Does nandrolone contribute to (or cause) depression?

[madman]

So u were doing about 187mg test and 140mg of deca per week before. Sorry, it’s a pet peeve of mine when people don’t just put their weekly total dosages lol. It’s just easier to understand when we put our total weekly dosages and then just say how many injections we break that up into each week, imo.

So now ur currently gonna try 140mg test and about 47mg of deca per week. I think that’s a good starting dose of deca to see what the minimum effective dose that relieves ur joint pain is.

140mg of deca might have just been a bit too much with the 187mg of test before. I personally am using 125mg of deca along with my test dose. I also use 100mg of primo to keep E2 in check, and use 1.25mg of selegiline sublingually EOD to try and keep prolactin down. Not sure if it’s actually keeping prolactin down or not at this dosage, but it has other benefits to it, so even if it isn’t, it’s probably still worth taking. Prolactin was around 6 on my last set of labs, so think the primo and selegiline combo are doing what I want them to do. Primo is definitely keeping E2 down, I know that much.

But hopefully u continue to feel great on ur current protocol, and u end up finding the minimum effective dose of deca soon that alleviates ur joint pain like the higher dose did. Primo and selegiline might be a few things to look into if u end up feeling depressed and libido drops tho, before giving up on deca completely. Unfortunately u have to get primo UGL, but luckily selegiline can be prescribed, or u can just get it off of research chemical sites like alldaychemist

What happened to it's all about balance bullS**T.

You jumped on the higher-end dosed 200mg T/week protocol from the get-go running that absurd EOD trough TT 1600-1800 ng/dL and FT through the roof!

Let alone drove your SHBG into the ground on that T/ND/Oxo protocol.

Last I hear you lowered your T dose to 160 mg/week split EOD.

You were overmedicated on T from the get-go and now you are bangin' T with 125 mg ND and 100 mg Primo.....LMFAO!

Highly doubtful you are on <100 mg T/week.

Even if you were injecting 60-100 mg T/week your weekly dose of androgens is well over HRT.

If you are still caught up on that higher-end dose of T (150-200 mg) then your weekly
dose of androgens is absurd!

You're still hangin' out on all those other BUMASS forums I see!

 

[Gman86]

What happened to it's all about balance bullS**T.

You jumped on the higher-end dosed 200mg T/week protocol from the get-go running that absurd EOD trough TT 1600-1800 ng/dL and FT through the roof!

Let alone drove your SHBG into the ground on that T/ND/Oxo protocol.

Last I hear you lowered your T dose to 160 mg/week split EOD.

You were overmedicated on T from the get-go and now you are bangin' T with 125 mg ND and 100 mg Primo.....LMFAO!

Highly doubtful you are on <100 mg T/week.

Even if you were injecting 60-100 mg T/week your weekly dose of androgens is well over HRT.

If you are still caught up on that higher-end dose of T (150-200 mg) then your weekly
dose of androgens is absurd!

You're still hangin' out on all those other BUMASS forums I see!

Thanks for the kind words and support, as usual lol. Everyone has to do what is the best balance for them and their lives and their goals. My balance of everything that’s important to me is gonna be different than everyone else’s. I never claimed to be running standard HRT. I feel like I definitely push the limits with my protocols. But it’s what I feel best at, what keeps me happy and allows me to be positive and nice to everyone around me, and what helps me perform and recover the way I want. And all my labs look good and vital signs are all within a healthy range. I’m not saying anyone else should run the protocols that I do, it’s just what works for me personally. I’m the one happy in real life and very supportive and respectful to everyone on this forum, and ur the one always angry and judging and criticizing others. Clearly what I’m doing is working for me, and whatever ur doing is doing the opposite. HRT should help make us better members of society and better people to others around us, not make us treat people how u treat others here on the forum and act like an angry teenager that didn’t get enough love as a child

 

[madman]

