Does anyone use Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) ?

[Wilson7]

MM, I disagree as well. When I was taking 200 mg N every two weeks I was 250 at 10% BF, 6'2", strongest in my life I looked like I was taking alot more, when I switched back to just T I lost about 15 lbs of lean over the next year. I responded very well to what many would consider a low dose. I suppose it depends on the goals, GBV has good point. Too many think they need to start at a much higher dose, if you have to go there so be it, but much can be done at a lower dose with a solid diet and training or at least see how you respond before going to a higher dose.

 

[madman]

I strongly disagree with this, and I think it's thinking like this that pushes people to assume they need higher than necessary doses of just about everything, and the risks and side effects that come with those higher doses. Once one has reached their genetic maximum, and if that someone is a high responder, then micro doses may allow modest gains that would be unlikely without an anabolic boost. No, I don't have any studies to cite ( I wish there were some on this) however as two data points, the supposed techniques used by tested athletes are essentially micro doses (i.e. T troches) and the early days of steroids often used baby doses by today's standards: I believe the original suggested dose of D-bol was one 3mg tablet per day. I'm well aware that many on other forums believe what you said, however if you read the muscle and strength gains they believe they should be getting, those gains are IMO and IME totally excessive and compressed into an unrealistic timeframe. While gains for gains sake may in some cases be pointless, gains that aid in injury recovery or prevention, or performance in a otherwise healthy sport are IMO not pointless.

Let's get one thing straight here I am not telling any to use such doses 200+ mg/week!

I am simply stating that if ones reason is to use nandrolone for joint pain than 50-100 mg/week is the dose needed.

If ones goal is to add muscle tissue than 50-100 mg will result in minimal gains.

To notice any sort of modest gains when using nandrolone 200 mg/week would be the minimum dose needed.

If we are speaking in terms of newly build proteins as in actin/myosin than 50-100 mg/week of nandrolone would lead to minimal gains.

Most that tend to think they are gaining more muscle than they really have on such a low dose would be due to intracellular water stores.

As you should know a muscle cell is roughly 75-80 percent water, 15-20 percent proteins, 1 percent glycogen, 1 percent lipids, 1 percent mineral salts.

Testosterone/AAS will all increase retention of sodium, chloride, water, potassium, calcium, and inorganic phosphates.....which will lead to increased intracellular water stores in the muscle cell......let alone when using the aromatizing steroids it can lead to high estradiol which in many cases can result in increased retention of extra-cellular water stores (bloat/water retention).

Even when looking at AAS that do not aromatize to estrogen such as Winstrol their will be increased intracellular water stores in the muscle cells.

You hear it all the time even with men using trt doses of T.....claiming they have put on a fair amount of muscle mass and even though there is an increase in newly built proteins (actin/myosin) if one is strength training and following the proper diet a large part of those gains will be intracellular water stores especially when first starting trt.

Add in the fact that some men even on trt doses can also retain a fair amount of extra-cellular water as in bloat/water retention due to high estradiol.

Again dose of nandrolone in the 50-100 mg/week range.....dry gains will be minimal.

Most that use nandrolone to add any appreciable amount of muscle to their frame are using 200 mg/week minimum and as I stated to truly reap the tissue building benefits of nandrolone one would need to use doses in the 400-600 mg/week range.

I will definitely say that in cases where one has a health related issue resulting in muscle wasting than they would benefit from low dose nandrolone to a far greater extend compared to your average joe.

I have been in the game along time and had grown up around many friends who have used/abused testosterone/AAS for muscle/strength enhancement let alone some friends who competed in the amateur ranks.

Not even your average joe/weekend warrior is using less than 200 mg/week of nandrolone let alone 50-100 mg/week when looking to increase muscle.


You stated....."While gains for gains sake may in some cases be pointless, gains that aid in injury recovery or prevention, or performance in a otherwise healthy sport are IMO not pointless"

Agree 100%

You are still overlooking the point when I stated in my previous post 50-100 mg/week of nandrolone will result in minimal tissue gains (actin/myosin).

