EPO vs high HCT

[aneuman]

I know this is going to sound crazy. But I couldn’t handle test cyp at all. It always gave me similar side effects you’re having. they Would be less brutal at lower doses but it always bothered me. Had none Of those sides with test e Except I would get headaches close to my peak. And never could get dialed in. Been on cream over six months and doing much better and able to handle higher levels then injections. And my hct is actually higher on cream

Very interesting. So the Cypionate sides never went away. How long were you on it? Was it otherwise an effective treatment?

The anxiety, insomnia and heavy breathing is "tolerable" for the moment, but this started to happen on week 4 probably and I'm on week 7, I was expecting that the body would adapt.

On Monday I changed from 3 x 30 mg to 2 x 50mg to see if less frequency would work better, but to soon to tell.

What creat are you using? How is your experience compared with T.C. in terms of symptom resolution?

 

[Charliebizz]

Very interesting. So the Cypionate sides never went away. How long were you on it? Was it otherwise an effective treatment?

The anxiety, insomnia and heavy breathing is "tolerable" for the moment, but this started to happen on week 4 probably and I'm on week 7, I was expecting that the body would adapt.

On Monday I changed from 3 x 30 mg to 2 x 50mg to see if less frequency would work better, but to soon to tell.

What creat are you using? How is your experience compared with T.C. in terms of symptom resolution?

About 8 months on cyp. I had to lower the dose to make the sides tolerable but at that point the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze. switching to enanthate gave me much better symptom relief. But had other sides. Switching to cream i Basically have no sides and feel pretty good overall

 

[aneuman]

Switching to cream i Basically have no sides and feel pretty good overall

Congratulations! Hope this continues. If you don't mind me asking, what's your protocol with the cream, strength frequency, cost compared to Cypionate. How would you compare the two putting aside side effects?

 

[sbstrum_MD]

This website is for me, an MD, very provocative. The fund of knowledge of many of you is quite impressive. I am saying this with 60 years of medicine under my belt. Yes, I am an old timer and the end of this year I will retire at age 81. My focus for 40 years has been on prostate cancer and prostate diseases. Here's my take on what many of you find challenging.

1. Each individual is a UBO (unique biologic organism) and given your different ages, different meds and supplements, along with variable diet and life styles, it is not reasonable to equate your health status.
2. The essence of good medicine is to understand, as best as possible, the status of each individual. Status is the biological reality coupled of that person coupled with all the ramifications of mental health, diet and lifestyle as well as genetics and epi-genetics. Without a proper assessment of status, optimal strategy is essential some level of speculation. The rule of thumb, therefore, is ACCURATE STATUS ➜➜➜ OPTIMAL STRATEGY AND THERAPEUTIC INDEX.
3. The use of erythropoietin (EPO) should never be taken lightly. More is not better and in all of biology it is usually the Goldilocks Principle (GLP) that works best for each person: not too hot, not too cold, but just right. If you look at biological systems, key words are balance and communication. The cross-talk between every body system is real. I call this SAIN (Systems Analysis & Integrity Networking) medicine. Currently, the way medicine is practiced is insane.
4. Those of you on multiple meds and supplements should keep track of your status using some form of flow sheet. If there was a way to do a Zoom conference vis-à-vis Nelson, I could share this approach with you. A flow sheet is crucial since it involves the principles of (a) cause and effect, (b) chronology of events, and (c) titration (balancing dose vs. desired effect). An example of the latter and how it is not used is the typical advise to patients regarding taking Vitamin D. Take 1,000 IU/d says the MD-- but he or she never obtains the lab test to ascertain the serum level of (25-OH)-D3 and whether or not it is adequate. We do the same biologically ridiculous thing with aspirin (ASA) when we use a "one size fits all" approach and advise everyone to take 81 mg/d. Some people with activated coagulation systems require more than that to optimize platelet aggregation and adhesion and others may be very sensitive to ASA and require less or perhaps no ASA at all. Again: "status."

So for the guys on many meds, including testosterone, EPO, HCG, etc, the testing of not only the hematocrit (HCT) but also a consideration to check serum viscosity, and to measure estradiol given the HCG use and to realize that an elevation in estradiol has many biological effects, including salt and water retention. And not knowing about diet and what foods are inherently high in Na+ (sodium) and the effect that might have on exercise tolerance and on pulmonary function is important. And not only that but E2 will stimulate prolactin and have many adverse effects on health in the basically healthy male but even moreso in men with prostate diseases.

Real medicine is an art and that art has become endangered. The time spent between MD and patient is now limited as physicians devolve into employees of health corporations whose bottom line is the bottom line.

