-muscle blood flow. It
should be kept in mind, however, that L-arginine/NOS
inhibitors might effect the distribution of blood flow (the
extent of capillary blood flow) during exercise without
effecting total blood flow [25,38,39].


We also found that L-arginine infusion increased hepatic
glucose output during exercise to a greater extent than
exercise with saline infusion [30]. The mechanism(s)
behind this response are unclear but may relate, in part, to
the relative hypoglycaemia caused by L-arginine infusion
during exercise. Liver glucose output is exquisitely sensitive
to small changes in plasma glucose levels during
exercise in humans, so the decrease in plasma glucose
would be expected to increase liver glucose output [40].


Therefore, it is possible that greater glucose uptake with
L-arginine infusion causes a decrease in the plasma
glucose concentration which then stimulated glucose
output from the liver. It is also possible that L-arginine
infusion increases plasma glucagon concentration during
exercise, which then stimulates liver glucose output,
since this has been shown to occur at rest in humans
[17].

Finally, L-arginine infusion may augment the
exercise-induced increases in hepatic glucose output
by increasing NO, since NO donors have been shown
to potentiate the effect of noradrenaline to increase
liver glucose output in rats and cats [41]. Plasma noradrenaline
increases during exercise in humans [42]. No
study has examined the influence of L-arginine on
hormonal responses to exercise, with the exception
of insulin.


Lipolysis is reduced by L-arginine infusion during exercise,
based on an attenuation of the increase in plasma
glycerol and lower non-esterified fatty acid concentration
[30]. The lower lipolysis may have been due to greater
NO production with L-arginine infusion since NO
inhibits catecholamine-induced stimulation of lipolysis
[43,44]. NOreduces glycerol release from isolated human
adipocytes in vitro [45].


We found that L-arginine infusion has no effect on
exercise performance which involved completion of a
set amount of work as quickly as possible following
120 min of exercise [30]. The set amount of work took
around 15 min. Similarly, acute L-arginine infusion has
been found to have no effect on VO2max-test exercise time
in patients with chronic heart failure [46] and patients
with hypercholesterolaemia [47].


It is necessary to now determine whether oral L-arginine
supplementation, like L-arginine infusion, increases
glucose disposal during exercise. Unfortunately several
studies in humans involving oral supplementation of
L-arginine have not used L-arginine on its own but rather
have used L-arginine in combination with various other
metabolites/salts, which makes interpretation of results
difficult since the effects could be due to the L-arginine,
the other metabolite or a combination. In addition, studies
have sometimes involved very small numbers of
participants. Ingestion of 20 g of L-arginine glutamate
salt before exercising at 75–80% VO2max caused a significant
attenuation of the increase in plasma ammonia
levels at the cessation of exercise (60 min) [48].

A concern about this study is that it only involved three participants.
However, Schaefer et al. [49] also found lower plasma
ammonia (and lactate) after maximal exercise when
L-arginine was infused prior to exercise compared with
a placebo infusion. These results suggest that L-arginine
may decrease muscle energy imbalance during exercise;
however, we found no effect of L-arginine infusion on
plasma lactate during prolonged exercise in endurancetrained
individuals [30]. Studies with muscle biopsies
are required to examine mechanisms in this regard.


Effects of chronic L-arginine supplementation
at rest.


It is obviously not possible to infuse L-arginine into
humans for days or weeks. Therefore chronic effects of
L-arginine supplementation are confined to studies
utilizing oral L-arginine supplementation. Chronic oral
L-arginine supplementation reduces cardiovascular disease
risk factors. Four weeks of oral L-arginine supplementation
(2 g, three times per day) improves angina
class, lowers systolic blood pressure, increases maximumforearm blood flow and improves quality of life in hypertensive
patients with microvascular angina [50]. It also
raised the plasma L-arginine and cGMP concentration
and increased the L-arginine/asymmetric dimethylarginine
ratio [50].


In addition, long-term oral L-arginine supplementation
improves insulin sensitivity and endothelial function in
nonobese people with type 2 diabetes [51]. Recently, in a
follow-up study, this group found that 21 days of oral
L-arginine treatment augmented the beneficial effects of
a hypocaloric diet and exercise training program on
glucose metabolism, insulin sensitivity and markers of
oxidative stress in obese type 2 diabetics [52].

It is possible that L-arginine supplementation improves insulin
sensitivity, at least in part, by increasing skeletalmuscle
mitochondrial biogenesis. Mitochondrial volume
is reduced in skeletal muscle of people with type 2
diabetes [53]. NO donors increase mitochondrial biogenesis
in L6 myocytes and eNOS-knockout mice have
reduced muscle mitochondrial biogenesis markers [54].
We have recently found that 2 days of NOS inhibition
reduces basal skeletal muscle mitochondrial biogenesis
markers in rats [55].


Exercise training and a combination of antioxidants and
L-arginine reduce athererosclerotic lesions and spontaneous
athererosclerotic plague rupture in hypercholesterolemic
mice [56]. Importantly, the combined therapy of
exercise training and supplementation improved these
outcomesmore than either treatment alone [56]. Six weeks
of oral L-arginine supplementation in rats potentiates the
exercise-training-induced increases in angiogenesis in
skeletal muscle and the left ventricle by, it appears,
increasing vacular endothelial growth factor expression
[57]. Indeed, NOS inhibition has been shown to attenuate
the increases in skeletal-muscle vacular endothelial
growth factor mRNA with exercise in rats [58].


Chronic L-arginine supplementation and exercise.