 

[madman]

Hmmmm, yes I’m on 150 mg TRT + 250 mg Deca per week. I saw Virgil who said he had run it for years, recommend 200 mg per week. But perhaps I misunderstood what he was referring to, as you just pointed out above. A friend of mine shared his experience running 200 mg for 14 weeks, and another said he did 300 mg for 8 weeks.

I’ll have to do some additional research.

A common staple when trying to add muscle bulk in men with any health issue related to muscle wasting is 200 mg/week testosterone + 200 mg/week nandrolone.

Back in the early days would have been considered a low dose cycle!

 

[Gman86]

Does nandrolone raise testosterone levels? And if so, does anyone know roughly how much a low dose of 50-100mg/ week would raise levels? Sorry if this has already been answered.

 

[madman]

Does nandrolone raise testosterone levels? And if so, does anyone know roughly how much a low dose of 50-100mg/ week would raise levels? Sorry if this has already been answered.

Does nandrolone raise testosterone levels?
If using the direct chemiluminescent immunoassays when testing TT nandrolone can falsely inflate your number.

To avoid such when using testosterone + nandrolone use the most accurate testing method for TT liquid chromatography-tandem MS (LC-MS/MS).

And if so, does anyone know roughly how much a low dose of 50-100mg/ week would raise levels?

No one could tell you such just as no one can say what T level one will hit on said dose of T!

 

[madman]

I strongly disagree with this, and I think it's thinking like this that pushes people to assume they need higher than necessary doses of just about everything, and the risks and side effects that come with those higher doses. Once one has reached their genetic maximum, and if that someone is a high responder, then micro doses may allow modest gains that would be unlikely without an anabolic boost. No, I don't have any studies to cite ( I wish there were some on this) however as two data points, the supposed techniques used by tested athletes are essentially micro doses (i.e. T troches) and the early days of steroids often used baby doses by today's standards: I believe the original suggested dose of D-bol was one 3mg tablet per day. I'm well aware that many on other forums believe what you said, however if you read the muscle and strength gains they believe they should be getting, those gains are IMO and IME totally excessive and compressed into an unrealistic timeframe. While gains for gains sake may in some cases be pointless, gains that aid in injury recovery or prevention, or performance in a otherwise healthy sport are IMO not pointless.

the supposed techniques used by tested athletes are essentially micro doses (i.e. T troches)

- what would that even matter if it were even true.....off season is when the muscle/strength gains are made and that is not happening using micro doses of any injectable or oral steroid

and the early days of steroids often used baby doses by today's standards: I believe the original suggested dose of D-bol was one 3mg tablet per day.

- by today's standards sure

- even in Arnolds era it has been said that on average testosterone was used in the 200-400 mg/week range, nandrolone in the 200-400 mg/week range, d-bol much higher than 3 mg and some were said to consume fairly high doses

- even back than no one was only using 100 mg/week of testosterone.....let alone nandrolone

- hope you are familiar with the GDR doping program.....athletes were unknowingly using fairly high doses back than of not only oral c-17 alpha alkylated steroids such as Turinabol (Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone) which was a staple.....but various testosterone esters and nandrolone.....simply because the strength coaches knew higher doses where more effective for muscle/strength gains let alone recovery from the extreme training regimes imposed on the athletes.....WIN at all costs they say!