With all this said, I would say that the level of intellect shown on this site is way up there compared to the many forums I have checked out over the last 30 years.

 

[tareload]

This website is for me, an MD, very provocative. The fund of knowledge of many of you is quite impressive. I am saying this with 60 years of medicine under my belt. Yes, I am an old timer and the end of this year I will retire at age 81. My focus for 40 years has been on prostate cancer and prostate diseases. Here's my take on what many of you find challenging.

1. Each individual is a UBO (unique biologic organism) and given your different ages, different meds and supplements, along with variable diet and life styles, it is not reasonable to equate your health status.
2. The essence of good medicine is to understand, as best as possible, the status of each individual. Status is the biological reality coupled of that person coupled with all the ramifications of mental health, diet and lifestyle as well as genetics and epi-genetics. Without a proper assessment of status, optimal strategy is essential some level of speculation. The rule of thumb, therefore, is ACCURATE STATUS ➜➜➜ OPTIMAL STRATEGY AND THERAPEUTIC INDEX.
3. The use of erythropoietin (EPO) should never be taken lightly. More is not better and in all of biology it is usually the Goldilocks Principle (GLP) that works best for each person: not too hot, not too cold, but just right. If you look at biological systems, key words are balance and communication. The cross-talk between every body system is real. I call this SAIN (Systems Analysis & Integrity Networking) medicine. Currently, the way medicine is practiced is insane.
4. Those of you on multiple meds and supplements should keep track of your status using some form of flow sheet. If there was a way to do a Zoom conference vis-à-vis Nelson, I could share this approach with you. A flow sheet is crucial since it involves the principles of (a) cause and effect, (b) chronology of events, and (c) titration (balancing dose vs. desired effect). An example of the latter and how it is not used is the typical advise to patients regarding taking Vitamin D. Take 1,000 IU/d says the MD-- but he or she never obtains the lab test to ascertain the serum level of (25-OH)-D3 and whether or not it is adequate. We do the same biologically ridiculous thing with aspirin (ASA) when we use a "one size fits all" approach and advise everyone to take 81 mg/d. Some people with activated coagulation systems require more than that to optimize platelet aggregation and adhesion and others may be very sensitive to ASA and require less or perhaps no ASA at all. Again: "status."

So for the guys on many meds, including testosterone, EPO, HCG, etc, the testing of not only the hematocrit (HCT) but also a consideration to check serum viscosity, and to measure estradiol given the HCG use and to realize that an elevation in estradiol has many biological effects, including salt and water retention. And not knowing about diet and what foods are inherently high in Na+ (sodium) and the effect that might have on exercise tolerance and on pulmonary function is important. And not only that but E2 will stimulate prolactin and have many adverse effects on health in the basically healthy male but even moreso in men with prostate diseases.

Real medicine is an art and that art has become endangered. The time spent between MD and patient is now limited as physicians devolve into employees of health corporations whose bottom line is the bottom line.

With all this said, I would say that the level of intellect shown on this site is way up there compared to the many forums I have checked out over the last 30 years.

Sweet Lord in Heaven, are you dating? Jk.

Thank you for taking the time to share this information.

 

[tareload]

So for the guys on many meds, including testosterone, EPO, HCG, etc, the testing of not only the hematocrit (HCT) but also a consideration to check serum viscosity, and to measure estradiol given the HCG use and to realize that an elevation in estradiol has many biological effects, including salt and water retention. And not knowing about diet and what foods are inherently high in Na+ (sodium) and the effect that might have on exercise tolerance and on pulmonary function is important. And not only that but E2 will stimulate prolactin and have many adverse effects on health in the basically healthy male but even moreso in men with prostate diseases.

 

[Charliebizz]

This website is for me, an MD, very provocative. The fund of knowledge of many of you is quite impressive. I am saying this with 60 years of medicine under my belt. Yes, I am an old timer and the end of this year I will retire at age 81. My focus for 40 years has been on prostate cancer and prostate diseases. Here's my take on what many of you find challenging.

