Blood Glucose and A1C show improvement, blood meter showing rise in blood sugar lately?

[dnfuss]

Found it:

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?9579-Blood-Sugar-Metformin-and-Berberine/page2

Berberine is not something to fool around with. It does seem to work to some degree, but it may do so by affecting your liver in potentially dangerous ways. See, e.g., http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.com/2013/08/berberine-works-but-may-very-well-be.html. It has not undergone the rigorous testing process to which all FDA-approved prescription drugs are subjected.

My history was very similar to yours. I was eating a very low-carb diet and exercising regularly, just as you are, and had similar fasting blood glucose, post-prandial glucose and HgbA1C numbers. I was never diagnosed with full-blown diabetes (those levels are higher than the ones I exhibited), but it was clear I was pre-diabetic. Pre-diabetes is not a benign condition. Pre-diabetics experience serious cardiovascular events (stroke and heart attacks) at significantly higher rates than those with normal blood sugars, and about one-third of pre-diabetics progress to full-blown diabetes. It became clear to me that diet and exercise alone weren't going to give me normal glucose levels.

I went on Metformin and it enabled me to achieve truly normal blood sugars. You may want to consider discussing this with a doctor with experience in the treatment of pre-diabetes and diabetes. You won't regret it. For further general information and discussions of treatment protocols for pre-diabetes and diabetes, see http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/ and Dr. Richard Bernstein's book, Diabetes Solution.

 

[CSI007]

I understand that too. I have contemplated metformin for a while now. The thing is just 10 years ago my values would be considered normal. Goal posts keeps getting moved. Is it really for health or is there another driving force?

I may give the metformin a go and see if it helps with some of my other issues as well (see my thread on my low T journey)

 

[dnfuss]

Did a quick test for you this morning to demonstrate the oddity that is my body. LOL

Woke up and tested a FBG of 114. Cooked breakfast and ate approx an hour later. Consisted of a home made Belgium waffle (the whole thing) with 4 tabs of butter and approx a 1/4 cup of standard table syrup and 2 sausage patties. One and half hours later my post meal BG was 114. :-/

Not so odd. Similar to what I previously exhibited. Pretty typical for someone with pre-diabetes, when second-phase insulin release is often still fairly robust. Wonder what your one-hour reading would have been without the butter and sausage? My guess would be 140-160.

 

[CSI007]

Do you feel better on the metformin with normal BG?

 

[dnfuss]

I understand that too. I have contemplated metformin for a while now. The thing is just 10 years ago my values would be considered normal. Goal posts keeps getting moved. Is it really for health or is there another driving force?

I may give the metformin a go and see if it helps with some of my other issues as well (see my thread on my low T journey)

If I have read your posts correctly (and I apologize if I have misconstrued them), your usual fasting glucose number on arising is above 110 (often well above) and your HgbA1c is at or near 6.0%. Those are not values exhibited by someone with normal blood sugars, but rather are consistent with pre-diabetes. The values suggested by the ADA in diagnosing diabetes and pre-diabetes have indeed changed over the past years, but are still much higher than these. This has to do with what the ADA thinks is realistic for diabetics to achieve and for doctors to treat rather than what is normal. As an example, the ADA's official view is that there is no effective treatment for pre-diabetes and therefore no need to "worry" doctors or patients until such numbers begin to approach what is actually diabetes. The ADA also is of the view that there is no value to low carbohydrate diets in the management of diabetes.

Metformin is a very good drug. I am on it and it has allowed me to achieve basically normal blood sugars. It is highly effective when used in conjunction with a low-carbohydrate diet. It generally will not normalize blood sugars in a prediabetic who continues to eat the Standard American Diet (well in excess of 100 grams of carbohydrate per day, often two or three times that amount).

 

[dnfuss]

Do you feel better on the metformin with normal BG?

