DHT, DHT derivative steroids, and libido

[bochinit]

Very interesting, DS3! Do you have predisposition to mpb?

Now I'm more attemp to experiment with those compounds, I can imagine the libido, aesthetic and mental improvements.

 

[DS3]

Very interesting, DS3! Do you have predisposition to mpb?

Now I'm more attemp to experiment with those compounds, I can imagine the libido, aesthetic and mental improvements.

Yes I am highly predisposed to MPB. I’ve had my hair buzzed short since I was 22. All the men in my family on both sides are bald or nearly bald, so I decided to bald gracefully and buzz it short from the beginning. I still have most of my hair follicles on top, they are just thin. As I take Proviron, they become much thinner. I don’t notice this same effect from Mast or Primo unless I take too high of a dosage and my estrogen is antagonized too much (from competitive binding).

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

I am also "pretty" bald, keeping it like that since my 30´s. Adding the DHT derivatives to my TRT gave until now nothing but positive effects for me.
Interresting to me is that although I got bald early, assuming through high DHT, I also had a "weak" prostate. Always needed some time before I could release it but since adding DHT to T, it has become much easier, can hold a larger volume and it improved my urination overall. I do cycle through Masteron, Proviron and Stanozolol in 10-12 week periods as they all have slightly different effects. Stanozolol is the only one which the mental effects stay noticeable through the period I use it. Never tried Primobolan or Anavar, yet as I can not get it from the pharmacy. @DS3 How much Primo did you add to your TRT?

 

[DS3]

I am also "pretty" bald, keeping it like that since my 30´s. Adding the DHT derivatives to my TRT gave until now nothing but positive effects for me.
Interresting to me is that although I got bald early, assuming through high DHT, I also had a "weak" prostate. Always needed some time before I could release it but since adding DHT to T, it has become much easier, can hold a larger volume and it improved my urination overall. I do cycle through Masteron, Proviron and Stanozolol in 10-12 week periods as they all have slightly different effects. Stanozolol is the only one which the mental effects stay noticeable through the period I use it. Never tried Primobolan or Anavar, yet as I can not get it from the pharmacy. @DS3 How much Primo did you add to your TRT?

200 mg per week (100 mg 2x weekly).

 

[Gman86]

My experience with DHT derivatives is very similar to yours. On testosterone monotherapy, I feel like crap although my assays look good (numbers rarely tell the whole story...i.e. they don't tell the neurocognitive effect). On Test + HCG I feel better, but estrogenic symptoms (for me mainly migraines and brain fog as my E2 creeps up) become overwhelming. When I take low doses of Drostanolone (100-150 mg per week) along with TRT (200 mg Test and 1000 units HCG weekly), my mental clarity, libido, and energy are much higher. I have the same effects with Primobolan.

In fact, I have recently had it dealing with estrogen symptoms on TRT so I recently added 200 mg Primo per week to act as an estrogen antagonist. As expected, my E2 symptoms or have subsided and my erection quality is significantly improved. It's a shame that men who don't respond ideally to T don't have any other options besides nandrolone (which I dislike) and oxandrolone (which is not a long-term solution).

It's funny because a sizeable portion of the males on this forum give solutions to E2 issues or low libido issues (including ED) such as implementing scrotal T cream, microdosing, lowering T dosage, raising T dosage, adding in HCG, taking out HCG, adding nandrolone, adding oxandrolone, etc., yet most of us keep getting on here because guess what... we still don't feel good or we still aren't satisfied, and some of us are just simply curious about the science behind it all. Interesting, to say the least.

And of course, you will always have guys jump in and say, "Well, that's not TRT. You're cycling." Well, TRT is supposed to increase quality of life, not take away from it. So as viable & sustainable adjunct therapies present themselves to men who don't respond optimally to Testosterone, it would be a far cry from the truth to label that cycling.

