Can I build muscle with a TT in the 600s?

[Steve78]

I mean can I actually add some lean gains while doing 80 mg a week of testosterone which puts me at 600 TT?
I usually run test higher to add gains but then my HCT goes up and my BP goes up,,, I’m going to be 45 soon and I want to focus on health now over huge muscles but still wanna look lean and strong.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

I mean can I actually add some lean gains while doing 80 mg a week of testosterone which puts me at 600 TT?
I usually run test higher to add gains but then my HCT goes up and my BP goes up,,, I’m going to be 45 soon and I want to focus on health now over huge muscles but still wanna look lean and strong.

Of course, yes you can. Remember train almost to failure and progressively overload. Eat 40-50 grams of protein 3 to 4 times per day.

Training must be difficult enough. Not these sets with 5 more reps in reserve. Maybe train each muscle group twice per week depending on total sets. Yes 600 TT is plenty. Also, important is your Free T.

 

[Steve78]

Of course, yes you can. Remember train almost to failure and progressively overload. Eat 40-50 grams of protein 3 to 4 times per day.

Training must be difficult enough. Not these sets with 5 more reps in reserve. Maybe train each muscle group twice per week depending on total sets. Yes 600 TT is plenty. Also, important is your Free T.

Yes I need to eat more protein , any tips to get that much protein in? Every protein drink tears up my stomach and I dont like eggs at all

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Yes I need to eat more protein , any tips to get that much protein in? Every protein drink tears up my stomach and I dont like eggs at all

I would just look up how much protein your food/meat has per unit of measure and weigh it. Just remember if you do vegan protein it needs to have enough leucine to activate protein synthesis.

Leucine is the switch and protein is what's used from my understanding.

I do protein shakes like lean body when I just need to reach that minimum protein requirement. They are ok on the stomach, but I understand if you don't tolerate any protein shake well.

 

[madman]

I mean can I actually add some lean gains while doing 80 mg a week of testosterone which puts me at 600 TT?
I usually run test higher to add gains but then my HCT goes up and my BP goes up,,, I’m going to be 45 soon and I want to focus on health now over huge muscles but still wanna look lean and strong.

If you have already been weight-training for years (natty or TRT enhanced) let alone have dabbled with higher doses of T 200+ mg then running a TT 600s is not going to have you adding a lot of muscle.

You will easily be able to remain strong/lean if your diet/training are on point as you are still at an advantage over a natty hitting a TT peak in the 600s.

Your T levels are elevated 24/7 steady-state.

 

[Rabbit91476]

You should be exercising/lifting regularly regardless

 

[Steve78]

You should be exercising/lifting regularly regardless

Yes I’m lifting regularly, just want to cut a little fat and add some lean gains but I don’t want to push the envelope with hormones. The higher I go my health markers get messed up, ie cholesterol, BP, HCT etc

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Yes I’m lifting regularly, just want to cut a little fat and add some lean gains but I don’t want to push the envelope with hormones. The higher I go my health markers get messed up, ie cholesterol, BP, HCT etc

Remember it is much easier to gain muscle when in a slight caloric surplus. 20% bf seems to be an okay number to put on lean mass. You can gain on trt while losing fat but training does have to challenge. Prioritizing protein of course. I think you can be 20% body fat without sacrificing health too much. Getting 10,000 steps in a day is great also.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

You dosage is almost the same as mine and I was able to add muscle (for a while) at that level, but here are a few ideas:
- If you are at or beyond your "genetic maximum" (which is unlikely) then no you won't add much
- Use an approach that emphasizes an increasing number of sets at sub-maximal but challenging weights. For example, on pressing movements that would likely be 10-15 pounds below your absolute maximum. This might look like 4 sets of three adding a set every week until you get to 8 or 10 sets and then adding 5 lbs and restarting at 4 sets. No sets go to failure and the reason is that sets to failure are what really create a longer period of time needed for recovery and limit the amount of total tonnage you can do per workout. Almost no one trains this way but it works, although your rate of progress will eventually slow down. Trying to max out frequently will (at least in my case) lead to overtraining, inability to recover for a 7-day based schedule, and eventually going backwards. What I am describing is similar to how olympic lifters and gymnasts train, who both have plenty of muscle.
- To build muscle, you actually need to work the muscle through the entire range of motion. Almost no one does this, as can be seen with the ever-increasing bounce people use on the bench press until it is basically just a tricep exercise. Learn to coil the muscle on the way down instead of the descent being a controlled drop, and hold the contraction for a few seconds at maximum contraction on movements where you can. Do chin-up and pull-ups starting from a maximum hang.
- If you are injecting twice weekly, consider using an unbalanced dosing schedule timed with your one or two highest volume workouts or the workouts with lagging muscle groups, so that you have a higher peak during the most important anabolic window.
- If you are using a 7 day week, recognize that two days rest may not be enough to recover. You can partially mitigate this by doing different movements, such as flat bench and seated militaries on Monday for example, and incline and decline bench on Thursdays.
- For protein, there are lots so of options such as beef, sardines, canned salmon, oysters, liverwurst, liver, kefir, yogurt and milk. I would avoid chicken due to the omega 6 content, and add carry leucine caps with you to add to lower quality protein if you have, for example, a pasta dish.
- Rice and potatoes are fairly good carbs and you don't want to go too low on the carbs. 150-200 grams is good on the days before your two biggest workouts
- Building overall work capacity is important for multiple reasons and if you have access to a sled, pushing a sled for HIIT work is essential IMO.
- Try to go for a long (weighted, at least an hour) walk or bike ride once a week or so. I've found that helps a lot with leanness and work capacity.