I feel fine. But I also felt fine when my numbers were pre-diabetic. Most people with pre-diabetes generally don't "feel bad." Even those with full-blown diabetes often don't exhibit physical symptoms (neuropathy, kidney damage, heart attack, etc.) upon diagnosis. But after years of extremely high numbers they go on to develop those severe complications that are irreversible. And as I mentioned earlier, pre-diabetes comes with its own risks, including a direct correlation with significantly higher rates of cardiovascular events (stroke and heart attack) and approximately one-third of pre-diabetics going on to full-blown diabetes.

 

[Kettlebells]

I am not 100% sold on low-carb diets for all pre-diabetics and type 2 diabetics. I was a diagnosed pre-diabetic for eight years before being diagnosed as a full-blown diabetic. Everything I was told about managing blood sugar did not work for me. All I did was get sicker. I finally adopted a mostly plant-based (flexitarian) diet after listening to a program produced by Dr. Joel Fuhrman and reading one of his book entitled "The End of Diabetes: The Eat to Live Plan to Prevent and Reverse Diabetes." My endocrinologist thought that I was crazy when I told her that I was becoming flexitarian. She no longer thinks that it is a crazy way for a type 2 diabetic to eat. My hbA1C went from routinely being in the upper sixes to low sevens when I was a meat eater to being in the low to mid-fives when I switched to a primarily plant-based diet. I do not know a single meat eating full-blown type 2 diabetic who routinely achieves an hbA1C level in the low to mid-fives, not one. That is non-diabetic range. Not only did my blood glucose numbers improve, my entire blood chemistry improved. At one point, I used to run triglyceride levels in the 350 to 450 range. Now, I never go above 150, and I still eat pasta. The beauty of flexitarian eating is that is an order of magnitude easier for the average person to follow because nothing is excluded. The key factor here is shifting from a being mostly a meat eater to being mostly a plant eater. I lost 50lbs of fat and replaced it with 20lbs of muscle on this diet.

 

[dnfuss]

I am not 100% sold on low-carb diets for all pre-diabetics and type 2 diabetics. I was a diagnosed pre-diabetic for eight years before being diagnosed as a full-blown diabetic. Everything I was told about managing blood sugar did not work for me. All I did was get sicker. I finally adopted a mostly plant-based (flexitarian) diet after listening to a program produced by Dr. Joel Fuhrman and reading one of his book entitled "The End of Diabetes: The Eat to Live Plan to Prevent and Reverse Diabetes." My endocrinologist thought that I was crazy when I told her that I was becoming flexitarian. She no longer thinks that it is a crazy way for a type 2 diabetic to eat. My hbA1C went from routinely being in the upper sixes to low sevens when I was a meat eater to being in the low to mid-fives when I switched to a primarily plant-based diet. I do not know a single meat eating full-blown type 2 diabetic who routinely achieves an hbA1C level in the low to mid-fives, not one. That is non-diabetic range. Not only did my blood glucose numbers improve, my entire blood chemistry improved. At one point, I used to run triglyceride levels in the 350 to 450 range. Now, I never go above 150, and I still eat pasta. The beauty of flexitarian eating is that is an order of magnitude easier for the average person to follow because nothing is excluded. The key factor here is shifting from a being mostly a meat eater to being mostly a plant eater. I lost 50lbs of fat and replaced it with 20lbs of muscle on this diet.

Kettlebells, my experience has differed from yours. I am aware of a great number of type 2 diabetics who have achieved an HgbA1c of under 5.5% (often under 5.0%) while eating a diet containing meat. For them, reducing carbohydrates was key to their success.

Whatever the diet and/or medications involved, the important thing for pre-diabetics and diabetics is to achieve consistently normal blood sugars. I was able to do that on a low-carb diet and exercise plus metformin. Whenever I do ingest a significant carb load, especially simple sugars, which I do on special occasions such as birthdays, Christmas, etc. (hey, I’m only human), my post-prandial blood glucose directly reflects that.

I’m glad that your diet has been so effective for you, and I wish you only continued health and success with it. For me and many other pre-diabetics and diabetics, it does not work.

