Daily Intramuscular injections.

[Cataceous]

This doesnt bring enough practical value, if you cannot apply it to a real world protocol. Man, it seems to me you are interested in exploring theories and studies, but I think most people writing in this forum who have issues with a protocol just want to start feeling good. Im also interested in that when someone asks for advice - to give him a solution that would resolve his issues, not theories and IFs.
...

Your previous comments highlight the importance of controlled studies. You're extrapolating your own unusual uncontrolled results to the entire population, leading you to give bad advice. According to you most men won't do well with SC injections and most men need a dose greater than 100 mg per week. Then you are unable to explain the success of the Xyosted product, which is SC testosterone enanthate with a maximum dose of 100 mg per week.

...
Such study would be much more worthy with some practical protocols - 150mg of enanthate, cypionate and sustanon split in bi weekly and EOD injections for example in IM and sub q. The other problem here is you cannot make IM and sub q blind so you gotta find people without bias.

The protocol I proposed for our study is actually fairly practical under the circumstances. It's just basic TRT, with the idea being to get steady serum testosterone so that ester pharmacokinetics don't influence the results. You're already trying to introduce more variables—different esters—which would make it harder to link causes to effects. I explained above how to blind the IM/SC injections: you get one injection with each method at the same time, with only one containing the testosterone. Only at the conclusion of the study is it revealed which contained the testosterone.

 

[ivkonst2017]

The protocol I proposed for our study is actually fairly practical under the circumstances. It's just basic TRT, with the idea being to get steady serum testosterone so that ester pharmacokinetics don't influence the results. You're already trying to introduce more variables—different esters—which would make it harder to link causes to effects. I explained above how to blind the IM/SC injections: you get one injection with each method at the same time, with only one containing the testosterone. Only at the conclusion of the study is it revealed which contained the testosterone

For the control part I agree. For using undecanoate I dont. This is an ester that very few people feel well on no matter if they use it IM or sub q qnd even I know a few who tried dosing it weekly at good doasages and still dont feel like they are on a proper protocol of enanthate or sustanon.

One of them especially was doing that because he has bad allergic reaction to the peanut oil in sustanon
Sustanon(under the brand omnadren what I use) and nebido are the only pharmaceutical compounds in my country, enanthate can be ordered for Greece but his doc was not willing to give him prescription for enanthate. At the end he is using UGL enanthate now but thats another story.

Long story short I know at least 20 people in Europe who tried nebido, it is expensive and it is what most endos will try to put you on first. None of this 20 people ended up feeling good on nebido, so I see no practical value in designing any study with that. What information it will give to the average American reader of this forum who uses cypionate and for some unknown to us reason he feels bad on his sub q protocol? How this study will help him understand whether he needs to try IM injections or look for the issue otside of the TRT protocol?

If you have scientific interest in pharmacology, good for you. I dont. My interest is limited to helping myself and the other people in the forum feel good, optimized without causing harm.

 

[Cataceous]

For the control part I agree. For using undecanoate I dont. This is an ester that very few people feel well on no matter if they use it IM or sub q qnd even I know a few who tried dosing it weekly at good doasages and still dont feel like they are on a proper protocol of enanthate or sustanon.
...

You can't stop making unsupported generalizations, can you? Can you provide any scientific evidence that when different testosterone esters are dosed to provide similar serum testosterone profiles the results are any different? What about a reasonable hypothesis for any differences? The point is, testosterone undecanoate dosed twice-weekly is going to—eventually—yield quite steady serum testosterone. Daily cypionate or enanthate would likely be similar in most individuals.

... My interest is limited to helping myself and the other people in the forum feel good, optimized without causing harm.

While you have dispensed some good advice, the bad advice mixed in is potentially harmful and must be challenged.

Do you have any comments on Xyosted? It provides strong evidence against your assertions. Are you just going to act like it doesn't exist?

 

[Charliebizz]

You said above you didnt feel as good.

