Deca (nandrolone) for joint pain

[JimGainz]

I think the last time u talked about ur protocol u mentioned that u were trying as low as 40mg of deca per week, correct? How’d that end up going? U still on that dose?

Yes. I have been on 40 mg per week for the last month - And unfortunately much of the systemic pain I had has returned but not to the same degree. I’m going to stick with this for another month and then go back to my normal dose.

 

[Gman86]

Yes. I have been on 40 mg per week for the last month - And unfortunately much of the systemic pain I had has returned but not to the same degree. I’m going to stick with this for another month and then go back to my normal dose.

Jc, why are u gonna stick to this dose for another month if u already know ur gonna go back to 120mg/ week?

And ur not interested in trying say 60 or 80mg/ week before jumping back up to 120mg?

 

[madman]

I agree with everything you said except that I can’t tell if you are saying to avoid nandrolone and just train smarter. I mentioned that it does not heal a joint - but the pain reduction can be life changing for some people. Also, 100mg /week does provide a nice boost in mass and strength - very noticeable if one trains correctly.

Never said to avoid using ND.

No point in jumping on it if you keep on beating up your joints and tendons especially if you already have underlying tendon/joint issues.

Need to train smarter.

Far from common 100 mg/week of ND is going to throw on much muscle if we are talking about pure dry gains!

Would not even waste my time with such a dose if the goal was to throw on some size.

200 mg/week is where its true anabolic potential starts to shine.

 

[Pacman]

I mentioned that it does not heal a joint - but the pain reduction can be life changing for some people.

It is life changing, sometimes for the worse if it's used in the wrong way.

For example, if the joint pain is the result of and/or exacerbated by poor form (very common) and/or too heavy a weight for you to handle safely (also very common especially amongst men), if done repetitively, then the nandrolone will only mask that pain and enable you to continue training despite harming your own body. You'll be okay, for now.... Until your body breaks down completely and then you are truly screwed.

You mess up the joint capsule in some way = you are done.

Joints are the foundation of movement.

Your body gives you pain signals for a reason. It's to warn you. However, sometimes the body goes a little overboard with those pain signals, not allowing to you train normally.

This is especially true with systemic and neuropathic pain, since the source of that pain is (usually and typically) not localized damage. In physical therapy they recognize this difference and incorporate desensitization in many of their treatments.

Not every pain signal is indicative of damage, so in order to be able to surpass the "non-essential" pain signals (as I like to call it) while not violating the essential ones that are there to warn you, you need to train smarter.

If you check off all the "train smart" markers (i.e. do not violate your joints, control everything, no jerky movements, have good form, let yourself recover, etc etc) then nandrolone is a literal godsend. At least physically it is.

Here are 3 rules to prevent joint violation (adapted from Tom Purvis' course, so crediting him here):

1) You can only work with what you have: If you have limited shoulder flexion that locks out at 150 degrees, that's all you have. You are not going to do barbell overhead presses at 180 degrees, even if your other shoulder has the full 180.

2) You can only work with what you own: Even if you have that ROM, if you can't control it then you don't own it.

3) You can only work with what you tolerate: Even if you have it and can own it, if it's unreasonably painful, either during or after, you cannot tolerate it. This is the grey area though. Nandrolone makes it even greyer, so be careful. But as long as you take care of #1 and #2, assessing #3 should be easier to do.

If you mess up your joints in some way (tendon and/or especially cartilage damage) you will permanently reduce #1 above (what you have) and by extension what you own and can tolerate.

No point in jumping on it if you keep on beating up your joints and tendons especially if you already have underlying tendon/joint issues.

Need to train smarter.

I am fairly certain that this is what @madman means by this, or something along those lines.

 

[JimGainz]

Jc, why are u gonna stick to this dose for another month if u already know ur gonna go back to 120mg/ week?

And ur not interested in trying say 60 or 80mg/ week before jumping back up to 120mg?