 

[Kettlebells]

I am to the point where I never recommend a low-carb diet to diabetics because the diet is far too restrictive for the average person to maintain. The human body was not designed to live as a pure carnivore. Diabetes is an inflammatory disease. Meat, dairy, and eggs are all sources of inflammation and so are refined starch, sugar, and artificial sweeteners. If a diabetic is able to get inflammation under control, he/she will get diabetes under control. I was a guy who ran an hbA1C over 10 and went into diabetic wasting at one point. My goal and the goal of every type 2 diabetic should be to remain non-insulin dependent because it is only a matter of time before death comes knocking on one's door. Treating insulin resistance with insulin results in even greater insulin resistance.

 

[Vince]

I am to the point where I never recommend a low-carb diet to diabetics because the diet is far too restrictive for the average person to maintain. The human body was not designed to live as a pure carnivore. Diabetes is an inflammatory disease. Meat, dairy, and eggs are all sources of inflammation and so are refined starch, sugar, and artificial sweeteners. If a diabetic is able to get inflammation under control, he/she will get diabetes under control. I was a guy who ran an hbA1C over 10 and went into diabetic wasting at one point. My goal and the goal of every type 2 diabetic should be to remain non-insulin dependent because it is only a matter of time before death comes knocking on one's door. Treating insulin resistance with insulin results in even greater insulin resistance.

I'm a big low-carb guy, the difference it made on my body and lipid panel I wouldn't have believed. Without living it and seeing the results and the difference it made in some of my friends life.

Vince's Latest Lipid Panel From 10/9/17​

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?12290-Vince-s-Latest-Lipid-Panel-From-10-9-17

What happens to the carbs?​

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?4276-What-happens-to-the-carbs

 

[dnfuss]

I am to the point where I never recommend a low-carb diet to diabetics because the diet is far too restrictive for the average person to maintain. The human body was not designed to live as a pure carnivore. Diabetes is an inflammatory disease. Meat, dairy, and eggs are all sources of inflammation and so are refined starch, sugar, and artificial sweeteners. If a diabetic is able to get inflammation under control, he/she will get diabetes under control. I was a guy who ran an hbA1C over 10 and went into diabetic wasting at one point. My goal and the goal of every type 2 diabetic should be to remain non-insulin dependent because it is only a matter of time before death comes knocking on one's door. Treating insulin resistance with insulin results in even greater insulin resistance.

Kettlebells, you are absolutely right that many people find it difficult to stay on a low-carbohydrate diets. But there are also many pre-diabetics and diabetics who find a way to adhere to low-carbohydrate regimens for decades. I am one of them (over 20 years now). Such a diet need not, indeed should not, consist only of processed meat and dairy products. High-quality animal protein (fish and seafood, pastured meat, real cheeses) and low-carbohydrate vegetables are both allowed and highly desirable.

I’m not quite sure what the statements regarding inflammation refer to, not having seen studies supporting this. As I stated previously, if your diet works for you and others to control blood sugar, more power to you and them. It does not do so for me and for many other pre-diabetics and diabetics.

Diabetes is indeed an insidious disease, and my heart goes out to you for the loss of your loved ones who succumbed to its complications. I, too, have the disease on both sides of my family, and lost my poor father to it more than 15 years ago now. But I strongly disagree with the notion that treating diabetes with insulin when clinically indicated results in a worsening of blood sugar control leading inevitably to death, and am unaware of any studies supporting that hypothesis. If you have access to such, please share the citations. Virtually all Type 1 diabetics and a great many Type 2 diabetics who use exogenous insulin would now be dead if it did not exist. It is crucial to their maintenance of continuously normal blood sugars, which is the key to preventing severe diabetic complications.

 

[CSI007]

Sorry to hijack this thread again, but I decided to give metformin a try. 500mg once per day. I will report on any benefits I see in my Journey thread.

Is there a generic or metformin?

 

[dnfuss]

Sorry to hijack this thread again, but I decided to give metformin a try. 500mg once per day. I will report on any benefits I see in my Journey thread.

Is there a generic or metformin?

Metformin is the generic drug. The branded drug is Glucophage. The branded drug is very costly to self-pay, and most health insurance plans will not cover it except in very unusual circumstances. Some patients find the branded drug to be more effective than the generic. I have used both and did not see a tremendous difference in effectiveness between the two.