Ive seen two types of sub q doesnt work - first type, the total t is lower; second type - the guy has similar numbers but he doesnt feel as good. One of my friends on top of having lower t levels and feeling like shit on sub q had higher blood counts. Since he transferred to IM he feels better, his total t rose on average of 500ng/dl and his blood counts lowered. He will never do sub q again.

Whatever it is it seems sub q distorts the normal pharmacokinetics of the medication. I dont know why, maybe its with the nodules that build up that would make a lot of sense. But also the simple fact in the pharmacological books it says to inject oil in muscle. And this is what I advise people doing - using the medication the right way.

I personally am not interested in investigating why sub q doesnt work, Im interested in sticking to what works.

I'm going to have to agree with cat. Me not feeling good on sub q could have been a bunch of things. Lab wise everything was the same. Blood counts and all only difference was e2 level. But I was carrying more weight then. Way to many variables to come to that conclusion. I really just made an assumption. I have a lot of trouble with trt making me feel consistent anyway. Possibly be ause I'm a low shbg guy.

Also to note I used to think I felt better on non injection days now I seem to feel better on shot days. So who really knows with me lol

 

[ivkonst2017]

You can't stop making unsupported generalizations, can you? Can you provide any scientific evidence that when different testosterone esters are dosed to provide similar serum testosterone profiles the results are any different? What about a reasonable hypothesis for any differences?

I dont see any PRACTICAL application of your hypothesises and theories. I dont care about theories without practical application.

 

[ivkonst2017]

I'm going to have to agree with cat. Me not feeling good on sub q could have been a bunch of things.

Ok, point taken. But other guys here have reported feeling worse on sub q consistently with similar protocols so their experience for me is worth 1000 times more than all the studies in the world because Ive seen this on enough other places totally independent from this forum, and most important - IN ME.

Now we havea practical situation for you and @Cataceous - if you and him believe sub q should work well enough as IM the answer for your problem is simple - you do daily sub q, because doing daily IM is at least to say difficult. So with all his studies what advise would he give you here Im interested?

 

[Gman86]

No matter how many studies you quote, this wont change the simple fact: SUB Q doesnt work for everyone.

Personally experienced by me, and reported by enough people here. Since the short time Ive joined the forum I've read approxiamatelly 10 people reporting that including the OP.

Hence why studies aren’t the end all be all, no matter how much people want to think they are. They’re just one piece of the puzzle. Just like with everything else in life it’s about balance.

 

[Willyt]

Hey guys I'm currently on m-w-f injections. Ive actually started to feel way better on shot days on Im vs sub q. However through years of testing my t levels drop off quite a bit 24 hrs post injection. I respond very well to lower doses. 90mg a week has my ft slightly over range. And TT around 900 8hrs post injection. The following morning around I drop about 50 points off free t and TT down to 490 24-26 hrs post injection.

I never really felt good doing sub q. I never used an a.i in my life but on sub q my e2 is well above range and i.m it's in a great spot on paper. So question is anyone doing daily I.m ? Not really a fan of all those injections. And I only really have done shallow I m in the Delts.

Why not try alternating each day between shallow IM and Subq? It may help to even out any actual or perceived differences, especially with medium ester like Enanthate.

When I finally learned proper technique for Subq that is exactly what I started doing with daily Propionate because I felt that I would have difficult time complying with daily IM injections over the long haul. Couple times per week is more doable and I like being able to rotate injection sites.

Shallow IM - Easy Touch 29g x 1/2 rotating between shoulders and ventro-glute
SubQ - Easy Touch 31g x 5/16 abdomen

 

[madman]

I remember in my first opinions here when I asked how to inject IM EOD in the same muscles and stated sub q doesnt work for me you had put that under doubt and suggested that the reason may be something else.

If I were a person more willing to follow outside advise without first adhering to my own experience I would probably start again a sub q protocol BASED ON YOUR OPINION which would do only harm for me - more time wasted in feeling bad.