Chronic dietary L-arginine supplementation increases
aerobic capacity during treadmill exercise (8–9%
increase in VO2max) in hypercholesterolemic and normal
mice, which was linked to increases endothelial NO
function [59]. In humans, results have been contradictory
[60], but on balance it would appear that chronic oral
L-arginine supplementation improves maximal (VO2max
test) exercise capacity in patients with cardiovascular
disease, congestive heart failure, stable angina, and pulmonary
hypertension [61–64]. In patients with stable
angina pectoris, oral supplementation of L-arginine
(6 g/day for 3 days) increased exercise capacity, as determined
by a maximum exercise test [61].

In addition, Doutreleau et al. [65] found that 6 weeks of oral L-arginine
supplementation improved a standard enduranceexercise
tolerance test in patients with heart failure
(compared with a placebo group). Heart rate and plasma
lactate concentration were also lower during exercise
after chronic L-arginine supplementation.
Several studies have examined the effect of chronic
L-arginine ingestion on aspects of metabolism during
exercise in humans. In one study 10 days of arginine
aspartate supplementation resulted in a reduction in
plasma ammonia levels at 15 min during 45 min of cycling
at 80% VO2max [66].

However, in another study 2 weeks of
arginine aspartate supplementation had no effect on
plasma ammonia concentration during or 2 h after a
marathon run [67]. It also had no effect on plasma
glucose, lactate, pyruvate, free fatty acids, glycerol,
b-hydroxybutyrate, cortisol, insulin, lactate dehydrogenase
or creatine kinase, although it increased growth
hormone, glucagon, urea and L-arginine itself [67].
Campbell et al. [68] examined the effect of 8 weeks
of oral L-arginine a-ketoglutarate supplementation on
strength and other measures in resistance-trained men.
Twenty men ingested L-arginine a-ketoglutarate three
times per day (12 g/day) and 15 men ingested a placebo.
The L-arginine a-ketoglutarate group had significantly
greater gains in strength during the bench-press exercise
and during a predominantly anaerobic 30-s sprint test on
a bicycle ergometer (the Wingate peak power test).
L-arginine a-Ketoglutarate did not influence body composition,
muscular strength endurance or aerobic capacity
[68].

The finding that L-arginine a-ketoglutarate supplementation
did not improve aerobic capacity supports
earlier findings that L-arginine improves VO2max in various
disease populations but not in healthy individuals [69].


Conclusion


It is clear that L-arginine supplementation improves
aerobic exercise capacity in various cardiovascular disease
states which are associated with endothelial dysfunction.
It is likely that the improvement in exercise capacity is
due to L-arginine increasing the production of NO in
these individuals with reduced basal NO production.


Accordingly, in healthy individuals with normal NO
production it appears that L-arginine administration has
little impact on aerobic exercise capacity.


Little research has been conducted to examine the effect
of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism.
There is some evidence that L-arginine infusion increases
glucose uptake during prolonged exercise and reduces
lipolysis. It is possible that these effects are due to
increases in NO production but more research is required
to confirm this. View attachment Seminario 9 aa-Bq2007.pdf

 

[BigJohn]

Gene I have a question. I finally got Doxazosin in and need to ask at what time do you take it? If I understand you take 1 mg in the morning and 1 at night is that correct? Also, how long does it take to work?

 

[SoCalSurfer]

Hi Gene, Looking to start your stack but got a few questions.
Why 5mg of Tadalafil twice a day?
Also I read that the max dose of L-Arginine and L-Citrulline is suppose to be 6000mg and you at 9000mg. Based on my information below do you feel that I should take less or same?

I am not a bodybuilder but a cyclist who is trying to cut weight yet still stay strong and get an aesthetic build. As an old O-Lineman not an easy task to do. lol
5'11" 260 lbs, 28 in quads, 18 in calfs, no fat on the legs, but that fat loves to be on the mid section.... and not leave...

 

[Michael Frank]

The body fat around the midsection is the last to leave unfortunately. One surefire way of dropping fat is trying a ketogenic diet for 8-10 weeks. I have personally used John Kiefer's Carb Backloading diet and have dropped 2-4% bf in 8 weeks. It's pretty easy and you still get to have carbs but after your workout. I added a 4mg piece of nicotine gum in the morning along with the MCT oil in my coffee. CLA, Green Tea and any OTC fat burner w Capsaicin along w L-Carnitine and you will drop fat for sure. Eliminate carbs in the morning and afternoon, using fat sources and protein only. You will see the difference.

 

[SoCalSurfer]

Thanks Michael.
I will have to read up on John Kiefer's Carb Backloading diet.

I have been doing the 80/10/10 (80% Carbs,10% protein, 10% Fat) vegan diet mostly fruit based which is working well on energy levels and I am replacing fat with muscle. I know a lot of people will think I am crazy but being working very well. The TRT is helping too. Wife thinks I am nuts for having 15 banana's in a smoothie for breakfast but I dont need coffee in the morning and have tons of energy and focus all day long.

Only issue is see with Kefer's diet is I am Type 2 diabetic and have gout as wells so any High protein diet is out because of the gout. High protein will cause my uric acid levels to get to high which then causes a gout attack (so painful). Its kind of a bitch finding that happy medium.

I know you all are thinking Type 2 high carb diet is he crazy. Well my A1C test is always in the normal range and I have gone from 2000 mg of metformin to 500mg in 6 months and soon will be off all of it. I have testing blood sugar levels before eating, after 15 min, after 1hr, after 2hr and even after eating 15-20 bananas blended with just water my levels never went above 110.