Daily Intramuscular injections.

[Fortunate]

@ivkonst2017, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say you do better on IM vs. SC? Do you feel you don't get the benefits of TRT on SC? Or, is it that when you use SC, you feel things that you don't feel when you do IM (for example, do you feel brain fog, fatigue, headaches or other side effects with SC that you don't feel with IM)?

Also, if what you say is in fact true, it will be borne out in the data of a well done research study. I think you were arguing "guys just feel better" on IM. There are lots of ways to measure purely subjective response to a given treatment. There are lots of validated outcome measures that can be used to study this sort of thing in a scientific way that should reflect your strong conviction that "IM is better". Even if it were better for a small subset of guys, it would be reflected as such in a large enough study.

Good discussion. It's these that push us to help each other out.

 

[ivkonst2017]

@ivkonst2017, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say you do better on IM vs. SC? Do you feel you don't get the benefits of TRT on SC? Or, is it that when you use SC, you feel things that you don't feel when you do IM (for example, do you feel brain fog, fatigue, headaches or other side effects with SC that you don't feel with IM)?

Also, if what you say is in fact true, it will be borne out in the data of a well done research study. I think you were arguing "guys just feel better" on IM. There are lots of ways to measure purely subjective response to a given treatment. There are lots of validated outcome measures that can be used to study this sort of thing in a scientific way that should reflect your strong conviction that "IM is better". Even if it were better for a small subset of guys, it would be reflected as such in a large enough study.

Good discussion. It's these that push us to help each other out.

Ive explained, but let me do it again in essentials.

When I started TRT in sub q it was working well INITIALLY, but at some point my total levels fell on the same dose on the same brand of testosterone around 40 percent and I tested 2-3 times in 1-2 weeks interval. Also later I tried injecting 1 different ester on dosages, on which several months later on IM I got much much higher test levels, in fact I got them on smaller dosages. Im absolutely sure the reason my levels fell was the SUB q administration, I can bet my life on that. Ive considered and isolated all possible variables. I even saved the current vial of testosterone and later used it IM, the levels in blood were much higher! Since I do IM Ive never injected more than 140mg per week. My test level were never lower than 1100-1200ng/dl on trough and this is when switching protocols, when Im stable usually Im 1200-1300. When I was doing sub q, my test levels have fallen I was above 10 weeks on 160mg per week and my test levels were in the 700s. Needless to say, when I was doing sub q in the 700s I was feelibg like crap as expected, after all I started TRT with levels of almost 600 and I try to be always above 1200 on therapy. I discuss total t levels because my SHBG stays relatively stable, between 20 and 30.

I believe for the reason(A THEORY IM NOT SURE OF) the reason levels in sub q fell were because I was injecting daily, and my stomach had gotten full of painful nodules. I believe these nodules mess somehow with the absorbtion, maybe the oil gets stuck for tool long in them or whatever Im not sure. Whatever happens the result is inconsistent results. Thats my experience, but lets continue.

A friend of mine when he started TRT on sub q doing sub q 210mg per week was getting initially around 1200ng/dl total t and was feeling fine. Again he was doing it daily and his stomach got ful of nodules. He was doing daily as well. At some point he started feeling like TRT is no longer working and tested, total t wad 800 and something. We know this value is too low for him to feel good, but ok this can be normal fluctuation, right? Ive alrrady started IM and was persuading him to go IM, in that period he tested again 2-3 times and total t was again in the 800-900s. At the end he said ok, lets go IM, the same dose(even a little lower, 200mg) split into two injections. He started feeling much better only after 2 weeks, on 8 weeks his total t value on trough was above 1500! He tested 2 months later, similar value. He feels awesome. By the way when he was doing sub q and was having 900ng/dl total test he had issues with hematocrit and hemoglobin, on IM and 1500ng/dl blood counts lowered well within the ranges!

Me and him will never do again testosterone sub q, for us it doesnt work well - point, blank, period.

A few other friends of mine got very low levels on sub q and as soon as they transfered to IM on the same dose their levels icreased significantly. I have read reports of guys who claim on the same levels on IM they feel better.

Ive met many people on the forums that share experiences of lower levels on sub q in relation to IM so I will be very skeptical to every study demonstrating sub q works as well as IM.

 

[Fortunate]

Ive explained, but let me do it again in essentials.

