Ceasing TRT Cold Turkey After Three Years - Restart Log

[cigpk]

My doctor was explaining to me that one of the reasons testosterone is a controlled substance it’s because of its addictive property. Or rather the dependency men develop. Addiction would be more like I take 100mg and later I need 200mg and so on.

Hmmm yeah I mean my experience is that my Free T was 4 (9-26) before trt. Now it hovers around 15-23 (9-26) so I am by no means supraphysiological.

However, if I was to drop T and go back to a free T of 4 and total T under 200, I would feel miserable and immediately want to be back on TRT. In that sense, i have a dependence on it. However, if I was told it was killing me I believe I would be able to quit immediately. From someone who has been clean and sober off heroin and alcohol for over 4 years, that was not the case with those substances.

So I do believe I have a dependence on it. But I don’t abuse it like I did other addictive substances. It’s addictive in a different sense for me.

 

[PhantomFear]

Week 5: 16/07/19
Bloods:

Iron Status:
CRP HS: 4.05 mg/L (Range: < 5)
Iron: 32.68 umol/L (Range: 5.8 - 34.5)
TIBC: 50.58 umol/L (Range: 45 - 72)
UIBC: X 17.9 umol/ L (Range: 22.3 - 61.7)
Transferrin Saturation: X 64.61 % (Range: 20 - 50)
Ferritin: 205 ug/L (Range: 30 - 400)

Thyroid:
TSH: 1.45 mIU/L (Range: 0.27 - 4.2)
Free T3: 5.33 pmol/L (Range: 3.1 - 6.8)
Free Thyroxine: 17.100 pmol/L (Range: 12 - 22)
Thyroglobulin Antibodies: <10 kU/L (Range: < 115)
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies: <9.0 kIU/L (Range: < 34)

From the little I know about iron bloods, mine seem to suggest iron overload. This may explain my erection, libido, heart palpitation and GI issues I had on TRT despite bloods looking great. Going to look into this now, but I'd be grateful if someone who's knowledgeable about this could weigh in.

Thyroid bloods look much better than last month. I started eating 3-4 brazil nuts a day for the selenium content, so that may be a factor. Iron issues + cortisol (bloods come back tomorrow) may be cause of 'hypothyroid' symptoms I've had the last year or two.

I get total t, shbg, lh, fsh and e2 bloods back tomorrow.

Still feeling very tired and low on energy, though erections and libido have improved somewhat - I actually 'notice' attractive women now.

I started taking vitamin D3, K2 and a fish oil tablet (contains EFA's + Vit D3 + Vit A), when I take them all together I get what feels like bone pain and changes in bowel movements. D3 alone doesn't cause this, so just using that at the minute.

Also having a lot of teeth and gum issues. Getting a lot of mouth ulcers and teeth have become extremely sensitive.

As always, as advice or thoughts are welcome.

 

[PhantomFear]

This study suggests testosterone suppresses hepcidin.

Hoping this is the cause of my iron overload.

 

[Systemlord]

This may explain my erection, libido, heart palpitation and GI issues I had on TRT despite bloods looking great.

Recently I over supplemented iron and had GI issues, effected libido and caused heart palpitations.

 

[Mr S]

Hmmm yeah I mean my experience is that my Free T was 4 (9-26) before trt. Now it hovers around 15-23 (9-26) so I am by no means supraphysiological.

However, if I was to drop T and go back to a free T of 4 and total T under 200, I would feel miserable and immediately want to be back on TRT. In that sense, i have a dependence on it. However, if I was told it was killing me I believe I would be able to quit immediately. From someone who has been clean and sober off heroin and alcohol for over 4 years, that was not the case with those substances.

So I do believe I have a dependence on it. But I don’t abuse it like I did other addictive substances. It’s addictive in a different sense for me.

I agree. It’s a significant difference. I stopped cold turkey and no issues. However, if testosterone is used for something besides TRT at super physiological amounts, yes, T will become addictive since the need for bulking it’s a greater than safety. There might be cases in which TRT isn’t really necessary and it’s sold as a product. Once you have suppressed your natural endogenous production of testosterone you will have become hypogonadic hence the need for TRT would have been created. It can become a vicious cycle.

