3 Reasons and Solutions for "Deca Dick"

[Rock H. Johnson]

Anyway to give the abridged version?

Okay I will but my thought is as simple as the titles of the studies.
1) the loss of endothelium vasodilation because less availability of NO, because of NO saturation of the muscles by strenious excercise(aka pump).
2) Overstimulation by N of the dopaminergic system/pathways activating certain parts in the brain, spinal cord and sympathic nervous system. Directly or indirectly involved with reward sensations during pleasurable activities....

Combined a loss of blood flow, erection control and mental reward stimulation.

 

[DS3]

Okay I will but my thought is as simple as the titles of the studies.
1) the loss of endothelium vasodilation because less availability of NO, because of NO saturation of the muscles by strenious excercise(aka pump).
2) Overstimulation by N of the dopaminergic system/pathways activating certain parts in the brain, spinal cord and sympathic nervous system. Directly or indirectly involved with reward sensations during pleasurable activities....

Combined a loss of blood flow, erection control and mental reward stimulation.

Keep in mind that in complex cases such as 'why does nandrolone cause ED in some patients but not others', the solution is likely not going to be a linear causal relation wherein you took X, you experienced Y, thus X caused Y. Not all men experience ED, so if NO is a highly correlated variable (appears to be with given research), then one would have to further investigate to determine why some men experience ED and not others; is it because some genetics are less susceptible to low bioavailability of NO? Some genetics don't need as much NO for erectile function?

As far as decreased density of dopaminergic neurons, the correlation here would be much more unclear given the highly complex relationship of neurotransmitters within limbic system (including reward circuitry) play in reward and goal-seeking behavior.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Keep in mind that in complex cases such as 'why does nandrolone cause ED in some patients but not others', the solution is likely not going to be a linear causal relation wherein you took X, you experienced Y, thus X caused Y. Not all men experience ED, so if NO is a highly correlated variable (appears to be with given research), then one would have to further investigate to determine why some men experience ED and not others; is it because some genetics are less susceptible to low bioavailability of NO? Some genetics don't need as much NO for erectile function?

As far as decreased density of dopaminergic neurons, the correlation here would be much more unclear given the highly complex relationship of neurotransmitters within limbic system (including reward circuitry) play in reward and goal-seeking behavior.

I agree with you on the linear causality part as the actual physical variables are a multitude.
I think the second part for me is a bit more interresting as I see its complexity is rooted more in the conditioning of the mind and the following patterns which limit the bandwidth of reward sensations. porn or union. This amplified by a numbing down from Nandrolone could lead to ED.

 

[Gman86]

Both studies just used nandrolone correct? No other compounds? So would it be safe to assume that all subjects in these studies would have low E2?

I ask because on 200mg deca, 42mg test, and 500iu’s HCG, all per week, I felt like the veins in my arms were less vascular than they were on my previous protocol of 180mg of test per week. Erections have still been very good tho. No issues there. My E2 came back at 24. After getting my E2 results back, I upped test to 63mg and HCG to 630iu’s. Kept deca the same. It’s been exactly a week, and I think I’m slightly more vascular. Im trying to get my E2 up a bit.

My question is, does E2 play a role in vasodilation and nitric oxide at all? I know E2 is extremely important for the heart, and endothelial tissue and blood vessels in general. I assume E2 plays a big role in regards to erections. It just seems like the side effects that are seen in nandrolone studies correlate perfectly with low E2 symptoms. The heart issues, the blood vessel issues, brain issues. Do you guys think that some of the side effects seen in these nandrolone studies could have anything to do with low E2? Since nandrolone by itself results in extremely low levels of E2, I don’t see how this can’t be the case.

 

[DS3]

Keep in mind that in complex cases such as 'why does nandrolone cause ED in some patients but not others', the solution is likely not going to be a linear causal relation wherein you took X, you experienced Y, thus X caused Y.

I believe that some of the confusion therein lies with your adoption of the widely believed but reductionistic view of the brain wherein the fatty tissue between our ears inputs information encodes information and expresses outputs analogous to a computer.

Early research in neuroscience reduced the biochemical reactions of the brain and the highly interdependent functioning of the various neuroanatomical structures into such terms as being analogous to a computer because it was easier to understand its complex structure through those terms. However, as research has advanced within the field, drawing similarities between our brain and those of a computer have actually been viewed as insulting to the brain, as the inner workings of a computer are manmade and mapped out, yet the inner workings of the brain are far more complex, with much left to discover.

For example, early researchers in neuroscience put confidence in the belief that the adult brain was not malleable; you were born with a certain set of neurons and that number was fixed. However, in 1962, Joseph Altman discovered the concept of neurogenesis within the hippocampus, and the entire world of research was flipped on its head.