Thanks for the kind words and support, as usual lol. Everyone has to do what is the best balance for them and their lives and their goals. My balance of everything that’s important to me is gonna be different than everyone else’s. I never claimed to be running standard HRT. I feel like I definitely push the limits with my protocols. But it’s what I feel best at, what keeps me happy and allows me to be positive and nice to everyone around me, and what helps me perform and recover the way I want. And all my labs look good and vital signs are all within a healthy range. I’m not saying anyone else should run the protocols that I do, it’s just what works for me personally. I’m the one happy in real life and very supportive and respectful to everyone on this forum, and ur the one always angry and judging and criticizing others. Clearly what I’m doing is working for me, and whatever ur doing is doing the opposite. HRT should help make us better members of society and better people to others around us, not make us treat people how u treat others here on the forum and act like an angry teenager that didn’t get enough love as a child

Sure they do within reason eh?

Yet you are always switching your protocols let alone trying to manage this that and the other.

6 years in and still at it!

Standard HRT f**k that you were brainwashed from the get-go!

Easily swayed I say.

High T bandwagon then it's all bout ND now you're caught up on Primo as the next best thing trying to manage your e2.

No one told you that you could get by with much less?

No one told you that it is okay to lower your high-end T dose when adding in ND let alone another compound?

High-dose T + 125 mg ND + 100 mg Primo is an absurd weekly dose of androgens for the so-called HRT/optimal bullS**T.

Best balance LMFAO.

What your 35 with beat-up shoulders already.....ND will not save you!

You weigh a buck 55.....where did the high-dose T/ND/Oxo or better yet T/ND/Primo get you?

Gotta love it.

Being a kiss-ass does not run in my blood son!

 

[tareload]

Sure they do within reason eh?

Yet you are always switching your protocols let alone trying to manage this that and the other.

6 years in and still at it!

Standard HRT f**k that you were brainwashed from the get-go!

Easily swayed I say.

High T bandwagon then it's all bout ND now you're caught up on Primo as the next best thing trying to manage your e2.

No one told you that you could get by with much less?

No one told you that it is okay to lower your high-end T dose when adding in ND let alone another compound?

High-dose T + 125 mg ND + 100 mg Primo is an absurd weekly dose of androgens for the so-called HRT/optimal bullS**T.

Best balance LMFAO.

What your 35 with beat-up shoulders already.....ND will not save you!

You weigh a buck 55.....where did the high-dose T/ND/Oxo or better yet T/ND/Primo get you?

Gotta love it.

Being a kiss-ass does not run in my blood son!

What is your TRT/HRT regimen currently? How has it evolved since you started?

TT/~fT peak and trough? SHBG?

 

[madman]

What is your TRT/HRT regimen currently? How has it evolved since you started?

TT/~fT peak and trough? SHBG?

Principles of Testosterone and hCG Injection Technique

What do you use now? I'm looking at moving from 23g x 1.5" to 27g x 1.25", or maybe even 29g x 0.5". I inject med. into quads. 27 gauge 1/2 inch on shoulders

www.excelmale.com

150 mg T/week (75 mg every 3.5 days) + 500 IU hCG (Pregnyl) strictly sub-q.

Been consistent over the years as I feel great overall blood markers remain healthy.

 

[tareload]

Principles of Testosterone and hCG Injection Technique

What do you use now? I'm looking at moving from 23g x 1.5" to 27g x 1.25", or maybe even 29g x 0.5". I inject med. into quads. 27 gauge 1/2 inch on shoulders

www.excelmale.com

150 mg T/week (75 mg every 3.5 days) + 500 IU hCG (Pregnyl) strictly sub-q.

Been consistent over the years as I feel great overall blood markers remain healthy.

Thanks @madman. Prior post on TT/fT trough for madman.

Principles of Testosterone and hCG Injection Technique

What do you use now? I'm looking at moving from 23g x 1.5" to 27g x 1.25", or maybe even 29g x 0.5". I inject med. into quads. 27 gauge 1/2 inch on shoulders

www.excelmale.com

 

[Pacman]

Again post blood work (lab/assay used)!

What was your trough TT/FT level on 80 mg T every 3 days (186 mg/week)?

Got tested via Labcorp.