When I started TRT in sub q it was working well INITIALLY, but at some point my total levels fell on the same dose on the same brand of testosterone around 40 percent and I tested 2-3 times in 1-2 weeks interval. Also later I tried injecting 1 different ester on dosages, on which several months later on IM I got much much higher test levels, in fact I got them on smaller dosages. Im absolutely sure the reason my levels fell was the SUB q administration, I can bet my life on that. Ive considered and isolated all possible variables. I even saved the current vial of testosterone and later used it IM, the levels in blood were much higher! Since I do IM Ive never injected more than 140mg per week. My test level were never lower than 1100-1200ng/dl on trough and this is when switching protocols, when Im stable usually Im 1200-1300. When I was doing sub q, my test levels have fallen I was above 10 weeks on 160mg per week and my test levels were in the 700s. Needless to say, when I was doing sub q in the 700s I was feelibg like crap as expected, after all I started TRT with levels of almost 600 and I try to be always above 1200 on therapy. I discuss total t levels because my SHBG stays relatively stable, between 20 and 30.

I believe for the reason(A THEORY IM NOT SURE OF) the reason levels in sub q fell were because I was injecting daily, and my stomach had gotten full of painful nodules. I believe these nodules mess somehow with the absorbtion, maybe the oil gets stuck for tool long in them or whatever Im not sure. Whatever happens the result is inconsistent results. Thats my experience, but lets continue.

A friend of mine when he started TRT on sub q doing sub q 210mg per week was getting initially around 1200ng/dl total t and was feeling fine. Again he was doing it daily and his stomach got ful of nodules. He was doing daily as well. At some point he started feeling like TRT is no longer working and tested, total t wad 800 and something. We know this value is too low for him to feel good, but ok this can be normal fluctuation, right? Ive alrrady started IM and was persuading him to go IM, in that period he tested again 2-3 times and total t was again in the 800-900s. At the end he said ok, lets go IM, the same dose(even a little lower, 200mg) split into two injections. He started feeling much better only after 2 weeks, on 8 weeks his total t value on trough was above 1500! He tested 2 months later, similar value. He feels awesome. By the way when he was doing sub q and was having 900ng/dl total test he had issues with hematocrit and hemoglobin, on IM and 1500ng/dl blood counts lowered well within the ranges!

Me and him will never do again testosterone sub q, for us it doesnt work well - point, blank, period.

A few other friends of mine got very low levels on sub q and as soon as they transfered to IM on the same dose their levels icreased significantly. I have read reports of guys who claim on the same levels on IM they feel better.

Ive met many people on the forums that share experiences of lower levels on sub q in relation to IM so I will be very skeptical to every study demonstrating sub q works as well as IM.

I hear you.

A few thoughts: when you tested levels in the past, were you testing them in a consistent way (x number of hours and/or days post injection for IM and same number of hours/days for SC)? This could account for some differences, as the absorption rates are different.

Also, in defense of @ivkonst2017's theory, it appears (can't confirm) that when we are quoting the efficacy of SC injections, were are referencing the Xyosted study. It should be noted that Xyosted is pure esterfied testosterone without alcohol or preservatives. It is possible that the pharmacodynamics of Xyosted are different from typical enanthate from a vial.

 

[ivkonst2017]

(x number of hours and/or days post injection for IM and same number of hours/days for SC)? This could account for some differences, as the absorption rates are different

I always test before injection, except a few times when Ive tested on purpose on peak, but I have not quotted those tests here. Also I always use the same lab which is with the highest reputation in my country.

If the studies in defence of sub q are perferomed with testosterone withot alcohol that would explain why they can be very far from the reality. In the real world we use alcohol in the testosterone and maybe this is what causes the sub q nodules.

PAGRAPH FOR THEORIES - By the way many people consider the sustanon that I use to be even worse for sub q for two possible reasons - higher alcohol volume and peanut oil. Ive heard cypionate is best for sub q, but still I havent heard of an estet that is not good for IM

PS. I use capital case so some people can make a very clear distinction between my experience and results which are facts, and my theories. Dont take it as shouting to you please

 

[ivkonst2017]

@Fortunate Also some people here may wonder why I spend so much time explaining how and why sub q didnt work well for people I know and how much lost time this caused us. As you understand I gain nothing from that, just wasting my time. I do it for the guys that may experience similar issues and wonder what the hell is goin on.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Also, in defense of @ivkonst2017's theory, it appears (can't confirm) that when we are quoting the efficacy of SC injections, were are referencing the Xyosted study. It should be noted that Xyosted is pure esterfied testosterone without alcohol or preservatives. It is possible that the pharmacodynamics of Xyosted are different from typical enanthate from a vial.

This affects the pharmacokinetics, not the pharmacodynamics. As I mentioned above, a testosterone ester cannot be used until it hits the bloodstream, where the esterase enzymes cleave the ester. IM and SC may involve different ways to get to the bloodstream, but this affects the observed rate of absorption and not the areas under the curves for serum testosterone. In theory if you inject standard enanthate more frequently and at lower doses then you should be able to mimic what serum testosterone does with Xyosted.

...A friend of mine when he started TRT on sub q doing sub q 210mg per week was getting initially around 1200ng/dl total t and was feeling fine. Again he was doing it daily and his stomach got ful of nodules. He was doing daily as well. At some point he started feeling like TRT is no longer working and tested, total t wad 800 and something. ...