1. Each individual is a UBO (unique biologic organism) and given your different ages, different meds and supplements, along with variable diet and life styles, it is not reasonable to equate your health status.
2. The essence of good medicine is to understand, as best as possible, the status of each individual. Status is the biological reality coupled of that person coupled with all the ramifications of mental health, diet and lifestyle as well as genetics and epi-genetics. Without a proper assessment of status, optimal strategy is essential some level of speculation. The rule of thumb, therefore, is ACCURATE STATUS ➜➜➜ OPTIMAL STRATEGY AND THERAPEUTIC INDEX.
3. The use of erythropoietin (EPO) should never be taken lightly. More is not better and in all of biology it is usually the Goldilocks Principle (GLP) that works best for each person: not too hot, not too cold, but just right. If you look at biological systems, key words are balance and communication. The cross-talk between every body system is real. I call this SAIN (Systems Analysis & Integrity Networking) medicine. Currently, the way medicine is practiced is insane.
4. Those of you on multiple meds and supplements should keep track of your status using some form of flow sheet. If there was a way to do a Zoom conference vis-à-vis Nelson, I could share this approach with you. A flow sheet is crucial since it involves the principles of (a) cause and effect, (b) chronology of events, and (c) titration (balancing dose vs. desired effect). An example of the latter and how it is not used is the typical advise to patients regarding taking Vitamin D. Take 1,000 IU/d says the MD-- but he or she never obtains the lab test to ascertain the serum level of (25-OH)-D3 and whether or not it is adequate. We do the same biologically ridiculous thing with aspirin (ASA) when we use a "one size fits all" approach and advise everyone to take 81 mg/d. Some people with activated coagulation systems require more than that to optimize platelet aggregation and adhesion and others may be very sensitive to ASA and require less or perhaps no ASA at all. Again: "status."

So for the guys on many meds, including testosterone, EPO, HCG, etc, the testing of not only the hematocrit (HCT) but also a consideration to check serum viscosity, and to measure estradiol given the HCG use and to realize that an elevation in estradiol has many biological effects, including salt and water retention. And not knowing about diet and what foods are inherently high in Na+ (sodium) and the effect that might have on exercise tolerance and on pulmonary function is important. And not only that but E2 will stimulate prolactin and have many adverse effects on health in the basically healthy male but even moreso in men with prostate diseases.

Real medicine is an art and that art has become endangered. The time spent between MD and patient is now limited as physicians devolve into employees of health corporations whose bottom line is the bottom line.

With all this said, I would say that the level of intellect shown on this site is way up there compared to the many forums I have checked out over the last 30 years.

Amazing post Dr.!!!

 

[Charliebizz]

I’m not nearly as intelligent as you guys with studies and in The medical world as a whole. But just looking at it with basic logic it’s easy to see raising your blood counts past what’s normal (can) pose a risk. The fact @RobRoy acts as if it’s no risk is mind boggling. Take me for instance. When I had low t one of the first symptoms I had is I was borderline anemic. Never knew why until I got t levels checked. I went on a decent dose of testosterone and my cbc went right back into a healthy range. The more I push my t levels the higher they get. Now ive been getting labs since I was a teen because I had Lymes. When I was a kid and otherwise healthy and assume my t levels were great(based of the shape I was in and sex drive and erections) my rbcs were within the middle of the clinical range. While I do not have testosterone labs to prove it it’s safe to say they were good especially becamuse I know the exact time I started to develop low testosterone. My point is it’s not “optimal“ to have out of the range rbc. Is it “performance enhancing” sure. But optimal if beg to differ.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I feel like not sleeping well on HRT is most likely due to HRT using up more micronutrients, and leaving the person with micronutrient deficiencies. Guys have no idea how important it is to give the body all
the micronutrients it needs everyday. I’d put money on ur sleep improving if u got most of ur protein for the day from red meat, and ate 0.75-1g of protein per 1lb of bodyweight, increased ur pastured egg yolk intake, regularly consumed beef liver, and supplemented with magnesium and vitamin D.

I’ve tried every protocol there is, as far as HRT goes, and I push the limits a decent amount, and I’ve always slept well on HRT these past 10 years. I personally chalk that up to being a health freak and eating such a healthy/ micronutrient packed diet everyday. Don’t mean to derail my own thread lol, but hopefully those tips help u out sleep wise, if ur willing to implement them. Sleep is literally everything, so I hope u can get that issue figured out

I'm with you Gman86, I have never had sleep issues no matter how much or how little testosterone I take. I have been tracking my sleep quality since I go the Fitbit and it is also much better than the average or guys my age.

 

[Charliebizz]

I'm with you Gman86, I have never had sleep issues no matter how much or how little testosterone I take. I have been tracking my sleep quality since I go the Fitbit and it is also much better than the average or guys my age.

I bet you that’s the no alcohol!! one thing I haven’t been able to stop fully. I don’t drink a lot but have a few drinks once or twice a week and it def fucks with my sleep. I actually sleep good according to the watch the night of. But after it’s all fucked up.

 

[Gman86]

I bet you that’s the no alcohol!! one thing I haven’t been able to stop fully. I don’t drink a lot but have a few drinks once or twice a week and it def fucks with my sleep. I actually sleep good according to the watch the night of. But after it’s all fucked up.

Could have something to do with it. I rarely drink. Like a couple times a year