Here are my most recent blood test results from doing a full month of Test 186mg/week -and- Deca 140mg/wk (this is trough, the day of injection before injection):

	Results	Out of Range	Range
Testosterone		>1500 ng/dL	264-916 ng/dL
Free Testosterone	22.2 pg/mL		8.7-25.1 pg/mL
DHT	74 ng/dL		30-85 ng/dL
Estradiol, Sensitive	28.2 pg/mL		8.0-35.0 pg/mL
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum	29.1 nmol/L		16.5-55.9 nmol/L

My free T seems to be super low compared to the Total T?


Back in February, 6 months ago (was doing also 186mg/week of Testosterone ONLY split up evenly every 3 days), my results looked like this (trough, day of injection, prior to injection):

	Results	Out of Range	Range
Testosterone		1260 ng/dL	264-916 ng/dL
Free Testosterone		29.2 pg/mL	8.7-25.1 pg/mL
DHT	60 ng/dL		30-85 ng/dL
Estradiol, Sensitive	21.0 pg/mL		8.0-35.0 pg/mL
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum	24.4 nmol/L		16.5-55.9 nmol/L

What do the labs indicate, both by themselves and compared to one another?


Side note:
My shoulder has started bothering me again, I want to raise the Deca dose. Should I raise only Deca slightly, or is it better to raise both T and D slightly so ratio remains the same?

 

[tareload]

Got tested via LabCorp.

Here are my most recent blood test results from doing a full month of Test 186mg/week -and- Deca 140mg/wk (this is trough, the day of injection before injection):

	Results	Out of Range	Range
Testosterone		>1500 ng/dL	264-916 ng/dL
Free Testosterone	22.2 pg/mL		8.7-25.1 pg/mL
DHT	74 ng/dL		30-85 ng/dL
Estradiol, Sensitive	28.2 pg/mL		8.0-35.0 pg/mL
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum	29.1 nmol/L		16.5-55.9 nmol/L

My free T seems to be super low compared to the Total T?




Back in February, 6 months ago (was doing also 186mg/week of Testosterone ONLY split up evenly every 3 days), my results looked like this (trough, day of injection, prior to injection):

	Results	Out of Range	Range
Testosterone		1260 ng/dL	264-916 ng/dL
Free Testosterone		29.2 pg/mL	8.7-25.1 pg/mL
DHT	60 ng/dL		30-85 ng/dL
Estradiol, Sensitive	21.0 pg/mL		8.0-35.0 pg/mL
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum	24.4 nmol/L		16.5-55.9 nmol/L

What do the labs indicate, both by themselves and compared to one another?




Side note:
My shoulder has started bothering me again, I want to raise the Deca dose. Should I raise only Deca slightly, or is it better to raise both T and D slightly so ratio remains the same?

Unfortunately you aren't testing with LC/MS-MS for TT (you are using ECLIA) and the fT measurement is the direct FT (officially an enzyme immunoassay). Hence, you'll never be able to make sense of what's going on in an accurate way. The nandrolone most likely interferes with the TT measurement and as @madman has preached the direct fT assay is not reliable.

Instead of this:

140103: Testosterone, Free, Direct With Total Testosterone | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Direct With Total Testosterone

www.labcorp.com

You would need to use this:

500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences)

www.labcorp.com

Best we have until the CDC Host program educates us on what free testosterone actually is.

@madman told you all this here:

Does nandrolone contribute to (or cause) depression?

I added nandrolone officially to my regimen about one month ago (I have tried it in the past but never very long). The purpose of adding it was to assist in resolving joint pain, and it works PERFECT!! 10 out 10, joint pain is nearly non-existent! I am doing physical therapy in addition...

www.excelmale.com

Unfortunately his great advice gets ignored way too much.

 

[Pacman]

Unfortunately you aren't testing with LC/MS-MS for TT (you are using ECLIA) and the fT measurement is the direct FT (officially an enzyme immunoassay). Hence, you'll never be able to make sense of what's going on in an accurate way. The nandrolone most likely interferes with the TT measurement and as @madman has preached the direct fT assay is not reliable.

Instead of this:

140103: Testosterone, Free, Direct With Total Testosterone | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Direct With Total Testosterone

www.labcorp.com

You would need to use this:

500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences)

www.labcorp.com

Best we have until the CDC Host program educates us on what free testosterone actually is.