I say all of that to say that your statement of 'conditioning the mind' to respond to environmental stimuli reflects the influence that Pavlovian (classical) conditioning has played in your understanding of the brain. During Pavlov's time, behaviorists believed that people, and animals alike, and the brain that they possessed simply responded to the world around them through environmental stimuli through a feedback loop called 'conditioning'. As the science behind the brain became known, behaviorism was by and large disbanded.

So 'conditioning your brain' through environmental stimuli does not actually express the inner workings of the brain or what actually happens when habits are formed (whether those habits are positive like working out or negative like porn additions).

 

[DS3]

Both studies just used nandrolone correct? No other compounds? So would it be safe to assume that all subjects in these studies would have low E2?

I ask because on 200mg deca, 42mg test, and 500iu’s HCG, all per week, I felt like the veins in my arms were less vascular than they were on my previous protocol of 180mg of test per week. Erections have still been very good tho. No issues there. My E2 came back at 24. After getting my E2 results back, I upped test to 63mg and HCG to 630iu’s. Kept deca the same. It’s been exactly a week, and I think I’m slightly more vascular. Im trying to get my E2 up a bit.

My question is, does E2 play a role in vasodilation and nitric oxide at all? I know E2 is extremely important for the heart, and endothelial tissue and blood vessels in general. I assume E2 plays a big role in regards to erections. It just seems like the side effects that are seen in nandrolone studies correlate perfectly with low E2 symptoms. The heart issues, the blood vessel issues, brain issues. Do you guys think that some of the side effects seen in these nandrolone studies could have anything to do with low E2? Since nandrolone by itself results in extremely low levels of E2, I don’t see how this can’t be the case.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c996/15d52f25438b63c415951e8dbc8ba07a2663.pdf

According to this report, nitric oxide and acetylcholine are the key mediators of erectile function. Estrogen is not mentioned, though we know it plays a role.

 

[DS3]

I agree with you on the linear causality part as the actual physical variables are a multitude.
I think the second part for me is a bit more interresting as I see its complexity is rooted more in the conditioning of the mind and the following patterns which limit the bandwidth of reward sensations. porn or union. This amplified by a numbing down from Nandrolone could lead to ED.

Additionally, the study reports that the dosages used were intended to reflect that of classic AAS abuse. As such, they used 15 mg/kg of nandrolone in the trial, which is analogous to a 200-pound man using 1350 mg of nandrolone weekly. So determining (1) if this same effect in dopaminergic neurons would occur at therapeutic dosages and/or (2) if this research translates to what happens in the human brain is transferable from this study is difficult. Human trials would need to be conducted with neuroimaging. I would be super interested to see that.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

I believe that some of the confusion therein lies with your adoption of the widely believed but reductionistic view of the brain wherein the fatty tissue between our ears inputs information encodes information and expresses outputs analogous to a computer.

Early research in neuroscience reduced the biochemical reactions of the brain and the highly interdependent functioning of the various neuroanatomical structures into such terms as being analogous to a computer because it was easier to understand its complex structure through those terms. However, as research has advanced within the field, drawing similarities between our brain and those of a computer have actually been viewed as insulting to the brain, as the inner workings of a computer are manmade and mapped out, yet the inner workings of the brain are far more complex, with much left to discover.

For example, early researchers in neuroscience put confidence in the belief that the adult brain was not malleable; you were born with a certain set of neurons and that number was fixed. However, in 1962, Joseph Altman discovered the concept of neurogenesis within the hippocampus, and the entire world of research was flipped on its head.

I say all of that to say that your statement of 'conditioning the mind' to respond to environmental stimuli reflects the influence that Pavlovian (classical) conditioning has played in your understanding of the brain. During Pavlov's time, behaviorists believed that people, and animals alike, and the brain that they possessed simply responded to the world around them through environmental stimuli through a feedback loop called 'conditioning'. As the science behind the brain became known, behaviorism was by and large disbanded.

So 'conditioning your brain' through environmental stimuli does not actually express the inner workings of the brain or what actually happens when habits are formed (whether those habits are positive like working out or negative like porn additions).

I do not interchange brain and mind. As a devotee of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi (we are living next to a Holy mountain in India) Mind is so much more, brain is seen as an extension of the spinal cord and physical control centre and just an organ like any other in the body. My direct experience is reality appears within me when awareness is "awakened" as like it dissappears within me at nighttime when awareness goes to "sleep". I need to "translate" to convey what I want to say on this forum thats why my messages are short and sometimes a bit odd. Consequence of living with a silent mind 99% of the time.

 

[DS3]

I do not interchange brain and mind. As a devotee of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi (we are living next to a Holy mountain in India) Mind is so much more, brain is seen as an extension of the spinal cord and physical control centre and just an organ like any other in the body. My direct experience is reality appears within me when awareness is "awakened" as like it dissappears within me at nighttime when awareness goes to "sleep". I need to "translate" to convey what I want to say on this forum thats why my messages are short and sometimes a bit odd. Consequence of living with a silent mind 99% of the time.