 

[PhantomFear]

After 5 weeks of no testosterone and 2 weeks of no HCG, here are my levels (bloods six hours after waking fasted):

Testosterone: 15.6 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)
FSH: X 1.47 IU/L (Range: 1.5 - 12.4)
LH: 3.61 IU/L (Range: 1.7 - 8.6)
Oestradiol: 87.3 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)
Free Testosterone - Calc: 0.297 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)
Free Androgen Index: 44.83 Ratio (Range: 24 - 104)
Prolactin: 132 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)

DHEA Sulphate 6.620 umol/L (Range: 5.73 - 13.4)
Albumin 47.7 g/L (Range: 35 - 50)
SHBG 34.8 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1)

Cortisol - Waking: 17.500 nmol/L (Range: 6 - 21)
Cortisol - 12:00: 4.680 nmol/L (Range: 1.5 - 7.6)
Cortisol - 16:00: 2.550 nmol/L (Range: 0 - 5.5)
Cortisol - Before Bed: <1.5 nmol/L (Range: 0 - 2)

Really happy with these results! 15.6 nmol/L / 450 ng/dL won't be considered 'optimal' by many on here, but considering I came off cold turkey and it's only been two weeks since I stopped the HCG, I think things can only go up from here. Erections have returned, libido is up and my severe anxiety has gone! Hopefully FSH will come up into range once I've been off a little longer.

 

[Systemlord]

After 5 weeks of no testosterone and 2 weeks of no HCG, here are my levels (bloods six hours after waking fasted):

Testosterone: 15.6 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)
FSH: X 1.47 IU/L (Range: 1.5 - 12.4)
LH: 3.61 IU/L (Range: 1.7 - 8.6)
Oestradiol: 87.3 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)
Free Testosterone - Calc: 0.297 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)
Free Androgen Index: 44.83 Ratio (Range: 24 - 104)
Prolactin: 132 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)

DHEA Sulphate 6.620 umol/L (Range: 5.73 - 13.4)
Albumin 47.7 g/L (Range: 35 - 50)
SHBG 34.8 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1)

You have a lot more to work with than myself, I have the same LH and 4.12 nmol/L or 119 ng/dL, 120 ng/dL pre-TRT.

I'll trade labs with you any day.

 

[PhantomFear]

You have a lot more to work with than myself, I have the same LH and 4.12 nmol/L or 119 ng/dL, 120 ng/dL pre-TRT.

I'll trade labs with you any day.

When are you planning on getting back on TRT? Once your iron is dialled in?

 

[Systemlord]

When are you planning on getting back on TRT? Once your iron is dialled in?

Soon, trying to get my vitamin D up, it was one of the labs subterrain pre-TRT and the entire time on TRT. It would seem after more than two months supplementing 50,000 vitamin D, it's still below range.

I've added 5000 daily. I'm switching to iron C glycinate 15mg M/W/F once my iron drops lower, I seem to respond better than the iron tablets.

I experienced iron overload twice and most unpleasant, seems to shoot insulin skyhigh and a bunch of other symptoms.

 

[FLguy123]

@PhantomFear

how are you feeling these days still being off everything?

 

[fifty]

He’s doing amazing. His posts were deleted. Conspiracy

 

[Joe Sixpack]

He’s doing amazing. His posts were deleted. Conspiracy

Are you saying that he had created more posts saying he was doing well, but now the posts have disappeared?

 

[fifty]

Yes he did. They just got deleted because something happened with this forum and they had to revert to a backup database from like early Monday I believe. IIRC his testosterone numbers ended up higher than mid range.

I was kidding on the conspiracy aspect. I’m sure he’ll reply again here.

 

[at15]

thats very good news. interested to hear more @PhantomFear....hair loss, digestion, blood pressure, gym lifts, etc.

 

[Cataceous]

This [testosterone] is addictive. ...

Not the word I would use. Is the replacement for any important hormone addictive? So liothyronine and prednisone are even more "addictive"? You could be hurting a lot more if you quit these abruptly.

 

[PhantomFear]

Hey everyone! @fifty was right - I updated this post a while ago but the posts got deleted for whatever reason.

Here are the bloods from the last post:

Testosterone: 20.2 (8.64 - 29) nmol/L
Estradiol: 75.1 (41 - 149) pmol/L
LH: 5.27 (1.7 - 8.6) IU/L
FSH: 1.34 (1.5 - 12.4) IU/L
Prolactin: 112 (86 - 324) mU/L
SHBG: 30.7 (18.3 - 54.1) nmol/L
Albumin: 49.5 (35 - 50) g/L

TSH: 1.52 (0.27 - 4.2) mIU/L
FT3: 4.6 (3.1 - 6.8) pmol/L
FT4: 16.4 (12 - 22) pmol/L