Are you saying I am taking inaccurate blood tests? I don't understand the difference between those two. Why would my clinic choose the less accurate of the two options?

 

[tareload]

Are you saying I am taking inaccurate blood tests? I don't understand the difference between those two. Why would my clinic choose the less accurate of the two options?

Yes, inaccurate in your case with the TT and the fT (EIA) is sort of a windsock.

ECLIA TT doesn't have the range you are needing here with your supra TT/fT protocol. The nandrolone sends this over the edge meaning you are just collecting garbage data.

Why would your clinic do this? There is a distribution of knowledge content in the HRT space. Your clinic is on the left side of that distribution. Hang in there. Knowledge is power.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

OP, have you tried the usual suspects for your shoulder, specifically BPC, TB500, DMSO, and the other things in the Fixes for Joint Issues thread? I've had a lot of shoulder issues myself which are now almost entirely healed, but it can take a long time to heal. One of my shoulder took about a year to heal and the other one took about six months. I had to be very careful not to re-injure them during the rehab process.

Fixes for Joint Issues: A list of Some Basics

Every few months or so, a post seems to come along saying something along the lines of “should I do PRP or Stem Cells or Nandrolone or anti-inflammatory injections or [insert something exotic here] for joint issues”. While all of these and others likely have their place, they are often either...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Gman86]

@Pacman ur basically doing around 50mg of deca atm, and 140mg of test. I would just up ur deca to 75mg, and u’d still be right around a 2:1 ratio of test:deca

 

[Pacman]

OP, have you tried the usual suspects for your shoulder, specifically BPC, TB500, DMSO, and the other things in the Fixes for Joint Issues thread? I've had a lot of shoulder issues myself which are now almost entirely healed, but it can take a long time to heal. One of my shoulder took about a year to heal and the other one took about six months. I had to be very careful not to re-injure them during the rehab process.

Fixes for Joint Issues: A list of Some Basics

Every few months or so, a post seems to come along saying something along the lines of “should I do PRP or Stem Cells or Nandrolone or anti-inflammatory injections or [insert something exotic here] for joint issues”. While all of these and others likely have their place, they are often either...

www.excelmale.com

BPC, yes (although not for very long). The other two, no. I am a bit apprehensive in regards to TB-500, as based on what I read it has some potential to contribute to cancer (I did limited research on that one, because the moment I saw that potential link for cancer I wrote it off)...

My personal situation with my shoulder is a little bit different though, since the primary source of my pain is neuropathic in nature (cervical radiculopathy, pinched nerve C6+C7). What currently works for me is physical therapy exercises (help in general but not enough to be completely satisifed) and chiropractic treatment on my neck (but only for temporary relief, pain is reduced immediately by 60% and grip strength comes back).

And because it is neuropathic, I get so much pain in my shoulder even with movements/positions that do not directly involve it!!! (e.g. BB back squats if the bar puts any pressure on my upper traps, SDLs, lounging too long etc.)

Nandrolone made a night and day difference for me. I was blown away by how well it worked. It didn't completely solve it, but it took away 98% of the pain as long as "I behaved". And when I would "misbehave" (engage in aggravating movements), my pain would still only be about HALF of where it would be without it. Only issue is the depression it caused me. So I am trying to find a middle ground here.

I do have tissue damage as well though (torn labrum, osteoarthritis AC joint, joint laxity), so maybe BPC and the other would help with that?

If I can ask, what specific issues did you have in your shoulder? What exactly was your protocol for healing it? And how is it today? Back 100% full function? And also do you lift weights with exercises that directly challenge your shoulder (lateral raises, presses, etc etc)...?

@Pacman ur basically doing around 50mg of deca atm, and 140mg of test. I would just up ur deca to 75mg, and u’d still be right around a 2:1 ratio of test:deca

This is a good idea, I will increase only the deca slightly, and see how I feel over the next week or so.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

BPC, yes (although not for very long). The other two, no. I am a bit apprehensive in regards to TB-500, as based on what I read it has some potential to contribute to cancer (I did limited research on that one, because the moment I saw that potential link for cancer I wrote it off)...

