After many years I think I've figured my situation out

[sh1973]

No one has been lead to believe that that free t is what matters.....study the literature....it is well known that free t is important.

Free t is the active fraction and responsible for effects on the AR (androgen receptor).

If you feel you do well with levels in the lower range so be it.....and if because you have lowered your testosterone dose so much it was a dismal 6 than there is no point in wasting your time with trt as you are shutting down your hpta for nothing!

Very rare someone can experience any benefit from trt using a dose of 60mg/week or LESS as for the majority that dose of testosterone would do nothing to raise levels into the mid-normal to high-normal physiological range let alone relieve/improve symptoms of low t.

80-100mg/week is the common starting dose and even than 80mg would be too low for many.

Sure there are a small percentage of men who can maybe get away with 60mg/week but that is very rare to say the least!

First of all this is absolute untruth. Dr Gordon, one of the biggest names in TRT has many patients doing well within the 50-60mg range and an occasional 80mg per week. This post is what I’ve found that works for me and isn’t meant to diagnose any other members.

 

[sh1973]

The fact of the matter is there’s only a slim percentage of males that have ever at any point in their lives had total t levels north of a thousand and 40-80 year old men sure as hell don’t need them. The average male in prime only makes 4-7mg per day which is 56mg max which would be close to a 70mg cypionate dose by the time the Ester is out of the equation. All I’m trying to do is help someone not make the mistakes I made for 8 years.

 

[S1W]

sh1973,

Just chiming in to say that I'm really psyched for you. I've read your posts over the past year or so and am happy to see that things are going well for you. After 8+ years of trying, you sure as sh!t have paid your dues.

 

[sh1973]

sh1973,

Just chiming in to say that I'm really psyched for you. I've read your posts over the past year or so and am happy to see that things are going well for you. After 8+ years of trying, you sure as sh!t have paid your dues.

Thanks I appreciate that. I have indeed went through hell at times with this and have been poked as much as a pin cushion in the process.

 

[Vince Carter]

I think you're leaving out SHBG here...a low SHBG guy could very well do great on significantly less Cyp per dose because of it, because of the Free T that is present. I think here we're only really able to talk about low SHBG and running much lower Totals...that thing that we've all been led to believe is the important factor; TT. I like seeing the thought process shifting such as it is here.

 

[WrenchHead80]

Sh1973

Curious how active you are? Do you exercise or go to the gym? Also are you in your 40's (guessing based on 1973). Asking cause I find all this interesting.

 

[sh1973]

Sh1973

Curious how active you are? Do you exercise or go to the gym? Also are you in your 40's (guessing based on 1973). Asking cause I find all this interesting.

Very active, mostly cardio, walking and a bow flex for resistance training. Not really trying to build muscle. Pretty thin weight is 175 and 5’9” tall and yes I am 44y/o. No other health issues whatsoever. I drink occasionally and have never smoked

 

[WrenchHead80]

Very active, mostly cardio, walking and a bow flex for resistance training. Not really trying to build muscle. Pretty thin weight is 175 and 5'9” tall and yes I am 44y/o. No other health issues whatsoever. I drink occasionally and have never smoked

Thanks for the reply. Glad your feeling great, hope it continues for you.

 

[Systemlord]

I don't think it is as rare as we all believe based on what we read on the forums. It seems that most guys on the forums are very/mostly interested in the anabolic effects of higher levels and that distorts what is considered an "effective" dose.

From Dr. Gordon's writing it seems 60mg is about the average dose that is necessary to achieve good results in his treatment of PTSD cases.

Remember men with high normal testosterone are 30% less likely to suffer from cardiac events than those in the midrange ranges, those below midrange ranges are at a bigger risk.

 

[madman]

First of all this is absolute untruth. Dr Gordon, one of the biggest names in TRT has many patients doing well within the 50-60mg range and an occasional 80mg per week. This post is what I've found that works for me and isn't meant to diagnose any other members.

Yes within the circle of patients he is treating.....and this use of such low doses does not apply to every man.

If 60-80mg/week is all anyone needed to experience relief/improvements from low t symptoms than no one would be doing 100-150mg/week which is much more common.

I understand that this is working for you and that is great as I have stated many times that using the lowest possible dose to experience relief/improvement of low testosterone would be the most sensible approach to minimize possible side effects and keep overall blood markers in a healthy range.

Intra-individual variability plays a big role regarding the effects of testosterone on ones system- sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor), shbg levels, polymorphism of the AR and CAG repeat length (short/long), body chemistry/genetics.

Some men may do well on 60-80 mg/week but I would still say a majority of men use /need 100-140mg/week.

 

[Gman86]

You’re most likely right Madman, numbers wise most guys will without a doubt do better with at least 100mg/ week. I’d say we really don’t know if men on TRT would feel subjectively better on a lower dose due to most guys never trying a dose below 100mg/ week. We all pretty much start at 100mg and rarely do men try and go lower.

I think we would have to have more people trying lower dose and reporting their experience to say if it can subjectively work for a decent amount of guys or not. But like you said, at the end of the day everyone is extremely different and we all kind of have to figure out what works for us as individuals unfortunately.