I am definitely reconsidering this. The reason I wanted to stay as low as possible was simply to give my body a break and to prove I was not becoming dependent on the drug. It seems that each time I come down /off I am quickly reminded about why I started this protocol. My own doctor who prescribed it said he hasn’t come off in 4 years - he takes about 120-140mg /wk with 70mg Testosterone- I was 94 Test and 120 Deca. I think about LVH and calcium deposits long term - although there is a wide population of HIV and others with muscle wasting disease who have been on it decades before the FDA banned nandrolone in favor of the more expensive and more toxic Oxandralone (Anava). I was doing amazing on the protocol - so today I am due for my shot and I’m going back. I may front load it - 200/150/150/120 and then run the 120/mg per week for another 4 months, perhaps titration down and repeat. Seems like I can’t live without the stuff and there is no sense being miserable, or waking up in the middle of the night (like I did last night) in pain from 30 year old injuries.

 

[JimGainz]

It is life changing, sometimes for the worse if it's used in the wrong way.

For example, if the joint pain is the result of and/or exacerbated by poor form (very common) and/or too heavy a weight for you to handle safely (also very common especially amongst men), if done repetitively, then the nandrolone will only mask that pain and enable you to continue training despite harming your own body. You'll be okay, for now.... Until your body breaks down completely and then you are truly screwed.

You mess up the joint capsule in some way = you are done.

Joints are the foundation of movement.

Your body gives you pain signals for a reason. It's to warn you. However, sometimes the body goes a little overboard with those pain signals, not allowing to you train normally.

This is especially true with systemic and neuropathic pain, since the source of that pain is (usually and typically) not localized damage. In physical therapy they recognize this difference and incorporate desensitization in many of their treatments.

Not every pain signal is indicative of damage, so in order to be able to surpass the "non-essential" pain signals (as I like to call it) while not violating the essential ones that are there to warn you, you need to train smarter.

If you check off all the "train smart" markers (i.e. do not violate your joints, control everything, no jerky movements, have good form, let yourself recover, etc etc) then nandrolone is a literal godsend. At least physically it is.

Here are 3 rules to prevent joint violation (adapted from Tom Purvis' course, so crediting him here):

1) You can only work with what you have: If you have limited shoulder flexion that locks out at 150 degrees, that's all you have. You are not going to do barbell overhead presses at 180 degrees, even if your other shoulder has the full 180.

2) You can only work with what you own: Even if you have that ROM, if you can't control it then you don't own it.

3) You can only work with what you tolerate: Even if you have it and can own it, if it's unreasonably painful, either during or after, you cannot tolerate it. This is the grey area though. Nandrolone makes it even greyer, so be careful. But as long as you take care of #1 and #2, assessing #3 should be easier to do.

If you mess up your joints in some way (tendon and/or especially cartilage damage) you will permanently reduce #1 above (what you have) and by extension what you own and can tolerate.


I am fairly certain that this is what @madman means by this, or something along those lines.

Good points. my routine is kettlebells and a totalgym with very limited barbell work. Even when I was doing barbell bench and Zercher squats I kept the load to 65-80% of max. I have full ROM in all joints (thank God) and my form is spot on from being a former competitive lifter. It’s actually throwing the shot put, full contact karate and bike racing (with some crashes) that have caused multiple shoulder dislocations, cracked ribs, arthritis, etc. it seems these injuries manifest in strange ways - yesterday I went for a leisurely bike ride with my wife and now my shoulder is inflamed - wtf? The kettlebell work and increasing strength have been great for rehab. Too many people don’t strength train because they have pain and limited ROM - I was one of those for a while - but it actually got worse by not doing anything. KBs and the Totalgym are great for rehab as well as for a overall fitness program.

 

[Pacman]

it seems these injuries manifest in strange ways - yesterday I went for a leisurely bike ride with my wife and now my shoulder is inflamed - wtf?