My personal situation with my shoulder is a little bit different though, since the primary source of my pain is neuropathic in nature (cervical radiculopathy, pinched nerve C6+C7). What currently works for me is physical therapy exercises (help in general but not enough to be completely satisifed) and chiropractic treatment on my neck (but only for temporary relief, pain is reduced immediately by 60% and grip strength comes back).

And because it is neuropathic, I get so much pain in my shoulder even with movements/positions that do not directly involve it!!! (e.g. BB back squats if the bar puts any pressure on my upper traps, SDLs, lounging too long etc.)

Nandrolone made a night and day difference for me. I was blown away by how well it worked. It didn't completely solve it, but it took away 98% of the pain as long as "I behaved". And when I would "misbehave" (engage in aggravating movements), my pain would still only be about HALF of where it would be without it. Only issue is the depression it caused me. So I am trying to find a middle ground here.

I do have tissue damage as well though (torn labrum, osteoarthritis AC joint, joint laxity), so maybe BPC and the other would help with that?

If I can ask, what specific issues did you have in your shoulder? What exactly was your protocol for healing it? And how is it today? Back 100% full function? And also do you lift weights with exercises that directly challenge your shoulder (lateral raises, presses, etc etc)...?


This is a good idea, I will increase only the deca slightly, and see how I feel over the next week or so.

A few thoughts,

I don’t have any magic answer but an inversion table helped my back/neuro pain a lot, however my issue was in my lower back.

For my shoulders, my rehab consisted of: very light movements to get blood in the joint that produced no pain, mobility work, partial range of motion work through a range of motion that did not hurt, use of single-arm dumbbells to work my good shoulder without stress on my bad shoulder, BPC, TB500, DMSO, GH stimulating compounds, IR light/heat, not sleeping on my bad shoulder, fanatical attention to form, praying for wisdom, and time. I don’t know what the exact issue was but it seemed to be the same in both shoulders (at different times). Thankfully, the first shoulder I injured is at 99% and the other is back to 90%. It took longer for me to get range of motion back than for the pain to recede. I do all forms of shoulder movements, presses, pulls, etc. with the exception of overhead squats which I have never had the flexibility to do.

I would not even consider back squats in your situation. I did them for many years and in retrospect, there is nothing they did that a combination of front squats, leg presses, step-ups, hip-belt squats, trap bar deadlifts, and leg curls/extensions won’t do, but with much lower risk to the spine, knees and shoulders.

In your situation, I would be concerned about the N masking the pain. Even with Ibuprofen, I had to be very careful not to re-injure myself and you likely want some pain signals as a warning.

Regarding TB500, AFAIK the cancer concern is related to its promotion of new blood vessel growth and its use in cancer cells, however as a naturally occurring compound, cancer is able to up-regulate both of those whether you supplement with it or not. That said, I would try other things first. Whatever the solution is, it is likely a combination of things

 

[Gman86]

BPC, yes (although not for very long). The other two, no. I am a bit apprehensive in regards to TB-500, as based on what I read it has some potential to contribute to cancer (I did limited research on that one, because the moment I saw that potential link for cancer I wrote it off)...

My personal situation with my shoulder is a little bit different though, since the primary source of my pain is neuropathic in nature (cervical radiculopathy, pinched nerve C6+C7). What currently works for me is physical therapy exercises (help in general but not enough to be completely satisifed) and chiropractic treatment on my neck (but only for temporary relief, pain is reduced immediately by 60% and grip strength comes back).

And because it is neuropathic, I get so much pain in my shoulder even with movements/positions that do not directly involve it!!! (e.g. BB back squats if the bar puts any pressure on my upper traps, SDLs, lounging too long etc.)

Nandrolone made a night and day difference for me. I was blown away by how well it worked. It didn't completely solve it, but it took away 98% of the pain as long as "I behaved". And when I would "misbehave" (engage in aggravating movements), my pain would still only be about HALF of where it would be without it. Only issue is the depression it caused me. So I am trying to find a middle ground here.