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I think we're talking past each other here. Of course higher doses will bring larger results (assuming diet and training are on point, which for most it's not, IMO). My point is that those who seek an anabolic boost and who are maxed out on their abilities without one, may be very satisfied and pleasantly surprised with doses that are laughably low for the typical gym bro. If not, then there is always the option to adjust upward. One will not know if they are a high-responder or can get what they need at a low dose without trying the lower doses first. Also, another aspect of optimizing dose risk/reward is to concentrate the dose in the anabolic window after particularly intense activity. This IMO makes long-esters like Deca poor choices in comparison to shorter compounds like Oxandrolone or NPP (if someone has access to it) although for people working intense manual labor jobs, then Deca might be a more reasonable choice. With a long ester like Deca, you essentially have it in your system during parts of the week when you (hopefully, if you're getting adequate rest), are less able to benefit from it whereas a short compound can be dosed 1-3 times per week to align with activity, which further lowers the overall dose . All this assumes someone is trying to optimize all-around performance, healthspan and longevity with essentially zero risk. Outsized size and strength gains might obviously require a more aggressive approach, as you described.

 

[gaz7718]

Thinking of this addition to help with joints and potential other wider reported benefits at 100mg a week to complement the 150mg of test ethanate. My question is whether this might boost t levels too high by adding the 100mg of deca, or should the test dose be reduced to compensate?

 

[Gman86]

Thinking of this addition to help with joints and potential other wider reported benefits at 100mg a week to complement the 150mg of test ethanate. My question is whether this might boost t levels too high by adding the 100mg of deca, or should the test dose be reduced to compensate?

Great question. Wondering this myself. Here’s a great video that came out recently with dr Lichten. He is a huge proponent of deca, as well as Winstrol, with a lot of his TRT patients. Check it out. He goes over deca quite a bit in it

 

[gaz7718]

Interesting article. Thanks for posting

 

[JRS1]

o.k. so....... I'll admit that I had to read up a lot about NPP versus Decanoate. Some of the "bro science" behind reasons for taking NPP have been quicker to take effect, less bloat, overall less side effects, and just a perceived better compound than the longer ester. My own reasoning, which is also what the bro's use as a reason, is that I had no idea how my body would respond to a 19-Nor compound.....

After just 1 week I feel that I did have increased anabolism (200 mg total per week), and had I continued, I would/could have put on some very legit muscle mass.

However, in spite of "prophylactic" Cabergoline and ample Arimidex, my NIPPLES only (no glandular hypertrophy, no sensititivity, no puffiness), were as I can only describe as "Perky". The nipple only, not areola. They just stood out, as if after a "titty twister" or being cold. Like a woman, turned on.

So, after my last injection of 70 mg NPP (on Friday), I'm calling it quits. It has a 2.5 day t1/2, so it should rapidly clear my system this week. It's just not worth it to me, and I've experimented a bit with other "compounds" in the past, but nothing has done this to my nipples.

Speculation: The one thing which I am willing to concede is that the NPP may have brought on Nandrolone changes fast enough to cause this change. Perhaps, Decanoate would not have done this, and of course, EVERYTHING is dose related.

Reading up on the bro forums, it's extremely interesting how each person differs in his response to varying anabolics and androgens. It completely needs to be individualized.

Another issue to keep in mind is to take things slow, keep doses reasonable, and do NOT change too many variables so that you can isolate the causative agent. For me, this time, it is clear that Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (was the old, short lived, commercially available "Durabolin" but discontinued because of need for frequent injections. When Organon came out with longer acting Decanoate ester, then DC'd production of NPP/Durabolin).

Interesting experiment. I'm not advocating experimenting. Indeed I had a good deal of "congnitive dissonance" on this one since I knew I was probably pushing doses a bit high, and that is overall inconsistent with my overall goal of HEALTH first.

In no way am I suggesting that low dose Nandrolone can not be a worthy addition to ones TRT protocol, as Nelson has described in Built To Survive. Perhaps it's all dose related, but also keep in mind that we will all, as unique individuals, respond very differently to different substances.

Anyway, I promised a follow up. There you have it.....

First of all, you were taking cabergoline at 200 mgs a week: no caber is needed at 209 mgs a week. I’ll add that caber is a seriously harsh drug. In fact caber can directly mess with your heart valves. Deca isn’t going to give you LVH in two weeks lmao. Your nipple sensitivity was most likely from shutting down your prolactin levels from the caber, or you were sold testosterone as NPP. Welcome to the underground market. If you are freaked out by taking 209 mgs Deca then just stay away from any aas use. You don’t have the psyche for it.