 

[Jerajera]

Some very good advice already about lifting and working out, but I want to address what you mentioned in your OP about dropping your dosage because of issues with hematocrit and BP.

What's your injection frequency? In my personal experience, 80mg 2x/week (160mg/week total) raised my lifelong perfect BP to 160/80 and gave me 24/7 headaches even after waiting 3 months for things to really settle down.

Very quickly after moving to 22mg/day (154mg/week, basically same as 160mg/week), all those negative side effects went away and my hematocrit also came down.

I know @Vince also mentioned not having to donate blood anymore after moving to daily injections.

Maybe something worth trying if you're injecting infrequently. It could easily be the reason behind the negative side effects you're seeing

 

[Steve78]

Some very good advice already about lifting and working out, but I want to address what you mentioned in your OP about dropping your dosage because of issues with hematocrit and BP.

What's your injection frequency? In my personal experience, 80mg 2x/week (160mg/week total) raised my lifelong perfect BP to 160/80 and gave me 24/7 headaches even after waiting 3 months for things to really settle down.

Very quickly after moving to 22mg/day (154mg/week, basically same as 160mg/week), all those negative side effects went away and my hematocrit also came down.

I know @Vince also mentioned not having to donate blood anymore after moving to daily injections.

Maybe something worth trying if you're injecting infrequently. It could easily be the reason behind the negative side effects you're seeing

Ok cause I’m on 112 mg right now has my TT at 895, I do it every 3 days. Was thinking 80 which should put me at 600 TT . But I think I like your approach better

 

[Jerajera]

Ok cause I’m on 112 mg right now has my TT at 895, I do it every 3 days. Was thinking 80 which should put me at 600 TT . But I think I like your approach better

112mg/week would be 16mg/day, I think it's definitely worth a try. There's a good chance in my experience and from reading about others' experiences that it'll make a difference.

 

[madman]

Ok cause I’m on 112 mg right now has my TT at 895, I do it every 3 days. Was thinking 80 which should put me at 600 TT . But I think I like your approach better

Look into giving it a go but keep in mind that although peak--->trough can play a big role when it comes to elevated hematocrit it is not a given that jumping on daily injections will work as running too high a FT level even when injecting daily can drive your levels up.

Most tend to lower their overall weekly dose and bring down FT.

Some men may get lucky and do better overall on dailies but there are many on such protocol still struggling with high hematocrit let alone other sides due to running too high an FT level.

Only time will tell.

You are hitting a high TT 895 ng/dL on your current protocol (112 mg T every 3 days) and if these are your true trough levels then your peak TT/FT is going to be higher.

Where does your trough FT sit and was it even tested using an accurate assay?

Although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

This is key:

*In most cases when using injectable T high supra-physiological peaks post-injection and overall T levels (running too high TT/FT level) will have a big impact on increasing HCT

*Manipulating injection frequency by injecting more frequently using lower doses of T resulting in minimizing the peak--->trough and maintaining more stable levels may lessen the impact on HCT but it is not a given

I am on week 5-6 anxiety comes and goes

Free test - 15.39 The Free T will be higher at trough 2x weekly.

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

Ok cause I’m on 112 mg right now has my TT at 895, I do it every 3 days. Was thinking 80 which should put me at 600 TT . But I think I like your approach better

TT 600 ng/dL your FT is high just over the top-end.

TT 855 ng/dL your FT is very high well over the top-end.

If these are true trough than your peak TT/FT will be even higher.

Switching to hcg mono?

Hey guys, I’ve been on trt for maybe 10 years now, and have been experimenting on dosing etc. I was on 100mg a week test plus 1000 hcg weekly and my TT was 600 and free T 165 (35-155 range). Then I bumped up the hcg cause my testicles were still smaller , I bumped up to 1700 weekly hcg, now my...

www.excelmale.com

Hey guys, I’ve been on trt for maybe 10 years now, and have been experimenting on dosing etc. I was on 100mg a week test plus 1000 hcg weekly and my TT was 600 and free T 165 (35-155 range). Then I bumped up the hcg cause my testicles were still smaller , I bumped up to 1700 weekly hcg, now my TT is 855 and my free T is 239 (35-155 range).

 

[Steve78]

TT 600 ng/dL your FT is high just over the top-end.

TT 855 ng/dL your FT is very high well over the top-end.

If these are true trough than your peak TT/FT will be even higher.

Switching to hcg mono?