I do have tissue damage as well though (torn labrum, osteoarthritis AC joint, joint laxity), so maybe BPC and the other would help with that?

If I can ask, what specific issues did you have in your shoulder? What exactly was your protocol for healing it? And how is it today? Back 100% full function? And also do you lift weights with exercises that directly challenge your shoulder (lateral raises, presses, etc etc)...?


This is a good idea, I will increase only the deca slightly, and see how I feel over the next week or so.

Still no depression or libido drop this time around with deca? Still feeling good?

 

[bixt]

150 mg T/week (75 mg every 3.5 days) + 500 IU hCG (Pregnyl) strictly sub-q.

Been consistent over the years as I feel great overall blood markers remain healthy.

hCG 500IU twice weekly and never used an AI.

trough
TT 900 ng/dL
FT 30-34 ng/dL
SHBG 32 nmol/L
Estradiol 39 pg/mL

Off topic, but I sincerely would love to know your peak FT 12-24 hours after your injection.

(I'm suspecting your peak is "thru the roof". Especially if you are using a compounded vial with 20% BB causing a large spike. [Xyosted data on half life does NOT count for compounded cyp]).

 

[madman]

Off topic, but I sincerely would love to know your peak FT 12-24 hours after your injection.

(I'm suspecting your peak is "thru the roof". Especially if you are using a compounded vial with 20% BB causing a large spike. [Xyosted data on half life does NOT count for compounded cyp]).

Why would I waste my time with compounded let alone UGL testosterone, when my big pharma T is covered by the higher-up's O.H.I.P. (Ontario Health Insurance Plan)?

Pay nada!

Trough TT tends to run between 800-900 ng/dL.

Peak low 1200s.

I inject Delatestryl (TE) strictly sub-q (75 mg every 3.5 days).


DOSAGE FORMS, COMPOSITION, AND PACKAGING

DELATESTRYL is a sterile, oily testosterone enanthate solution for intramuscular use. It is available in a potency of 200 mg per mL formulated in sesame oil with 0.5% chlorobutanol as a preservative. It is available in glass vials containing 5 mL, sealed with latex-free stoppers.

 

[madman]

Off topic, but I sincerely would love to know your peak FT 12-24 hours after your injection.

(I'm suspecting your peak is "thru the roof". Especially if you are using a compounded vial with 20% BB causing a large spike. [Xyosted data on half life does NOT count for compounded cyp]).

Once weekly (TC) strictly IM!

Variance in Peak and Trough T Levels in Men Using Intramuscular T Injections

MP85-14 VARIANCE IN PEAK AND TROUGH TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN MEN USING INTRAMUSCULAR TESTOSTERONE Bruno Nascimento*, Helen L Bernie, Elizabeth Schofield, John P. Mulhall, New York, NY INTRODUCTION AND OBJECTIVES In men using intramuscular testosterone (IM T), clinical experience shows us that...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

Off topic, but I sincerely would love to know your peak FT 12-24 hours after your injection.

(I'm suspecting your peak is "thru the roof". Especially if you are using a compounded vial with 20% BB causing a large spike. [Xyosted data on half life does NOT count for compounded cyp]).

Delatestryl (Testosterone Enanthate)

DOSAGE FORMS, COMPOSITION, AND PACKAGING

DELATESTRYL is a sterile, oily testosterone enanthate solution for intramuscular use. It is available in a potency of 200 mg per mL formulated in sesame oil with 0.5% chlorobutanol as a preservative. It is available in glass vials containing 5 mL, sealed with latex-free stoppers.


Nonmedicinal ingredients: chlorobutanol, sesame oil








Depo-Testosterone (Testosterone Cypionate)

Nonmedicinal ingredients: benzyl alcohol, benzyl benzoate, cottonseed oil

 

[tareload]

@bixt

Principles of Testosterone and hCG Injection Technique

What do you use now? I'm looking at moving from 23g x 1.5" to 27g x 1.25", or maybe even 29g x 0.5". I inject med. into quads. 27 gauge 1/2 inch on shoulders

www.excelmale.com