After 2 years on TRT (Nebido & Testosterone cream) maybe thinking on going back to Clomid

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Bolex

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Around 3 years ago I was diagnosed with type 2 hypogonadism probably because of my experimentation with AAS for muscle building purposes...

However, I want to say that even prior to doing any AAS my Total testosterone numbers were already on the low end of normal 270 / 300 but my doctor at the time said they were "normal numbers" within range ( I was 35 years old at the time)



Well started to messed around with SARMS (ostarine) to try and build some muscle, then later a pro-hormone (Epiandro, 4andro and later halodrol) and after that some mild testosterone and anavar cycle (all this was during a 3 year phase were I would do two 8 weeks cycles per year winter/summer.

No need to say that I felt great on those compounds, as I seem to be a very good responder to androgens. I get the aggression I need to go to the gym and train hard, I recover well, I get good gains in strength and muscle mass even on moderate dosages of those compounds listed above.

After my last cycle I did my usual PCT protocol that was a staple between cycles with (Nolvadex , Clomid and a Testosterone booster with all the vitamins and fertility herbs supposed to help with libido and test production...) however this time I did not recover well testosterone was 170 and LH 1 still six months after PCT.

Went to see an endocrinologist and after some blood work he did put me on clomid 50mg day for about 4 months and after a couple of weeks I started to feel much better and most of the low T symptoms started to fade away. after some blood work, my Total-T was 660 and free-T around 9, LH 7.0

I then lowered the clomid dose to 25mg/day for a couple of month and numbers came slightly lower but not much Total-T 571 and Free-T 7,8 LH 6.4

we then decided to try and stop the clomind gradually and I lowered the dose to 12,5 for a couple of months and then to 12,5 every other day for an extra month.

Started to feel a lot worse and numbers came in like this: Total-T 292, Free-T 4,86 and LH - 2.2



This in when I asked him to go on testosterone injections, and he pushed me to go with Nebido standard protocol (loading shot first 6 weeks after that one shot every 12 weeks )

Felt great at first, the first 6 weeks were great... did the reinforcement shot and everything was great until you hit week 8 more or less. you can really tell the difference between week 7-8 until the 12th week when you finally get your reinforcement shot again. Mostly I feel tired those last 4 weeks, although numbers are not bad. I've done this protocol for over a year, so I know.

After dialed in, the numbers for me look like this 10 days after The shot:

Total-T 1222

Free-T 33

SHBG 28

E2 62



7,5 weeks later, my numbers were like this:

Total-T 610

Free - T 11,21

SHBG 32

E2 53



After this, I decided to try out compounded testosterone cream(I've been on it for 4 month). I use two creams, one 40mg/ml with Anastrozole in the morning and a second cream 30mg/ml without AI for the evening. I do one pump in the morning and one pump at night.

At first, it gave me lots of anxiety, but it slowly went away. I feel more or less ok on the cream ( I think it's great for libido ) and I feel more aggression at the gym which I like, however I fell like it gives energy in short-lived spikes. You wake up sleepy and drowsy you take your bath put the cream things get better you go to the gym train hard and it's ok then in the middle afternoon you get an energy crash until you put more cream later that day and this is like this every single day. Oh and sometimes when you get home late for some reason or you fall a sleep early or something you end up skipping the night cream.

This is why I am considering leaving the cream, and I am thinking to go back to injections or even Clomid monotherapy because to tell you the truth it was maybe the protocol I felt more stable without so many ups and downs. Something to think about until my next apointment with the endo...

Please leave your thoughts and personal experiences below they are welcome and can help me see a bigger picture maybe I'm missing something, but I don't feel very stable and comfortable with this protocol at the moment...
 
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You wake up sleepy and drowsy you take your bath put the cream things get better you go to the gym train hard and it's ok then in the middle afternoon you get an energy crash until you put more cream later that day and this is like this every single day.
I had the same problem on the cream but only felt good for 3 hours and then a massive crash.

You need a better treatment protocol for your nebido, move injections closer together so you don't feel bad towards the end.

If your doctor's not willing to do that then find another one.
 
I had the same problem on the cream but only felt good for 3 hours and then a massive crash.

You need a better treatment protocol for your nebido, move injections closer together so you don't feel bad towards the end.

If your doctor's not willing to do that then find another one.
Yes its either clomid again, nebido closer together 8 -10 weeks max or, a split nebido protocol I think some people had success with this approach too. I actually think I would like to try to split nebido ( weekly or every two weeks ) it sounds good to me and I think it should make values very stable once dialed in.
I tried to get my last endocrinologist to let me do weekly enanthate injections but he could not understand it,he said it would be a waste of product because we only have 250mg ampules and that the medicine (Testoviron) is not to be prescribed that way...
But Nebido here comes in 4ml vials not ampules. He wants me to use it all at once but as I don`t inject it at the doctors office I can easily split it without causing a discussion about it. Not that I like to do that but it seems difficult to find someone to prescribe you testosterone injections in Portugal and the TRT or Anti-aging clinics just want to prescribe creams as I think they have an arrangement with the pharmacies that manipulate the creams and take profit out of it. Unfortunately this is a business as everything else and a very lucrative one...
 
As crazy as it sounds and is completely unnecessary, a member reported good results right here on this forum injecting 20 mg Nebido daily.

Can you not transfer the Test to a sterile vial and inject as you desire?

I tried to get my last endocrinologist to let me do weekly enanthate injections but he could not understand it
None of this surprises me, sadly you don't have to have critical thought and analytical thinking to practice medicine.
 
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As crazy as it sounds and is completely unnecessary, a member reported good results right here on this forum injecting 20 mg Nebido daily.