Hey guys, I’ve been on trt for maybe 10 years now, and have been experimenting on dosing etc. I was on 100mg a week test plus 1000 hcg weekly and my TT was 600 and free T 165 (35-155 range). Then I bumped up the hcg cause my testicles were still smaller , I bumped up to 1700 weekly hcg, now my...

www.excelmale.com

Hey guys, I’ve been on trt for maybe 10 years now, and have been experimenting on dosing etc. I was on 100mg a week test plus 1000 hcg weekly and my TT was 600 and free T 165 (35-155 range). Then I bumped up the hcg cause my testicles were still smaller , I bumped up to 1700 weekly hcg, now my TT is 855 and my free T is 239 (35-155 range).

Exactly! I was trying to look up my FT but you beat me to it. So your rec, drop to 80 mg a week (24mg EOD) and see where my FT is?

 

[madman]

Exactly! I was trying to look up my FT but you beat me to it. So your rec, drop to 80 mg a week (24mg EOD) and see where my FT is?

Do what you feel is best for you.

Lowering your dose some if moving to a more frequent injection protocol would be a smart move.

 

[Vince]

Some very good advice already about lifting and working out, but I want to address what you mentioned in your OP about dropping your dosage because of issues with hematocrit and BP.

What's your injection frequency? In my personal experience, 80mg 2x/week (160mg/week total) raised my lifelong perfect BP to 160/80 and gave me 24/7 headaches even after waiting 3 months for things to really settle down.

Very quickly after moving to 22mg/day (154mg/week, basically same as 160mg/week), all those negative side effects went away and my hematocrit also came down.

I know @Vince also mentioned not having to donate blood anymore after moving to daily injections.

Maybe something worth trying if you're injecting infrequently. It could easily be the reason behind the negative side effects you're seeing

Here's a copy of my labs and protocol. I haven't had it to donate blood for over 8 years now. Daily injections doesn't work for everyone.

16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg twice weekly and no AI.

Pregnenolone 10 mg and 25 mg of DHEA.

My last injection before labs, about 28 hr.s.


Testosterone, Total, LC/MS, 1035.9 High ng/dL 264.0-916.0

Testosterone, Free 33.77 High ng/dL 5.00-21.00

% Free Testosterone 3.26% 1.50-4.20

DHEA-Sulfate01 499.0 High ug/dL 30.9-295.6 age adjust

Dihydrotestosterone 56 ng/dL

Estradiol, Sensitive 18.7 pg/mL 8.0-35.0

Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum. 41.2 nmol/L 19.3-76.4

Hemoglobin. 16.7 g/dL 13.0-17.7

Hematocrit 47.7 37.5-51.0

 

[Steve78]

Here's a copy of my labs and protocol. I haven't had it to donate blood for over 8 years now. Daily injections doesn't work for everyone.

16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg twice weekly and no AI.

Pregnenolone 10 mg and 25 mg of DHEA.

My last injection before labs, about 28 hr.s.


Testosterone, Total, LC/MS, 1035.9 High ng/dL 264.0-916.0

Testosterone, Free 33.77 High ng/dL 5.00-21.00

% Free Testosterone 3.26% 1.50-4.20

DHEA-Sulfate01 499.0 High ug/dL 30.9-295.6 age adjust

Dihydrotestosterone 56 ng/dL

Estradiol, Sensitive 18.7 pg/mL 8.0-35.0

Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum. 41.2 nmol/L 19.3-76.4

Hemoglobin. 16.7 g/dL 13.0-17.7

Hematocrit 47.7 37.5-51.0

Thanks

Do you think it’s healthy to have that high TT and FT over the years? I ask cause I feel better at those numbers but think it’s probably not the best for longevity…

 

[Jerajera]

Here's a copy of my labs and protocol. I haven't had it to donate blood for over 8 years now. Daily injections doesn't work for everyone.

16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg twice weekly and no AI.

Pregnenolone 10 mg and 25 mg of DHEA.

My last injection before labs, about 28 hr.s.


Testosterone, Total, LC/MS, 1035.9 High ng/dL 264.0-916.0

Testosterone, Free 33.77 High ng/dL 5.00-21.00

% Free Testosterone 3.26% 1.50-4.20

DHEA-Sulfate01 499.0 High ug/dL 30.9-295.6 age adjust

Dihydrotestosterone 56 ng/dL

Estradiol, Sensitive 18.7 pg/mL 8.0-35.0

Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum. 41.2 nmol/L 19.3-76.4

Hemoglobin. 16.7 g/dL 13.0-17.7

Hematocrit 47.7 37.5-51.0

Incredible that your E2 is so low despite Free T that high

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Thanks

Do you think it’s healthy to have that high TT and FT over the years? I ask cause I feel better at those numbers but think it’s probably not the best for longevity…

There are so many variables involved in longevity that it's hard to see slightly high T being an overriding issue, especially if it motivates you to do other health-promoting things like having a purpose in life and being active. Supplementing with glycine (just to pick one thing) is likely to be far more of a factor. As with anything involving many variables, fixating on one thing, especially one thing with little direct data is unlikely to lead to good decisions.