Interesting. For purposes of scientific discussion, the ‘philosophical’ concept of mind should be minimized as it’s lack of scientific foundation doesn’t further evidence-based conversation. Bear in mind, I love the ‘philosophical’ concept of mind as a separate yet same entity as the more scientific brain (wherein the brain is simply an organ consisting of biochemical reactions and the philosophical mind is where true consciousness takes places). Even though this separation of mind and brain intuitively make sense and may even serve as a part of your spiritual beliefs, the philosophical mind is, in fact, not separate from the biochemical brain, nor is consciousness a true philosophical entity with no biological basis.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Interesting. For purposes of scientific discussion, the ‘philosophical’ concept of mind should be minimized as it’s lack of scientific foundation doesn’t further evidence-based conversation. Bear in mind, I love the ‘philosophical’ concept of mind as a separate yet same entity as the more scientific brain (wherein the brain is simply an organ consisting of biochemical reactions and the philosophical mind is where true consciousness takes places). Even though this separation of mind and brain intuitively make sense and may even serve as a part of your spiritual beliefs, the philosophical mind is, in fact, not separate from the biochemical brain, nor is consciousness a true philosophical entity with no biological basis.

I respect your thoughts on this and lets leave it like that because it is not within the scope of the site......although inseparable....

 

[benaoao]

I’m not sure if I’ve shared that study before

Increased libido on nandrolone decanoate, not significantly different from placebo

I’m betting that this is yet another group of patients who have never heard of Deca dick, more likely have heard of steroids being “virilizing”, and therefore experience INCREASED libido on doses as low as 65 mg/wk.

The brain is a powerful organ when it comes to side effects... me personally I’m 3 weeks in on 125 mg E5D and nothing else, appetite is way up, sleep is great, waking up hard and full, erections are 10/10, libido is normal not crazy like Supra physiological DHT would be.

 

[DS3]

I’m not sure if I’ve shared that study before

Increased libido on nandrolone decanoate, not significantly different from placebo

I’m betting that this is yet another group of patients who have never heard of Deca dick, more likely have heard of steroids being “virilizing”, and therefore experience INCREASED libido on doses as low as 65 mg/wk.

The brain is a powerful organ when it comes to side effects... me personally I’m 3 weeks in on 125 mg E5D and nothing else, appetite is way up, sleep is great, waking up hard and full, erections are 10/10, libido is normal not crazy like Supra physiological DHT would be.

Seen it. It’s a good study.

To be certain, the results on libido demonstrate that 2 out of 11 in the nandrolone treatment group reported an increase in libido, which was determined to be no different than the placebo group.

The study was also conducted over a 21-day period, which is not enough time to confidently determine long-term side effects. Libido increased for me over the first 8-week period and then dropped over the face of the earth along with any passion or drive I had for life. I went into the nandrolone experiment with no expectation other than improved joints.

Studies I have previously shared provide evidence that nandrolone decrease dopaminergic neuron density (potentiating depression) and changes in libido and sex drive have been noted as nandrolone side effects. Your short experience does not necessarily reflect the experience that other males will have, nor does mine.

There is, however, too much anecdotal evidence, coupled with small research studies, indicating that nandrolone-induced impotence and depression are real events; the prevalence not being elucidated at this point.

I am, however, very happy to hear you are feeling well on your protocol. Health, wellness, and peace of mind are invaluable. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Gman86]

I’m not sure if I’ve shared that study before

Increased libido on nandrolone decanoate, not significantly different from placebo

I’m betting that this is yet another group of patients who have never heard of Deca dick, more likely have heard of steroids being “virilizing”, and therefore experience INCREASED libido on doses as low as 65 mg/wk.

The brain is a powerful organ when it comes to side effects... me personally I’m 3 weeks in on 125 mg E5D and nothing else, appetite is way up, sleep is great, waking up hard and full, erections are 10/10, libido is normal not crazy like Supra physiological DHT would be.

That’s interesting. I’m using deca as my base, and libido is very healthy. I would say like a 7/10. But it feels very natural. Like it goes up to a 10/10 when I’m around the right girl. But the thing is, I’ve had better libido before on HRT, but just like u, erections are a 10/10. They’re almost too good. I get rock hard by just thinking about sex. Don’t need to touch it or watch porn or anything. And they stay for as long as I’m thinking about it. And during sex, refractory period is very short, and erections last as long as I need them to. I don’t think erections have been this good ever on HRT. I can’t imagine them getting any better.