Pain is definitely weird, but this actually does make sense. You are stabilizing the bike with your shoulders, and if you happen to be in a semi crouched position that could make it worse.

With neuropathic pain though, pain is less predictable unfortunately. That's one thing that makes it so frustrating.

 

[Gman86]

I am definitely reconsidering this. The reason I wanted to stay as low as possible was simply to give my body a break and to prove I was not becoming dependent on the drug. It seems that each time I come down /off I am quickly reminded about why I started this protocol. My own doctor who prescribed it said he hasn’t come off in 4 years - he takes about 120-140mg /wk with 70mg Testosterone- I was 94 Test and 120 Deca. I think about LVH and calcium deposits long term - although there is a wide population of HIV and others with muscle wasting disease who have been on it decades before the FDA banned nandrolone in favor of the more expensive and more toxic Oxandralone (Anava). I was doing amazing on the protocol - so today I am due for my shot and I’m going back. I may front load it - 200/150/150/120 and then run the 120/mg per week for another 4 months, perhaps titration down and repeat. Seems like I can’t live without the stuff and there is no sense being miserable, or waking up in the middle of the night (like I did last night) in pain from 30 year old injuries.

Ya I’ve been on nandrolone for years not as well at this point. That’s interesting that both u and ur doctor are using nandrolone as ur base basically. The NP that I do my consults with now uses a nandrolone based protocol as well, literally because I wanted to try it a few years ago and it got him intrigued, and he’s been on the nandrolone base since and apparently really enjoying it. His protocol is 200mg of nandrolone and 70mg of test.

So just wanted to clarify. Ur gonna frontload and eventually settle on using 120mg of deca per week? And u said u might titrate down lower again to see how u feel?

Also, has this LVH and calcium deposits thing ever been proven in humans, or just rat studies? Do we ever see these things with guys on nandrolone in real life? And if we do, do u think we have to worry about them using only around 100mg/ week? The highest I ever go with it, when it’s an add on to my test base, is 125mg/ week.

 

[Gman86]

@JimGainz here’s some vids where guys talk about taking nandrolone for years and years. Dr. Rutterbusch has been using it nonstop for around 20 years I believe. Just posting all these as to basically say, do we really need to be all that concerned with using around 100mg of nandrolone per week long term? Idk if I’m convinced that we do

(@10:50 Ron talks about using deca as part of his protocol year round, and has for years)

(Ron talks about his bloodwork on 350 test and 350 deca)

(Guy talks about using a ton of AAS, including nandrolone, year round, and apparently is still pretty healthy, “according to him”. 20 mins in he goes over his full protocol. Here’s the totals of everything he takes weekly

TOTALS PER WEEK:

-400mg test
-350mg nandrolone
-150mg Equipoise
-100mg Proviron
-80mg Anavar
-100mg Turinabol

(DR Rutterbusch talks about his deca use)

(another vid where Dr Rutterbusch talks about his deca use)

 

[Stoak]

I have arthritis in my neck to the point where I need chiropractic care weekly and torn TFCC cartilage in both wrists. I have used Deca as an adjunct to TRT up to 200mg per week and never noticed joint relief. I personally think it is a scam to sell TRT+. It is quite anabolic though I will say that.

 

[Pacman]

I have arthritis in my neck to the point where I need chiropractic care weekly and torn TFCC cartilage in both wrists. I have used Deca as an adjunct to TRT up to 200mg per week and never noticed joint relief. I personally think it is a scam to sell TRT+. It is quite anabolic though I will say that.

Interesting that you say this because there was this doctor on YouTube who was talking about nandrolone and the fact that it relieves joint pain, but he specified that in the neck and spine it doesn't seem to help at all. He mentioned the neck and spine specifically, but didn't give much detail on that point.

I have to find that video. I don't remember who it was exactly. But when I find it I will post it with the timestamp.