Do you see how careful should one be when giving advice to people especially when he has some position in a forum? What good would make a person, who claims sub q mskes him feel bad receive advice from you that this is very unlikely and the problem must be somewhere else? Then this person continues to struggle to make sub q work. Ive wasted a few week like that but Ive also seen in fb groups people receiving such advice and wasting much more time

Your 3rd thread on Excel (April 24).....8 days after you joined the forum!

Laid everything out for you plain and simple and nowhere did I tell you to stick with sub-q.

Lying now, are we?

You were given solid advice let alone the sad fact of the matter is you never gave any of your protocols a fighting chance and if anything far and few of them.

You clearly lack the understanding of how exogenous T works!



April 24/2021 (post #7)

Short vs long esters

Hello. I very much hope the great people and expertise in this forum to be able to help me. And my case is quite complicated. As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way...

www.excelmale.com

and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change? I think this was the first pitfall.

My reply:
Seems odd that in the first 3 months (12 weeks) everything was great using the same protocol (ester/sub-q injections) then all of a sudden your body supposedly stopped absorbing the T.

If such was the case with absorption strictly sub-q it would have more than likely happened much sooner.....not 12 weeks in.




I know you are proponent of sub-q injections, but when my stomach was full of nodules everywhere my levels fell with 40 percent and the way I felt transferred from from God-like to like pre-TRT.

My reply:
If such is truly the case then it is plain and simple.....stick with strictly IM

Do what you feel is best for you!




I then tried sub-q enanthate(8 weeks) and shallow IM UGL cyionate protocol(8 weeks) achieving levels of 800-1000 when for the corresponding dose of 160mg per week I was expecting at least 1300. Also I felt way worse on enan and cyp compared to the sustanon on the fallen levels.
When my levels on sustanon fell I just started to feel pretty much like before TRT, but on the long single esters I felt UNKNOWN apathy and sluggishness and the further I was getting into their protocols the worse I felt, to the point in the last week of the sub-q enanthate protocol I was falling asleep at work and almost got kicked out of my job.

My reply:
Again you only gave each protocol 8 weeks and trough TT was in the high end which would have your trough FT level on the high end with an SHBG 30 nmol/L.

You were definitely hitting healthy T levels but even then I would need to see full labs and top it off that I am not too fond of UGL gear!

If you truly felt horrible using such esters (IM or sub-q) when compared to Sustanon then go back to using Sus.

Hope you understand that the main ester used in Sustanon is decanoate (100 mg to boot) which is longer acting than cypionate/enanthate!




Then somebody suggested to me to try sustanon IM and at that point my test levels climbed quickly and the way I felt abruptly improved. I quickly got improvements, in a matter of 3-4 weeks even less and started to feel really great, not like the first 2-3 months of TRT, but lets say 80 percent of that.
And now 2-3 months ago I decided to try to ease my life and reduce a life-long sequence of deep IM injections, which was the whole point of transferring to enanthate.

My reply:
Again if you feel best on Sustanon then why waste your time with enanthate/cypionate.

The easier fix is to inject shallow IM using a fixed LDS insulin syringe 27-29G x 1/2" (12.7MM) needle length.

Pain/scar tissue will be minimal.....problem solved!




On the other hand provided every time I've started sustanon I GOT QUICK IMPROVEMENTS do you think there might be some action of it that stimulates my endocrine or nervous system to make me feel good, action that is not present from the slow steady release of the single long esters? We know sustanon is very different with all of its downsides like being very difficult to dial in.

My reply:
If you truly felt better using Sustanon then stick with what you feel is best.

Even then I would try lowering your overall weekly T-dose then get labs done in 6 weeks and if T levels are healthy give it at least another 2 months before claiming your protocol using enanthate is a failure.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember in my first opinions here when I asked how to inject IM EOD in the same muscles and stated sub q doesnt work for me you had put that under doubt and suggested that the reason may be something else.

First and foremost you never gave most of your protocols a fighting chance!

Made it clear to you numerous times on the forum that there should be no difference in the absorption/effectiveness of T when injecting sub-q vs IM.

Yes, some men may not do well when injecting sub-q but it is far from common.

