Dialed in on Testosterone Propionate, How to Switch to Cypionate

[FunkOdyssey]

It might work in some healthy individuals, but it's more of a stretch for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism, who have a reduced natural set point for testosterone.

It's the estradiol setpoint that is most impactful here, and this usually doesn't differ for men with secondary hypogonadism. In my view, the only reason most men with secondary hypogonadism have it is because they are able to reach their estradiol setpoint with less testosterone, because they aromatize like crazy, because they're obese and/or metabolically unhealthy with high insulin levels (insulin promotes aromatase expression).

It is a peculiar thing that the male HPTA system seems to view testosterone as primarily a means to the end of achieving a desired level of estradiol.

By the way, my concerns about enclomiphene have gotten the better of me and I am phasing it out.

Can you elaborate on these? Did you encounter adverse effects, or are these mainly theoretical concerns?

 

[Cataceous]

It's the estradiol setpoint that is most impactful here, and this usually doesn't differ for men with secondary hypogonadism. In my view, the only reason most men with secondary hypogonadism have it is because they are able to reach their estradiol setpoint with less testosterone, because they aromatize like crazy, because they're obese and/or metabolically unhealthy with high insulin levels (insulin promotes aromatase expression).

It is a peculiar thing that the male HPTA system seems to view testosterone as primarily a means to the end of achieving a desired level of estradiol.
...

I agree that estradiol is the stronger regulator, but we typically observe that enclomiphene fails to stimulate the HPTA under conventional TRT. This is most likely due to the direct negative feedback of androgens on kisspeptin neurons in the arcuate nucleus. I've suggested that using cistanche extract might be a way around this. Maybe give it a try if enclomiphene alone doesn't do the job?

I also agree that overweight/obesity/metabolic disorder can cause hypogonadism. I'm not quite ready to say it applies to "most men" with secondary, though given the ever-increasing prevalence of these conditions it's possible we are there.

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Can you elaborate on [concerns about enclomiphene]? Did you encounter adverse effects, or are these mainly theoretical concerns?

With respect to specific issues, which admittedly could easily be independent of enclomiphene use, there are two: First, libido is not as good as I'd like. If I can remove enclomiphene without influencing other variables too much then I will see if it is a factor. Second, I've seen floater activity increase in the past couple of years. The ocular effects are significant enough that I have to see if stopping enclomiphene slows or stops the progression. Other concerns remain theoretical, primarily relating to the possible effects of enclomiphene on non-target receptors.

 

[Forty2]

It might work in some healthy individuals, but it's more of a stretch for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism, who have a reduced natural set point for testosterone. A crude estimate based on an 18 hour half-life is that propionate still leads to a trough that's 40% of the peak. I expect that's too high for much HPTA recovery.

By the way, my concerns about enclomiphene have gotten the better of me and I am phasing it out. Inspired by Natesto, I am using three daily doses of a micronized testosterone suspension (1.5 mg, 1.5 mg, 0.75 mg ATM). I'm continuing with the peptides: gonadorelin, etc, recognizing that there could be some endogenous/exogenous conflicts there. I had mentioned that adding gonadorelin did correlate with improvements in cognition, which has some support in the literature: "A striking observation was that GnRH promoted adult neurogenesis despite aging."[R]

Do you mean that you are using TNE in oil?
How many hours are you spacing the shots and have you had blood work done on this protocol?

 

[Cataceous]

Do you mean that you are using TNE in oil?
How many hours are you spacing the shots and have you had blood work done on this protocol?

Suspensions are water-based. In this case there are micronized testosterone particles suspended in the carrier; being hydrophobic they do not dissolve as they would in oil.

The injections are spaced six hours apart. No blood work yet, but I am seriously considering doing a sequence of tests to try to get a sense of the half-life and such. The manufacturer claims the half-life is two hours.

 

[Forty2]

Suspensions are water-based. In this case there are micronized testosterone particles suspended in the carrier; being hydrophobic they do not dissolve as they would in oil.

The injections are spaced six hours apart. No blood work yet, but I am seriously considering doing a sequence of tests to try to get a sense of the half-life and such. The manufacturer claims the half-life is two hours.

Please get blood work done. I'd be very interested to see the results of this protocol.
How many mg/ml is your test suspension?

 

[Cataceous]

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How many mg/ml is your test suspension?

It comes as 100 mg/mL, but I dilute it to 50 mg/mL for quarter-milligram dose resolution.