 

[Stoak]

Interesting that you say this because there was this doctor on YouTube who was talking about nandrolone and the fact that it relieves joint pain, but he specified that in the neck and spine it doesn't seem to help at all. He mentioned the neck and spine specifically, but didn't give much detail on that point.

I have to find that video. I don't remember who it was exactly. But when I find it I will post it with the timestamp.

I'd like to see that thanks.

 

[JimGainz]

I'd like to see that thanks.

it was Dr Carlson. If you search his last name and Nandrolone you’ll see a few videos he made touting the benefits. There is one where he goes into how he helped with back pain. I have used their clinic. They typically keep a person on about 120 mg / week with maybe one month off per year. Dr Carlson has died so the practice is managed by different people. i have done research and found a post online about his original protocol (and he references some of the doses in his videos) where it was 200 mgs for a month titrations down to 100 mg and after 3 months come off for a bit.

 

[JimGainz]

I have arthritis in my neck to the point where I need chiropractic care weekly and torn TFCC cartilage in both wrists. I have used Deca as an adjunct to TRT up to 200mg per week and never noticed joint relief. I personally think it is a scam to sell TRT+. It is quite anabolic though I will say that.

Severe arthritis is hard to manage but the nandrolone is supposed to help build some muscle that enables better overall mobility and function. Dr Carlson mentioned this in one of his videos.

 

[JimGainz]

@JimGainz here’s some vids where guys talk about taking nandrolone for years and years. Dr. Rutterbusch has been using it nonstop for around 20 years I believe. Just posting all these as to basically say, do we really need to be all that concerned with using around 100mg of nandrolone per week long term? Idk if I’m convinced that we do

(@10:50 Ron talks about using deca as part of his protocol year round, and has for years)

(Ron talks about his bloodwork on 350 test and 350 deca)

(Guy talks about using a ton of AAS, including nandrolone, year round, and apparently is still pretty healthy, “according to him”. 20 mins in he goes over his full protocol. Here’s the totals of everything he takes weekly

TOTALS PER WEEK:

-400mg test
-350mg nandrolone
-150mg Equipoise
-100mg Proviron
-80mg Anavar
-100mg Turinabol

(DR Rutterbusch talks about his deca use)

(another vid where Dr Rutterbusch talks about his deca use)

This is great! Thanks for posting. Dr Rand McClain made a similar video answering the question of “can you run deca and test independently“. He said yes, you can run it for life as long as you watch for and manage side effects - specifically Hematocrit and BP.

 

[JimGainz]

Ya I’ve been on nandrolone for years not as well at this point. That’s interesting that both u and ur doctor are using nandrolone as ur base basically. The NP that I do my consults with now uses a nandrolone based protocol as well, literally because I wanted to try it a few years ago and it got him intrigued, and he’s been on the nandrolone base since and apparently really enjoying it. His protocol is 200mg of nandrolone and 70mg of test.

So just wanted to clarify. Ur gonna frontload and eventually settle on using 120mg of deca per week? And u said u might titrate down lower again to see how u feel?

Also, has this LVH and calcium deposits thing ever been proven in humans, or just rat studies? Do we ever see these things with guys on nandrolone in real life? And if we do, do u think we have to worry about them using only around 100mg/ week? The highest I ever go with it, when it’s an add on to my test base, is 125mg/ week.

My current plan is to try to stay on 40 mg of Nandrolone until I get blood work done second week in November. Then I will start the protocol that I mentioned above. The reason why I didn’t want to start adding more now is because I am also going to start a short cycle of TB 500 and did not want to change too many variables at once in case I got side effects. Also, I noticed that instead of breaking apart the 40 mg dose into two shots, just taking it all at once seem to help with pain better.