Let alone it is far from common that one would not be able to achieve a healthy let alone high TT/FT on such protocol.

Yet you continue to claim that sub-q is inferior to IM let alone make it sound as if everyone and their brother is having a bad experience on such and to make matters worse claim that the absorption/effectiveness is subpar compared to IM injections.

Are there outliers that may not achieve good numbers.....sure but again it is far from f**king common.



If I were a person more willing to follow outside advise without first adhering to my own experience I would probably start again a sub q protocol BASED ON YOUR OPINION which would do only harm for me - more time wasted in feeling bad.

Sensible advice was laid out to you in post #7 (thread posted above) when you first came on the forum.....yet you are the same idiot switching up your protocol off the hop because you do not feel well.

Put money on it that you never put the time in on most protocols whether IM or sub-q that you have tried.

As I stated numerous times on the forum the first 6 weeks mean nothing when looking at the bigger picture.

No one including me stated you need to start/stay with injecting sub-q let alone state that it is considered the end all be all!

It's hilarious that on my first reply in post #7 of your thread from (April 24) you were all fine and dandy 12 weeks in on a strictly-sub-q protocol..... then all of a sudden your numbers dropped and now sub-q is bad for you or anyone one considering let alone on trt.....LMFAO.....you clearly stated.....and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change? I think this was the first pitfall.

Could have stopped right here as you clearly burned yourself.....first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q




Do you see how careful should one be when giving advice to people especially when he has some position in a forum?

I have given sensible advice numerous times on the forum.....what you choose to do with such is all on you.

Again as I have stated many times do what you feel is best for you!

The issue I have is when people come on here and spew misinformation.


*You claim that.....sub-q is inferior to IM let alone make it sound as if everyone and their brother is having a bad experience on such and to make matters worse claim that the absorption/effectiveness is subpar compared to IM injections

*You claim that.....there is a very high chance someone starting TRT for the first time on sub q wont be able to experience FEELING enough of the effects of therapy so I would strongly advise anyone against that.

 

[madman]

I remember in my first opinions here when I asked how to inject IM EOD in the same muscles and stated sub q doesnt work for me you had put that under doubt and suggested that the reason may be something else.

If I were a person more willing to follow outside advise without first adhering to my own experience I would probably start again a sub q protocol BASED ON YOUR OPINION which would do only harm for me - more time wasted in feeling bad.

Do you see how careful should one be when giving advice to people especially when he has some position in a forum? What good would make a person, who claims sub q mskes him feel bad receive advice from you that this is very unlikely and the problem must be somewhere else? Then this person continues to struggle to make sub q work. Ive wasted a few week like that but Ive also seen in fb groups people receiving such advice and wasting much more time

This is classic!

It's hilarious that on my first reply in post #7 of your thread from (April 24) you were all fine and dandy 12 weeks in on a strictly-sub-q protocol.....then all of a sudden your numbers dropped and now sub-q is bad for you or anyone one considering let alone on trt.....LMFAO..... you clearly stated.....and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change? I think this was the first pitfall.

Could have stopped right here as you clearly burned yourself.....first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q



This is coming from the F**KING guy spewing this bullshit!

*there is a very high chance someone starting TRT for the first time on sub q wont be able to experience FEELING enough of the effects of therapy so I would strongly advise anyone against that.

* sub-q is inferior to IM

*absorption/effectiveness of SUB-Q is subpar compared to IM injections

 

[ivkonst2017]

Could have stopped right here as you clearly burned yourself.....first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q

Yes exactly, and there is a reason for that. I think I know what it is and it is exactly because sub q is inferior injection method.

And be carrful with cursing, I dont care you are super admin mind your mouth!

 

[ivkonst2017]

You were given solid advice let alone the sad fact of the matter is you never gave any of your protocols a fighting chance and if anything far and few of them

This is total bulshit. I gave all my protocols enough time to work FOR ME, at least 8 weeks. I stated to you several times this is MORE than ENOUGH for me and more than that if I feel bad is a WASTE OF TIME! And please dont come upe again with the lecture how exogenous t works... I know well enough how it works. You are the one quotting all the time studies and guidelines, while we have enough examples often in the real life the things are a bit different. You can stick to the studies, I will continue to stick wity the real life experience.