 

[SilverSurfer]

First of all, you were taking cabergoline at 200 mgs a week: no caber is needed at 209 mgs a week. I’ll add that caber is a seriously harsh drug. In fact caber can directly mess with your heart valves. Deca isn’t going to give you LVH in two weeks lmao. Your nipple sensitivity was most likely from shutting down your prolactin levels from the caber, or you were sold testosterone as NPP. Welcome to the underground market. If you are freaked out by taking 209 mgs Deca then just stay away from any aas use. You don’t have the psyche for it.

Thanks for your insightful bullshit to a poster from 2 1/2 years ago. Piss off.

 

[eyeheartny]

How are folks doing using nandrolone along with testosterone? I just had a consult today with Defy and the PA recommended I try it to help shift the my Free T to E2 ratio without using an AI (which I don't do well on).

 

[Gman86]

How are folks doing using nandrolone along with testosterone? I just had a consult today with Defy and the PA recommended I try it to help shift the my Free T to E2 ratio without using an AI (which I don't do well on).

Whoa, really? This is amazing news! This means that defy really is on the cutting edge of progress. So you didn’t even mention sore joints, or request to try nandrolone? He just offered it all on his own?

Do you mind if I ask who your main doctor is there? Is it dr saya?

also, what dose did he recommend?

 

[eyeheartny]

Whoa, really? This is amazing news! This means that defy really is on the cutting edge of progress. So you didn’t even mention sore joints, or request to try nandrolone? He just offered it all on his own?

Do you mind if I ask who your main doctor is there? Is it dr saya?

also, what dose did he recommend?

Yep. They just recommended it. I did not request it or mention sore joints. The context was in reviewing my labs and their identification that my Free T to E2 ratio was off, even though the numbers were reasonably within range for each given value. It's the first time anyone's identified that as a potential area to investigate.

Since I don't do well on AIs, his suggestion was to trial nandrolone and enanthate at equal doses EOD.

I'm not going to mention dosing since it's so individual and specific to everyone's physiology, but suffice to say that both the nandrolone and testosterone dose are very moderate/modest.

 

[lowTengineer]

their identification that my Free T to E2 ratio was off, even though the numbers were reasonably within range for each given value.

What was your ratio and what did they say it should be?

 

[eyeheartny]

What was your ratio and what did they say it should be?

I'm around 2:1 (E2: Free T) and Mike at Defy suggested it should be closer to 1:1

Do you have thoughts on this/experience/etc?

 

[Cataceous]

I'm around 2:1 (E2: Free T) and Mike at Defy suggested it should be closer to 1:1

Do you have thoughts on this/experience/etc?

It's an interesting metric, but if it's based on directly measured free testosterone by immunoassay then its accuracy will suffer. Better might be to create a standard based on Tru-T calculated free T versus calculated free estradiol. There's not yet a Tru-T equivalent for free estradiol, but the multi-ligand method seems to yield numbers close to actual measurements.

 

[eyeheartny]

It's an interesting metric, but if it's based on directly measured free testosterone by immunoassay then its accuracy will suffer. Better might be to create a standard based on Tru-T calculated free T versus calculated free estradiol. There's not yet a Tru-T equivalent for free estradiol, but the multi-ligand method seems to yield numbers close to actual measurements.

Do you have a link that may help calculate free estradiol based on other values? I found a few journal articles but no ready to go equation.

 

[Gman86]

I'm around 2:1 (E2: Free T) and Mike at Defy suggested it should be closer to 1:1

Do you have thoughts on this/experience/etc?

1:1 makes sense. if E2 is 40, free T should be around 35-40. I would imagine a 1:1 ratio would work very well for most guys.