Amazing post. completely agree. Who cares if it’s not standard TRT. I never understood why some people cared about what it’s called, and what they’re used to, over feeling optimal. Doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s like building a house and only using some tools, but excluding other tools. Why in the world wouldn’t u use all the tools at ur disposal?

But anyways, so why isn’t oxandrolone a long term solution, because it’s an oral and can effect liver enzymes? Because it can effect lipids? Both? And do u think oxandrolone, since it’s a dht derivative, would have the same dht boosting/ E2 inhibition effects as primo or masteron?

 

[DS3]

Amazing post. completely agree. Who cares if it’s not standard TRT. I never understood why some people cared about what it’s called, and what they’re used to, over feeling optimal. Doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s like building a house and only using some tools, but excluding other tools. Why in the world wouldn’t u use all the tools at ur disposal?

But anyways, so why isn’t oxandrolone a long term solution, because it’s an oral and can effect liver enzymes? Because it can effect lipids? Both? And do u think oxandrolone, since it’s a dht derivative, would have the same dht boosting/ E2 inhibition effects as primo or masteron?

I don’t think oxandrolone is a long-term solution purely because of its fairly profound impact on lipids. It does raise ALT and AST, but Nelson has made other posts arguing that oxandrolone is not liver toxic, despite these increases.

From my personal experience, and this is not TRT so I’m not advocating for it, Anavar and Primo, for me, have successfully mitigated my need for an AI while taking 300 mg Test last year while cutting for a show. I was taking 300 Primo and 25 mg Anavar ED. I discontinued Anavar after 10 weeks because of gastrointestinal distress, which stopped after cessation.

So, from my past experiences, which have been many at this point, I believe Anavar will help mitigate some estrogenic effects of Testosterone due to competitive binding. However, the migraine, head fog symptoms I get from high E2 only truly go away when I use a low dose of Proviron.

From a DHT subjective response perspective, Proviron adds that true aggressive DHT feel with anti-e benefits, same as Masteron. Primo and Anavar don’t seem to that same added aggression and ‘manliness’ feel to them. Anavar and Primos clinical use in women and children (Primo) support this lacking androgenicity. And despite Proviron and Masterons relatively low Androgenic rating, anyone who has taken them would tell you they are far from being mild androgens.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

Increasing DHT too much has the opposite effect on libido as DHT blocks the estrogen receptor needed for libido to be present. That is why oxandrolone and stanozolol, two DHT derivatives, tend to lower libido even in the presence of TRT background.

What if you were on injections and cream and you thought the DHT was causing low e2 issues.

Would injecting more test to try to raise e2 work?

 

[WhatSayYou89]

A little background. I had a hardcore raging libido when I was younger, up to my early 20s. Quickly my erectile function deteriorated, followed by libido a few months later. I went for a blood test and my T was 300. I wanted TRT but my doc wouldn't prescribe it. So I turned to a friend at the gym who gave me testosterone. I cycled a few times, felt good while on, terrible when off. The one thing I noticed is that test really helped my libido at high doses with an AI, but I never once had erection or libido issues when using masteron, which is a DHT based steroid. It made me feel amazing.

Finally, I learned about telemedicine clinics, and wanted to do TRT the right way instead of damaging my health and flying blind. It's worked well for some things, but I never, ever felt that energy and sex drive or good erectile function like when I used something that boosted my DHT. It seems that no matter the dose, my body will not bring my DHT above 60. Now I know this is plenty for some guys, but I believe everyone has individual sensitivity, and that for me, this isn't enough to give me that boost I need.

I tried scrotal cream briefly, and I felt amazing for about a week, then estrogen symptoms skyrocketed and I had to stop. That was 25mg Scrotal per day with 120mg of test for the week.

What else can I do? Proviron isn't available as a prescription here, and I don't want to turn to buying masteron from some shady site to add to my TRT. I want to do this legally and avoid the headache. But I'm afraid that I'll never feel good again if I don't.

As someone who has been on both cream and injections. I recently just started trying cream with injections.

I felt similar to you with cream only, felt great to start then continued to get worse. Test by itself doesn’t give me that great feeling that comes with DHT.