Regarding LVH, I am not worried about that. I don’t strain myself like a professional power lifter. In fact, the population of athletes that is most susceptible to this, based on my research and consultations with cardiologists, is actually swimmers and wrestlers. Kind of makes sense. Also, the doses that I am doing, and plan to do, are in the physiological range.
Last year, I had a Cleveland heart lab diagnostic test performed which measures inflammation markers across all the different vessels. I scored pretty much near or at the optimal value across-the-board. My cardiologist said he never saw someone my age with this good of a profile and he said keep doing whatever you’re doing. I need to repeat this test – it’s kind of expensive – about four to $500 out of pocket but well worth it.

 

[Gman86]

My current plan is to try to stay on 40 mg of Nandrolone until I get blood work done second week in November. Then I will start the protocol that I mentioned above. The reason why I didn’t want to start adding more now is because I am also going to start a short cycle of TB 500 and did not want to change too many variables at once in case I got side effects. Also, I noticed that instead of breaking apart the 40 mg dose into two shots, just taking it all at once seem to help with pain better.

Regarding LVH, I am not worried about that. I don’t strain myself like a professional power lifter. In fact, the population of athletes that is most susceptible to this, based on my research and consultations with cardiologists, is actually swimmers and wrestlers. Kind of makes sense. Also, the doses that I am doing, and plan to do, are in the physiological range.
Last year, I had a Cleveland heart lab diagnostic test performed which measures inflammation markers across all the different vessels. I scored pretty much near or at the optimal value across-the-board. My cardiologist said he never saw someone my age with this good of a profile and he said keep doing whatever you’re doing. I need to repeat this test – it’s kind of expensive – about four to $500 out of pocket but well worth it.

That’s awesome about the results of the tests they performed on ur heart, glad to hear it! So how long have u been using nandrolone all together, and have u used it in the past before HRT? Like basically jw how many times throughout ur life have u used nandrolone?

I’m also gonna take the lowest effective dose approach with nandrolone I think. Dropping my dose down to 75mg/ week. Not because I’m worried about heart issues or anything, more so I’m jw if I could feel even better mood wise than I do. Nandrolone is so hit or miss with how it makes guys feel mentally and emotionally. I would say the majority of guys that use it either feel no difference mentally/ emotionally, or feel considerably worse. And then there’s the minority that actually gets a cognitive/ mood boost from it. I’m always trying to feel my best, so I’m jc if there’s room for improvement in that area. I’m also using test and low dose primo, and both, especially together, are basically unanimously gonna make most guys feel great. So if feeling my best mentally is my goal, the nandrolone I’m using seems like the obv culprit, if there’s anything preventing me from feeling my best. Ordered some NPP, so I can experiment with how it makes me feel easier. Skipped my last deca injection, and will start NPP when it comes in at 75mg/ week. And then once the deca ester is mostly out of my system, I’ll probably try stopping the NPP all together and I should know within a few days to a week if I feel better, or notice no improvements from taking it out. Have a buddy on here that was using NPP, but was feeling more emotional than usual, and less alpha, and just basically way too in his feelings about stuff that normally wouldn’t bother him, and he said he dropped the NPP and within a day or two started to feel a lot better. So it doesn’t take long to notice differences when adding or taking it away. I’ve also heard guys report anecdotally that they feel better mentally on NPP va deca, so I’m curious if simply switching esters improves things at all. But if it does, I guess I won’t know if it’s due to the ester itself, because I’m also dropping my total nandrolone dose down a bit. But anyways, that’s what I’m currently planning on doing with nandrolone, even tho nobody asked lol

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I doubt that TRT itself caused the joint pain, even with crashed E levels (unless you kept your E levels low for an extended period of time).

Even people who go on cycles and report joint pain, it's a lot more related to HOW they are training rather than what they are taking (although what they are taking can enable to train more intensely than otherwise, but you get my point, I am saying it doesn't typically directly cause joint pain).