Im on my current protocol since 7th of May and Im pretty happy with it. And voala - it started working well just 4 weeks after I started it and after week 6-8 I havent FELT any other changes. Everytime it is like that.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Why not try alternating each day between shallow IM and Subq? It may help to even out any actual or perceived differences, especially with medium ester like Enanthate.

When I finally learned proper technique for Subq that is exactly what I started doing with daily Propionate because I felt that I would have difficult time complying with daily IM injections over the long haul. Couple times per week is more doable and I like being able to rotate injection sites.

Shallow IM - Easy Touch 29g x 1/2 rotating between shoulders and ventro-glute
SubQ - Easy Touch 31g x 5/16 abdomen

Thats interesting idea, for someone who likes to use propionate. For me not having tried prop outiside of sustanon the biggest problem with seems it is 100mg/ml

 

[ivkonst2017]

Also just for reference about the whole discussion about how long to wait about a protocol change:

I started NDT a few days ago. T4 has similar half life of testosterone enanthate. My provider(not the legally correct word here) who is very exoerienced in HRT said: Blood work 6 weeks from now and reeevaluation based on symptoms and blood work whether dose should be increased. He said 6 weeks, not 3-4 months or whatever. Its not me saying that.

By the way things for me have improved in the last months first because I went back to sustanon, and second because I found an arrangement with him so we can work together regularly, just with sporadic consultations I was basically on my own and working with exlerienced specialist who is from abroad is a bit challenging. Thats why I say to the guys here not having experienced provider in your area shouldnt force you settle for an inexperienced one.

 

[madman]

Yes exactly, and there is a reason for that. I think I know what it is and it is exactly because sub q is inferior injection method.

And be carrful with cursing, I dont care you are super admin mind your mouth!

Like I said I could see right through you!

Blowing smoke out your ass.

The truth finally comes out.....and in the first 3 months everything was great, UNTIL I stopped absorbing sub-q and my levels fell significantly in a matter of weeks on the same dose without a protocol change? I think this was the first pitfall.

You felt great on sub-q!

Running your mouth all this time and it comes back to bite you in the ass.

Keep digging that hole deeper.....bruh!

Tread lightly on the shit you spew on here otherwise you are bound to get called out.

 

[madman]

This is total bulshit. I gave all my protocols enough time to work FOR ME, at least 8 weeks. I stated to you several times this is MORE than ENOUGH for me and more than that if I feel bad is a WASTE OF TIME! And please dont come upe again with the lecture how exogenous t works... I know well enough how it works. You are the one quotting all the time studies and guidelines, while we have enough examples often in the real life the things are a bit different. You can stick to the studies, I will continue to stick wity the real life experience.

Im on my current protocol since 7th of May and Im pretty happy with it. And voala - it started working well just 4 weeks after I started it and after week 6-8 I havent FELT any other changes. Everytime it is like that.

This is total bulshit. I gave all my protocols enough time to work FOR ME, at least 8 weeks. I stated to you several times this is MORE than ENOUGH for me and more than that if I feel bad is a WASTE OF TIME!

Read this thread over and over!

Short vs long esters

Hello. I very much hope the great people and expertise in this forum to be able to help me. And my case is quite complicated. As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way...

www.excelmale.com

Clear as the day you are clueless when it comes to how exogenous esterified T works.




And please dont come upe again with the lecture how exogenous t works... I know well enough how it works. You are the one quotting all the time studies and guidelines, while we have enough examples often in the real life the things are a bit different. You can stick to the studies, I will continue to stick wity the real life experience.

LMFAO!

 

[ivkonst2017]

End of discussion for me. You continue to recommend what you consider right, I continue to recommend what I consider right. None of us will change his stance on these two subjects

 

[Anonymon]

This thread’s a good example of how everyone needs to find what works for them and take all the ‘studies’ in the world with a grain of salt. Nothing can compare to your own experience, provided you give it time and evaluate it carefully.