For the record tho, I’m also using test and HCG. So I must have some DHT floating around

I’m just guessing here, but maybe on previous protocols with test as my base my E2 was much higher, which lead to me having a higher libido, but erections and refractory period weren’t as good. Now with deca as my base, E2 was 24 last time I checked it, which might be causing my libido to be good, but not as good as it has been in the past. But maybe the higher androgens with the lower E2 is having a really positive impact on erections. And deca produces much lower prolactin than test, which may be positively influencing my refractory period. Honestly not really sure. These are just guesses as to what’s going on

 

[Gman86]

Awesome progress @Gman86. Honestly if/when I start feeling suboptimal i have HCG on hand... thinking of 250eod ish. I’ve had explosive libido on HCG only for sure. And very good erections.

@DS3 well there’s a 12 week period following the 21 day ward. I’ll need to read it again to make sure that side effects were reported after 21 days, not 12 weeks. I had assumed the latter.

You guys might call me crazy but I’m extremely curious about Trestolone. 5ish mg/day. Probably later on this year. If nandrolone is associated with impotence, Trestolone sure isn’t.

So I actually am doing a little experiment with my HCG. My current bottle just finished, and instead of reconstituting my other vial, I’m taking a 3-4 week break to see if I notice any differences, good or bad. I’m also going to get my E2 tested at the end of the 3-4 weeks. Then gonna go back on HCG. So been off of HCG since 4/16, and haven’t noticed any differences so far.

 

[benaoao]

Awesome. Looking forward to the E2 test. I think HDL (so, blood lipids) would be useful as well

 

[Vince]

So I actually am doing a little experiment with my HCG. My current bottle just finished, and instead of reconstituting my other vial, I’m taking a 3-4 week break to see if I notice any differences, good or bad. I’m also going to get my E2 tested at the end of the 3-4 weeks. Then gonna go back on HCG. So been off of HCG since 4/16, and haven’t noticed any differences so far.

I think 3-4 weeks is to short of time span. To feel a real difference you should wait at least 12 weeks or longer.

 

[benaoao]

Someone on Reddit was theorizing that the response to Deca dick is using Finasteride... I guess it would make sense going by the following table:

Template:Relative affinities of nandrolone and related steroids at the androgen receptor - Wikipedia

however, I don’t think that’s a hair friendly tactic...

and clearly DHN is not that super weak androgen...

 

[JimGainz]

All I can say is that 100 mg Deca along with my TRT makes me feel better than I have in 30 years and I’m not exaggerating. I plan to do 10 weeks on 2-3 months off and repeat as long as I can. Lipids, liver and kidney values were not changed or actually improved on Deca.
As for Deca D-ck : well after about 6-7 weeks I notice it hits my libido a bit. I take low dose cialis daily and no issues once I get in the mood. Coming off, my libido returns to high normal. At my age and history of joint issues, given how great I feel, I will trade a bit of libido for the benefits. This is my third run using Deca while on TRT. I used it in college over 30 years ago at 250 mg of Test and Deca each in a cycle and had zero issues (except coming off - we didn’t PCT back then). Winstrol was far worse. I f-ing love Deca. It literally changed my life by clearing up decades of injuries.

 

[JimGainz]

All I can say is that 100 mg Deca along with my TRT makes me feel better than I have in 30 years and I’m not exaggerating. I plan to do 10 weeks on 2-3 months off and repeat as long as I can. Lipids, liver and kidney values were not changed or actually improved on Deca.
As for Deca D-ck : well after about 6-7 weeks I notice it hits my libido a bit. I take low dose cialis daily and no issues once I get in the mood. Coming off, my libido returns to high normal. At my age and history of joint issues, given how great I feel, I will trade a bit of libido for the benefits. This is my third run using Deca while on TRT. I used it in college over 30 years ago at 250 mg of Test and Deca each in a cycle and had zero issues (except coming off - we didn’t PCT back then). Winstrol was far worse. I f-ing love Deca. It literally changed my life by clearing up decades of injuries.

 

[Vince]

All I can say is that 100 mg Deca along with my TRT makes me feel better than I have in 30 years and I’m not exaggerating. I plan to do 10 weeks on 2-3 months off and repeat as long as I can. Lipids, liver and kidney values were not changed or actually improved on Deca.
As for Deca D-ck : well after about 6-7 weeks I notice it hits my libido a bit. I take low dose cialis daily and no issues once I get in the mood. Coming off, my libido returns to high normal. At my age and history of joint issues, given how great I feel, I will trade a bit of libido for the benefits. This is my third run using Deca while on TRT. I used it in college over 30 years ago at 250 mg of Test and Deca each in a cycle and had zero issues (except coming off - we didn’t PCT back then). Winstrol was far worse. I f-ing love Deca. It literally changed my life by clearing up decades of injuries.

What does the rest of your protocol look like?