 

[madman]

You're most likely right Madman, numbers wise most guys will without a doubt do better with at least 100mg/ week. I'd say we really don't know if men on TRT would feel subjectively better on a lower dose due to most guys never trying a dose below 100mg/ week. We all pretty much start at 100mg and rarely do men try and go lower.

I think we would have to have more people trying lower dose and reporting their experience to say if it can subjectively work for a decent amount of guys or not. But like you said, at the end of the day everyone is extremely different and we all kind of have to figure out what works for us as individuals unfortunately.

We also see many men posting lab work using a starting dose of 100mg/week and only reaching mid-normal levels and feel great where as many others need to attain high/normal levels to experience improvements of low t symptoms hence needing a dose increase anywhere from 120-150mg/week.

I had low/normal total t (low 300s) and really low free t 225 pmol/L (range 196-636) along with mid-normal shbg pre-trt and I started on 100mg/week.....my total t at trough was a dismal 480 ng/dl along with free t still low.

I was one who needed a higher dose thats just me though!

 

[WrenchHead80]

To back up what Madman is saying I started TRT at 90mg of test C a week. That took my pre low trt levels and crashed them even harder.

pre trt
TT 281 (249-836)
FT 55.68 (35-92.6) I'm low shbg hence better FT #'s

Starting trt @ 90mg a week (7 week labs later)
TT 147 (249-836)
FT 6.23 (4.25-30.37)
Estradiol was crashed also at <5 (that was with no AI)

90mg a week destroyed me. I thought I had problems before, I felt even worse.

Edit to add: As I mentioned I'm low shbg too. So I "should" have been able to do more with less. It obviously didn't work out that way for me.

 

[sh1973]

You’re totally right wrench head, everyone is different but I think many men that are struggling with high numbers could do better going much lower. I have sky high shbg in the 70s but feel fantastic at 60mg per week, which in theory should not be happening. I will say that I firmly believe no man needs t levels over 1200ng to be normal and if so there’s something else really wrong in conjunction with low t.

 

[WrenchHead80]

You're totally right wrench head, everyone is different but I think many men that are struggling with high numbers could do better going much lower. I have sky high shbg in the 70s but feel fantastic at 60mg per week, which in theory should not be happening. I will say that I firmly believe no man needs t levels over 1200ng to be normal and if so there's something else really wrong in conjunction with low t.

I feel your right also that most men feel more is better. I was one of them till Madman and others continued to knock sense into me. I'm still not knocking people who choose to be on a higher dose though as long as they feel good and vitals are all good. This thread just proves some people respond differently to the norm.

 

[Vince Carter]

Starting trt @ 90mg a week (7 week labs later)
TT 147 (249-836)
FT 6.23 (4.25-30.37)
Estradiol was crashed also at <5 (that was with no AI)

90mg a week destroyed me. I thought I had problems before, I felt even worse.

Edit to add: As I mentioned I'm low shbg too. So I "should" have been able to do more with less. It obviously didn't work out that way for me.

How were you injecting...frequency and dose per injection?????

 

[WrenchHead80]

How were you injecting...frequency and dose per injection?????

The 90mg a week protocol was at the first clinic i went to. Id go to them every Tuesday for my 90mg shot in my butt. That was it, no AI or HCG.

 

[sh1973]

Got my lab results today.

TSH-2.150 range .450-4.500
Free T4-6.8ug/dl range 4.5-12
T3 uptake ratio-26% range 24-39
Free thyroxine index-1.8 range 1.2-4.9
T3 total-84ng/dl range 71.180
Total t-546nd/ free t 10.5pg/ml range 6.6-21.5
Estradiol- 19.6pg/ml range 7.6-42.6
Still waiting on dhea results.
This is at 60mg per week cypionate, been at current dose for 4 weeks and was on 68mg for three weeks prior to this. Still feel great at such a low dose. I think I’ve finally figured it out.

 

[Vince Carter]

The 90mg a week protocol was at the first clinic i went to. Id go to them every Tuesday for my 90mg shot in my butt. That was it, no AI or HCG.

As I suspected from your post a few spots up you (they) treated you all wrong so don't discount a low dose. Being low SHBG they treated with 1 90mg shot and that's just cruel to do to a low SHBG guy. I think if you tried that dose again but split it in to a daily shot you could make that work.

 

[Vince Carter]

Got my lab results today.

TSH-2.150 range .450-4.500
Free T4-6.8ug/dl range 4.5-12
T3 uptake ratio-26% range 24-39
Free thyroxine index-1.8 range 1.2-4.9
T3 total-84ng/dl range 71.180
Total t-546nd/ free t 10.5pg/ml range 6.6-21.5
Estradiol- 19.6pg/ml range 7.6-42.6
Still waiting on dhea results.
This is at 60mg per week cypionate, been at current dose for 4 weeks and was on 68mg for three weeks prior to this. Still feel great at such a low dose. I think I've finally figured it out.

Very interesting I saw the FT and then you answered my question. Good deal this is encouraging. I dropped to 12mg/D a few days back.