In my observation of joint pain in myself and others (assuming it is not caused by some inherent condition), is typically due to (mostly):

1) Intensity way too high
2) Poor form while lifting (could be caused by #1)
3) Under recovery

The above 3 points are a whole separate huge discussion by themselves, but if I could summarize it in a few distinct oversimplified (but practical + applicable) points, here goes:

1) Go full ROM as much as you can tolerate (i.e. if you lose form or control and/or experience acute joint pain during the exercise past a certain ROM, don't go past that ROM. No need to squat past 90 if you can't handle it, no matter what the gym bros say). Not only is this easier on the joints themselves (because going full ROM under control basically guarantees you that it isn't too heavy of a weight), but there is major benefit to muscle development from weighted stretches (here is an amazing video on that topic).

Tolerance is the name of the game here. We are all built different so do not assume that full ROM is always the best option. It's just the best default option as far as joint health and safety goes (to the point you can tolerate it).

2) Control those eccentrics. Whatever speed you concentrically load the weight, as a general rule of thumb if your main priority is joint health and safety, the eccentric portion should be at least 50% slower. So if lat pulldowns are 1-1.5 seconds down (concentric) aim for 2-3 seconds up (eccentric).

As far as injury prevention goes, slow controlled eccentrics will greatly reduce injury occurrence.

Slow eccentrics induce a nice amount of muscle damage as well which contribute to hypertrophy. Although the exact degree it does is a topic of discussion, but for me personally I find that when I focus on muscle damage over a meso cycle it greatly increases muscle size over meso cycles in which I do not focus on that.

Note: "eccentrics" = the movement you resist that would happen if you allowed gravity to work by itself. (On a squat that is the way down, on a lat pulldown that's the way up...)

3) Recovery. This one's a little harder to define, and it really depends on how you feel and what your program is, but Dr. Mike from RP has several good videos on this.


This could definitely happen, moreso on higher doses though.


It's effective for joint pain. But it made me feel very depressed. I actually wrote about my experience on it here.

Regarding ROM, I used to be in this camp and for some movements I still am, but for high-risk movements I don’t think the risk/reward for extreme ROM is worth it. Specifically, dips, pec deck, pullover machines, and anything that loads the spine in an extreme position don’t seem to be a good idea to push beyond a clearly comfortable range of motion.

Also, many people effectively shorten the ROM by bouncing the weight or not holding the contraction, especially on bench presses and pulls. Almost no one works the bench press through the lower third of the ROM.

For squats, I find that a full ROM is much safer for the back when doing front squats rather than back squats, due to the more vertical/neutral back position that is required.

 

[Stoak]

Regarding ROM, I used to be in this camp and for some movements I still am, but for high-risk movements I don’t think the risk/reward for extreme ROM is worth it. Specifically, dips, pec deck, pullover machines, and anything that loads the spine in an extreme position don’t seem to be a good idea to push beyond a clearly comfortable range of motion.

Also, many people effectively shorten the ROM by bouncing the weight or not holding the contraction, especially on bench presses and pulls. Almost no one works the bench press through the lower third of the ROM.

For squats, I find that a full ROM is much safer for the back when doing front squats rather than back squats, due to the more vertical/neutral back position that is required.

Don't forget the fact that most of us on TRT are old 35+

 

[JimGainz]

Yes. I have been on 40 mg per week for the last month - And unfortunately much of the systemic pain I had has returned but not to the same degree. I’m going to stick with this for another month and then go back to my normal dose.

So today I just pinned 120 mg of nandrolone. I am back on. The knee pain was getting just too much. I just got back from cutting my lawn with a walk behind mower - probably about a third of an acre and my knees were just screaming at me. The pain with my osteoarthritis would come in waves. Sometimes I didn’t really feel like that much but other times I would sit there in the middle of the night thinking when is this going to end. It was just too much. When I was on the nandrolone , I felt fantastic. It definitely changed my life from being in constant mild to moderate pain to functioning pain-free. And since I was legally prescribed this long-term by my doctor, who, by the way, has been on it for four years straight himself, I don’t see any issues. I still may cycle down every couple of months just to kind of give my body a break and try to keep hematocrit and check but other than that I am happy to be back.