Can you not transfer the Test to a sterile vial and inject as you desire?
yes, I could transfer the testoviron yes, but he wanted to put me on 250mg testoviron every 4 weeks, if I divide that it is 62,5mg a week and with Nebido I get 1000mg every 12 weeks that makes 83,3 a week
 
I just wonder if anyone here on this forum actually felt "better" or more stable on clomid than on testosterone?

I thought some people responded well to clomid and actually like it better than test...

Plus, not having to inject more than once weekly is less hassle, just take a pill every day and you're done.

I also think It's less of a problem for those with BPH and male pattern baldness

Not sure about long term safety of it, but there are studies up to three years with little to no issues that I can remember.

Strange no-one actually came in favor of it in this post...?
 
I just wonder if anyone here on this forum actually felt "better" or more stable on clomid than on testosterone?

I thought some people responded well to clomid and actually like it better than test...
Many are in slightly different situations and respond differently as well. I don't take T and am on 50mg enclomiphene 4xwk and HCG 1000iu per wk. But I started out at 571 TT [264-916 ng/dL] and 14.4 FT [6.6-18.1 pg/dL]. After 8wks of 25mg clomid 4xwk and 1000iu HCG wk, I was at 751TT, 13.5FT and 21.2 Estradoil [7.6-42.6pg/mL]. In the morning I'll take my new labs. My main concern is the new restrictions on enclomiphene. I like enclomiphene over clomid as I'm calmer and more even-keeled. I'm also unsure about the safety of long-term therapy [forever] with clomid.
 
So I went to my endocrinologist yesterday. wanted to discuss what to do next, after trying out testosterone cream in a local TRT clinic and realizing it is not for me. Fun at the start but easy to forget and miss the night application and I don´t like having to put on cream twice every day.
Well, actually my numbers didn`t came out very good on it either. I was expecting it because I feel off, with most of the symptoms I had before starting TRT (previously before the cream with Nebido).

-Extreme fatigue and low energy levels
-Irritability and mood swings
-Feeling depressed
-Lower libido
-Fogy mind
-Bad quality sleep, wake up 3 - 4 times a night and wake up early

Bloods came out like this on the cream:

Hemoglobin 17.6 (reference range max 16.6)
Hematocrit 50.0 (reference range max 48.6)

Cholesterol total - 181 (reference max <200)
HDL - 76 (reference >60)
LDL - 96 (reference <130)
Triglycerides - 44 (reference <150)

TGO - 40 (reference <34)
TGP - 46 (reference <49)
GGT - 15 (reference <73)

Free T4 - 1.13 ( reference 0.70 - 1.58)

E2- 36.7 (reference 0 - 40)
SHBG - 17.7 (reference 10 - 57)

Total T - 296.5 (reference 72 - 853)
Free T- 9.41 (reference 4.8 - 22.4

DHT - 598 (reference 175 - 913)
DHEA - 208 (reference 80 -560)

IGF-1 180 ( reference 43-209)
Homocysteine - 14.7 (reference 4.0 - 15.2)

I asked him about stopping everything and going back to clomid for a few months and then try to tapper out and see if I could produce enough endogenous T, but he thinks we already tried that and chances are small that I´ll be happy with those numbers as a former recreational AAS user...

So Im either back with nebido every 12 weeks and adjust from there ( the minimum interval he prescribes is 10 weeks)
Other choice would be testoviron 250ml every 3 to 4 weeks ( 3 weeks is the minimum interval he prescribes )

My numbers were quite stable with Nebido before actually, so I told him I would prefer that route.

what is bothering me here is that this time, he does not want me to front load nebido with that shorter interval fist injection (usually 6 weeks) and every 10-12 weeks after that.
He wants me to go strait to 12 weeks interval and, as I come from 4 month compound T-cream the nebido will probably take a lot more to build up in my system and I will feel like crap probably for a few months.

I actually asked him if we were going to do the standard protocol of the 6 weeks first shot interval as I was on cream for 4 month and he said "NO I think there is no need for that there is still test on your body..."

Not sure he did this because he is a "not so capable" doctor, because he is careful with dosages or because he sees me all jacked up all the time as I go to the gym 4 to 5 days a week for over 7 years now and he thinks I´m on AAS or what??

Other thing that comes to mind is that he did this because of my latest hematocrit levels that are high! Not front loading would give my body time to adjust and possibly lower and level out my hematocrit in range with "normal" levels but he didn`t say it directly to me...
 
I asked him about stopping everything and going back to clomid for a few months and then try to tapper out and see if I could produce enough endogenous T, but he thinks we already tried that and chances are small
Your doctor is right. Your past comment about feeling off on nebido is a reason to seek treatment from someone offering a shorter half-life.

I think Balance My Hormones in (UK/Dorset) treats patients remotely in the european countries using cypionate and ethanate. On these two esters, you should reach a steady state in 4-6 weeks and dosed 1-2x weekly.
 
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Your doctor is right. Your past comment about feeling off on nebido is a reason to seek treatment from someone offering a shorter half-life.

I think Balance My Hormones in (UK/Dorset) treats patients remotely in the european countries using cypionate and ethanate. On these two esters, you should reach a steady state in 4-6 weeks and dosed 1-2x weekly.
That could be a possibility, but I don't know if that is still possible after the Brexit
Don't know if they can prescribe or deliver testosterone medication to Portugal but I may ask them if necessary.

What I can do for now, is to split nebido as I don't take the shots at the doctor's office.
But I would have to divide 1000mg of nebido for 12 weeks and that would be 83,3mg a week for now. Could try that and try to convince the endo to shorten the interval to 10 weeks if bloods look better in 12 weeks from now.
Do you think this could work? I would prefer to have a once a week shot with nebidos long ester than 3 times a week or everyday with shorter esters.
 
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