IDK if the issues I was having from cream only came from to high DHT or e2 issues but the more I research it the more it seems like DHT.

Now, I’m trying to make this cream plus injections work but so far a similar experience where I felt great to begin with now shit.

I don’t have the money to get bloodwork every time I change something so Im trying to make it where I feel like I’m somewhat close then get bloodwork and tweek it from there. Heck the DHT test alone is more than the test/e2 test.

 

[Cataceous]

...
I don’t have the money to get bloodwork every time I change something so Im trying to make it where I feel like I’m somewhat close then get bloodwork and tweek it from there. Heck the DHT test alone is more than the test/e2 test.

LEF.org has its annual sale on now. DHT is $37.50. The male basic hormone panel is a great value at $56.25 (TT, FT, E2, DHEA, PSA).

 

[Gman86]

LEF.org has its annual sale on now. DHT is $37.50. The male basic hormone panel is a great value at $56.25 (TT, FT, E2, DHEA, PSA).

Oh thanks! Was waiting for them to have this sale. Do u know how long they run the sale for? Is it only once per year?

 

[WhatSayYou89]

LEF.org has its annual sale on now. DHT is $37.50. The male basic hormone panel is a great value at $56.25 (TT, FT, E2, DHEA, PSA).

Oh nice, never knew about that site.

 

[Cataceous]

Oh thanks! Was waiting for them to have this sale. Do u know how long they run the sale for? Is it only once per year?

The sale is once a year. Normally it ends around May, but this year it says it ends on 7/13, so shifted later.

Though the requisitions are good for six months, they will renew them on request for another six months, so you can get a year's worth of testing during the sale.

 

[eyeheartny]

Can @DS3 and @Rock H. Johnson comment on how DHT derivatives may have impacted your sleep? One of my biggest issues on TRT has to do with getting good quality sleep, and I suspect that my sleep issues are mediated in part by E2 levels. I'd be interested in hearing both of your subjective experiences with how Proviron/Masteron/Primo/etc have changed your sleep quality for better or worse.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Can @DS3 and @Rock H. Johnson comment on how DHT derivatives may have impacted your sleep? One of my biggest issues on TRT has to do with getting good quality sleep, and I suspect that my sleep issues are mediated in part by E2 levels. I'd be interested in hearing both of your subjective experiences with how Proviron/Masteron/Primo/etc have changed your sleep quality for better or worse.

Sure, I am more like a cat as I sleep instantly, do not feel the head hitting the pillow and awakening is also instant.
The only thing I know from myself and taking these C17AA derivatives is as their half-life is 9 hours I take them immediately upon awakening @7 on an empty stomach. So there is that diurnal peak an hour later @8 and then I can feel it until around 14-15:00. If I would need to do a split dosage, I would not take them after 16:00, so I have enough time to ride it out for sleep but this never happens. Dosing is so low I do not experience any sleep disturbances nor difficulties falling asleep. If I would be on Masteron it is much more subtle for me, 10mg Drostanolone Enanthate is a slow 7day ester and it is more of a background E2/SHBG/FT control which is continually present in the bloodserum. It does not have that direct peak feeling for me like the C17AA tablets. The effects are different so you have some room to play with and get it right for you if you want to go this route.

 

[DS3]

Can @DS3 and @Rock H. Johnson comment on how DHT derivatives may have impacted your sleep? One of my biggest issues on TRT has to do with getting good quality sleep, and I suspect that my sleep issues are mediated in part by E2 levels. I'd be interested in hearing both of your subjective experiences with how Proviron/Masteron/Primo/etc have changed your sleep quality for better or worse.

For me DHT derivatives decrease my need for so much sleep and help me wake up with higher energy in the morning. As far as C-17 aa orals, I only dose those 1x per day when I take them and that is with meal 1. So all in all I do not have decreased quality of sleep with DHT derivatives like it have with Deca, but my need for more sleep reduces and I wake up more energetic.