Speaking from experience I can say that if one develops injection site swelling or "nodules" and continues to inject in these areas then leakage becomes more common. If someone is injecting 30 mg TC daily at 200 mg/mL then that's only 0.15 mL at a time. It would be easy to lose 0.05 mL and not be aware of it. To be sure about something like this you need to leave the injection site undisturbed for a couple minutes and then inspect with good lighting.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Speaking from experience I can say that if one develops injection site swelling or "nodules" and continues to inject in these areas then leakage becomes more common. If someone is injecting 30 mg TC daily at 200 mg/mL then that's only 0.15 mL at a time. It would be easy to lose 0.05 mL and not be aware of it. To be sure about something like this you need to leave the injection site undisturbed for a couple minutes and then inspect with good lighting.

And this nodules or swelling is common to sub q. I can tell you with our sustanon on often injections there is no way the stomach doesnt get full of them, although a few people have reported me not having them with this product, but most do get them. On me for example every single injection created one and soon there was no clear place to inject.

 

[Fortunate]

@Fortunate Also some people here may wonder why I spend so much time explaining how and why sub q didnt work well for people I know and how much lost time this caused us. As you understand I gain nothing from that, just wasting my time. I do it for the guys that may experience similar issues and wonder what the hell is goin on.

No arguments here on what works for you personally. I think the debate is more about anecdotal information vs. information derived in a specific way that allows one to make broad and general statements.

Bottom line, I fully believe IM works better for you. My main curiosity was why? I think you answered it by essentially saying it is because your levels about better on IM. The reason I was asking is I personally have struggled with just about every from of TRT, including injections. I have not pinpointed why injections make me feel shitty. Theories include: the ester; the oil; the pharmacokinetics; estrogen; IM vs. SC, etc. Part of me was hoping you’d say IM works better for reasons outside of what it does for your levels.

Bottom line: do what works for you.

 

[ivkonst2017]

The reason I was asking is I personally have struggled with just about every from of TRT, including injections. I have not pinpointed why injections make me feel shitty. Theories include: the ester; the oil; the pharmacokinetics; estrogen; IM vs. SC, etc. Part of me was hoping you’d say IM works better for reasons outside of what it does for your levels.

Yep, also only one ester works for me.

I have felt good on TRT only on sustanon(never tried propionate though but its not practical to use prop) and on enanthate and cypionate I feel way worse than pre TRT on similar dosages and blood levels as the sustanon.

 

[Fortunate]

Yep, also only one ester works for me.

I have felt good on TRT only on sustanon(never tried propionate though but its not practical to use prop) and on enanthate and cypionate I feel way worse than pre TRT on similar dosages and blood levels as the sustanon.

Same oil?

 

[ivkonst2017]

Same oil?

Sustanon is always peanut oil.

Ive tried two pharmaceutic brands enanthate one with olive, the other with castor. The cypionate was UGL, but still the negatives were very similar to the two pharmaceutical enanthates - unexplained terrible apathy 24/7 that Ive never experienced before that in my life.

On sustanon I feel like a man on TRT is supposed to feel.

 

[Fortunate]

Sustanon is always peanut oil.

Ive tried two pharmaceutic brands enanthate one with olive, the other with castor. The cypionate was UGL, but still the negatives were very similar to the two pharmaceutical enanthates - unexplained terrible apathy 24/7 that Ive never experienced before that in my life.

On sustanon I feel like a man on TRT is supposed to feel.

Interesting. I have tried various oils and esters and always feel bad. Unfortunately, Sustanon is not available in the US. Really glad that it works for you.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Interesting. I have tried various oils and esters and always feel bad. Unfortunately, Sustanon is not available in the US. Really glad that it works for you.

Just for the record have you tried prop? I know it is available there

 

[Fortunate]

I have, but very briefly. Made me anxious. Probably not right dose, but don't have the appetite to try again for the time being.

 

[Mr.63]

Sustanon is always peanut oil.

Ive tried two pharmaceutic brands enanthate one with olive, the other with castor. The cypionate was UGL, but still the negatives were very similar to the two pharmaceutical enanthates - unexplained terrible apathy 24/7 that Ive never experienced before that in my life.

On sustanon I feel like a man on TRT is supposed to feel.

@ivkonst2017
What is your dose on sustanon and how many times per week do you inject?

 

[ivkonst2017]

@ivkonst2017
What is your dose on sustanon and how many times per week do you inject?

I inject 140mg in total split into EOD(40mg per dose). That puts my total t between 1300 and 1450 provided I also use 750 ui HCG.
I plan to change to E3D but now I have a lot of work and dont want to put my body through the stress of a protocol change.