This all reminds me of thyroid meds. Some people do great on T4. Some people do great on T3. Some people do great with both, or NDT. Everybody’s different. They’re all theoretically interchangeable and practically not at all interchangeable for many.

The differences in how people feel based on the injection method probably have nothing to do with how it affects your TT or FT in the same way that taking something like pregnenolone in a pill vs transdermal can effect people wildly differently. In that case you can say skin has a lot of 5AR in it and there’s a theoretical mechanism, but just because we don’t know what might be different when injecting in the muscle vs skin doesn’t mean the endless anecdotes of some guys doing better on one method vs the other are them blowing smoke out their ass. You’d think it’d all be the same since it has to go through the liver to metabolize, but we find out new things about all this every day. Us sticking ourselves in the ass and talking about it’s the forefront of HRT, not a lab.

Although I inject subQ and have never tried otherwise, I know more guys that actually say they felt better on IM. And I have no reason not to believe them because of something I found on PubMed. If you do fine on SubQ I think it’d be superior for ease of injection and lack of scarring, but I do believe all the people saying IM works better for them. It’s kind of weird if you think about it to tell a bunch of folks what’s working for them isn’t working for them for reasons unknown. It’s gaslighting at a certain point. I get that if one guy shows up blowing out nonsense you scrutinize it, but it’s not one guy. A lot of guys feel better on IM. To what end should we gaslight them? Because we prefer SubQ?

IM vs SubQ is just another lever someone can pull when trying HRT to make it work for them.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Although I inject subQ and have never tried otherwise, I know more guys that actually say they felt better on IM. And I have no reason not to believe them because of something I found on PubMed.

Eaxctly, my point The statement 'the studies say so, so your opinion contradicting them is wrong' is very sulerficial, people should understand how little of the whole picture the studies show us, how limited they are.

Also I argued above how such study should be designed and how it seems worthless to me designing it in unrealistic in the real world scenario.

I think the best doctors do the best that can be done with the science we have: They know the studies, but they also have the ANECDOTAL SUBJECTIVe experience of a lot of patients. And based on that for example my provider says: 'I think its better you start TRT on IM, like this you have highest chance to resolve your symptoms'(he also encourages people to use IM). Or about thyroid he says: "In my experience most people react best to NDT, so you can try first that". And unlike me he continues reading studies regularly because this is his job, Ive personally stopped investing time in that and I pay him to manage me.

And at the end he doesnt know for sure what will work for me before tryibg, and he says he still is not sure why only sustanon works for me, I'm the first like that in his practice and normally he is not a fan of sustanon

 

[Cataceous]

...
The differences in how people feel based on the injection method probably have nothing to do with how it affects your TT or FT in the same way that taking something like pregnenolone in a pill vs transdermal can effect people wildly differently. ...

This is a poor analogy because the pharmacodynamics of oral and transdermal administration of pregnenolone can be quite different. In contrast, the pharmacodynamics of IM and SC injections of testosterone esters are the same. Testosterone esters are relatively inert until the esters are cleaved. Regardless of injection method, this cleaving doesn't occur until the esters reach the bloodstream. This leaves the modest variability in the pharmacokinetics as the only plausible explanation for differences, assuming no loss of dose.

... It’s kind of weird if you think about it to tell a bunch of folks what’s working for them isn’t working for them for reasons unknown. It’s gaslighting at a certain point. I get that if one guy shows up blowing out nonsense you scrutinize it, but it’s not one guy. A lot of guys feel better on IM. To what end should we gaslight them? Because we prefer SubQ?
...

That's a straw man argument. If someone thinks he does better with IM injections then nobody's telling him to stop. We're pushing back against the incorrect statement that SC injections are ineffective for "most" and the similarly wrong idea that "most" men need more than 100 mg per week on TRT. There's abundant and solid scientific evidence on these points, so it's not simply a difference of opinions. It's science versus myth.