Unless your doctor has a specific reason to use the standard quick-release version, most patients report better success with the extended-release version of Metformin (usually referred to as Metformin XR or Metformin ER). In particular, it tends to cause less gastric distress, especially diarrhea, the most common side effect along with upset stomach and flatulence.

The typical protocol suggested by most doctors is to titrate the dose up gradually. The usual initial dose is 500 mg a day. This is then increased no faster than 500 mg. a week until a therapeutic dose is reached (i.e., one which lowers blood sugars in some significant amount).

Most adult males will not see any significant effects from Metformin until the dose reaches 1500 mg. a day. Some effect is usually seen after three days or so at a therapeutic level, with the full effect of a given dosage generally reached after three weeks. The current maximum recommended dose is 2000 mg. a day for the extended-release version, 2250 mg. a day for the quick-release version.

I had elevated fasting blood sugars upon awakening, and so I was prescribed the extended-release version to be taken in the evening because it reaches its highest blood concentration in between four and eight hours. Some patients prefer to take evening Metformin with dinner, I prefer to take mine at bedtime. I started with 500 mg. of the extended-release version each night. I began to see a noticeable drop in morning fasting blood sugars once I got to 1500 mg. each night, but an even more significant effect at 2000 mg., which is where I have remained.

Metformin is a good drug with a good track record. Perhaps its most serious noted side effect is lactic acidosis, although that is probably of greatest concern to those with compromised kidney function. Metformin has occasionally been linked in the literature to a decrease in serum Vitamin B-12, so one might want to have that tested when starting Metformin to have a baseline for future tests to be compared against (and perhaps take a low-dose B-complex vitamin or multivitamin with Bs if you don’t already; high doses of B-12 probably aren’t necessary).

Metformin is most effective when combined with a low-carbohydrate diet. It usually will not bring blood sugars down to anything like truly normal levels if carbohydrates remain unrestricted.

You should consult your doctor before taking any medication, including Metformin.

 

[CSI007]

Thanks for the info. I just took my first 500mg Metformin. It's not a generic. It's not slow release either I would suspect it's just "metformin" lol. We'll see how things go from here.

For more info:

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...low-testosterone&p=92743&viewfull=1#post92743

 

[CSI007]

I like to research lots of stuff. This scares me about the metformin: "dyspepsia caused by metformin" Seems like it can happen rather quickly and in some cases not fixable. Will have to watch out for any side effects.

 

[dnfuss]

Thanks for the info. I just took my first 500mg Metformin. It's not a generic. It's not slow release either I would suspect it's just "metformin" lol. We'll see how things go from here.

For more info:

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...low-testosterone&p=92743&viewfull=1#post92743

I took a quick look at your linked post and it seemed to indicate that you have nephropathy. As I noted, one of the few possible serious side effects of Metformin is lactic acidosis, which could be especially serious, perhaps even fatal, in someone with impaired kidney function. I’m certain your doctor will be carefully monitoring your kidney function regularly as you start taking metformin.

 

[CSI007]

I took a quick look at your linked post and it seemed to indicate that you have nephropathy. As I noted, one of the few possible serious side effects of Metformin is lactic acidosis, which could be especially serious, perhaps even fatal, in someone with impaired kidney function. I'm certain your doctor will be carefully monitoring your kidney function regularly as you start taking metformin.

I have no kidney dysfunction. Neuropathy is from chemotherapy 20 years ago. i.e. Nerve damage.

 

[dnfuss]

I like to research lots of stuff. This scares me about the metformin: "dyspepsia caused by metformin" Seems like it can happen rather quickly and in some cases not fixable. Will have to watch out for any side effects.

Dyspepsia is upset stomach. If you reduce dosage/stop metformin it goes away.

 

[Systemlord]

I couldn't continue taking metformin, it caused a terrible persistent cough and changed my voice. When I tried to come off it was pure hell.

 

[CSI007]

I couldn't continue taking metformin, it caused a terrible persistent cough and changed my voice. When I tried to come off it was pure hell.

How so? What was terrible about coming off of it?