Iron: 32.68 umol/L (Range: 5.8 - 34.5)
TIBC: 50.58 umol/L (Range: 45 - 72)
UIBC: X 17.9 umol/ L (Range: 22.3 - 61.7)
Transferrin Saturation: X 64.61 % (Range: 20 - 50)
Ferritin: 205 ug/L (Range: 30 - 400)

How I currently feel:

1. Erections and libido are much, much better than they ever were on TRT. Still not 100%, but things continue to improve
2. Penis sensitivity has massively improved.
3. Strength levels took a massive dip after initially coming off, but have almost returned to where they were on TRT
4. Blood pressure has dropped massively. On TRT I averaged 130/80, now I average 115/60.
5. I’ve lost about 5kg of weight in total despite little to no change in energy expenditure or calorie intake. I can only assume that was water retention as I always had a puffy face on TRT which has now completely gone.
6. Hair loss is actually much worse now. I can pull any hair on the top of my head now and it’ll come out. I have zero hairline recession, just thinning over the entire top in a diffuse pattern. My eyebrows are also thinning quite badly too.
7. Thyroid issues are still present despite bloods looking better. Low oral body temps, thinning hair / eyebrows, cold hands and feet, calluses and soles of feet have an orange tint. I’m due some more thyroid bloods soon, and I’m also investigating other avenues like vitamin D, B12, Zinc, Magnesium and Folate.
8. My iron blood work is still looking funky. Serum iron and transferrin saturation are high which suggests iron overload. Still waiting to see a haematologist to get tested for hereditary haematochrosis. I donated blood to try and get iron down; serum iron didn’t budge and my ferratin dropped from 200 to 40. Don’t have those bloods to hand but I can post them up next week.
9. Digestion issues are still present but have definitely improved.

My current plan moving forward:

1. I’ll have one more blood test to confirm test, e2, prolactin, LH and FSH are still looking good, and then I’ll stop monitoring them.
2. TSH has dropped from 3 on TRT to 1.5 off of everything. I’m going to give my body another few months of recovery to see if thyroid continues to improve. If the hypothyroid symptoms remain I’m going to try low dose dedicated thyroid to see if symptoms improve. I’m also going to correct my vitamin D deficiency and begin supplementing iodine and selenium - iodine has massively raised my body temps the last couple of days so hopefully that continues.
3. I have a feeling the iron issues are having an effect on my thyroid, hair and body as a whole. Hopefully finding the root cause and trying to fix it will help with all of the above.

If anyone has anymore questions feel free to ask. Apologies for taking a while to update the thread, I’ll keep a closer eye on it the next couple of days.

 

[FLguy123]

Can you describe a bit more your hair thinning while on trt and your thoughts?

 

[PhantomFear]

Can you describe a bit more your hair thinning while on trt and your thoughts?

Hair thinning started after a period of prolonged caloric restriction. At the end of that period I could tell my thyroid function was in the gutter; felt cold to my core, just standing was exhausting, sleeping 12 hours a night etc. When I started eating normally again all of those issues went away, but then my hair suddenly started shedding like crazy. The shedding never stops, and my hair has contained to this in a diffuse pattern all over the top.

Because I have no hairline recession and only thinning my hair looks normal when dry. However, when it clumps together when wet you can see how thin it is.

https://imgur.com/a/DrWnGWs

The front half of my head is wet but the back half is dry so you can see what I mean. The second photo is my thinning eyebrows.

If I run my hands through my hair for 30 seconds 50-100 hairs will fall out. I can pull any hair on the top of my head and it’ll break - my hair is incredibly thin, weak, dry and brittle.

I believe my hair loss is thyroid related due to the issues starting after a crash diet, the diffuse pattern w/o rescission and the thinning of the eye brows. The hair growth cycle is incredibly long which is why I’m waiting to see what happens now I’m off of TRT and thyroid bloods are improving before I start taking thyroid meds.

 

[xqfq]

Very interesting, thanks so much for following up here.

You say “progesterone levels have always been well below range despite being on HCG, so it's not unreasonable to assume cortisol is also low.” Could you post your progesterone results? I’d be very interested to see them.

 

[PhantomFear]

Very interesting, thanks so much for following up here.

You say “progesterone levels have always been well below range despite being on HCG, so it's not unreasonable to assume cortisol is also low.” Could you post your progesterone results? I’d be very interested to see them.

I had two blood tests done, the second of which was whilst I was taking 25mg pregnenolone daily.

First reading came back at 0.17, and the second came back at 0.15 (0.2 - 1.2) ng/ml.