6 weeks clean & sober! Stopped TRT.

[BigBamBoo]

You were having frequent sex and good sex and you you still went on testosterone !!! Why would you do that !!!!!!!!!!
Glad to see you are off.

I understand that many guys seek out TRT for sexual issues. And from reading many post here and on other forums...many find no relief or benefits from TRT but still continue with it anyways. Including some who have posted on this thread.

So I guess the question could be asked that about many folks on TRT.

You can add me to the list of the folks seeking "the magic pill" to cure all my woes when I started TRT.
I did not think TRT would give me bad sexual symptoms. I was hoping it would help "pick me up" and give me quality of life.

 

[BigBamBoo]

I am curious. You had a total testosterone in the normal range and were prescribed an expensive treatment for men with low testosterone which you did not have under the pretense of treating a low free testosterone which is bull because they did not know what your free testosterone was in your prime. You experienced significant side effects with no benefit. You paid thousands of dollars for the right to do so. You underwent countless needle sticks and lab tests. Once you got off the expensive therapy you felt great.

It sounds to me like you just got ripped off by an unscrupulous clinic and are now several thousand dollars lighter in the wallet for no benefit whatsoever, and yet you say someday you will go back to the same clinic? Very confusing.

A lot of low T "symptoms" could also be explained away by such things as a bout with depression, struggling with a long term low grade infection, any number of things really. I find the fact that this clinic would put you on an expensive therapy you didn't need to be worthy of alarm. It seems to me we should treat this as a cautionary tale and warn people so other men don't make the same mistake.

How many people undergo treatment for cancer and not survive? Would you say they wasted their money by not trying to bring back quality of life?

As for the clinics....please show me ONE that is not there to make money. And please point me to a "better" one or the one YOU are using.

I get what you are saying. But MANY here on this forum and other forums will tell you TT means very little and it is FT that is important.
And that the standard TT test are not valid and should not be used to measure total T.

I started TRT to try and bring up quality of life for myself. It did not work. I do not feel I was ripped off. Heck...I have hobbies that cost me TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars a year.
I am a competitive shooter and last month spent $12,000 on a new race pistol and reloading press to feed it.
Most folks say that is a waste of money.

But...it brings happiness to me and I do not plan on dying a rich man. I plan on going out the way I came in...naked and screaming!

 

[S1W]

I switched from every 3.5 days injections to EOD, my E2 dropped down in the 30's....yep...don't ya know. Guys with high SHBG are only supposed to take one or two big doses a week!?!? More frequent injections are not supposed to work.

When you switched from E3.5D to EOD, did you maintain your weekly dose? Also, did switching to EOD have any effect on HCT and would you say that subjectively you felt better injecting more frequently?

 

[madman]

I am curious. You had a total testosterone in the normal range and were prescribed an expensive treatment for men with low testosterone which you did not have under the pretense of treating a low free testosterone which is bull because they did not know what your free testosterone was in your prime. You experienced significant side effects with no benefit. You paid thousands of dollars for the right to do so. You underwent countless needle sticks and lab tests. Once you got off the expensive therapy you felt great.

It sounds to me like you just got ripped off by an unscrupulous clinic and are now several thousand dollars lighter in the wallet for no benefit whatsoever, and yet you say someday you will go back to the same clinic? Very confusing.

A lot of low T "symptoms" could also be explained away by such things as a bout with depression, struggling with a long term low grade infection, any number of things really. I find the fact that this clinic would put you on an expensive therapy you didn't need to be worthy of alarm. It seems to me we should treat this as a cautionary tale and warn people so other men don't make the same mistake.

Who seeked out who?

Did Defy twist his arm to start trt?

You need to pick your words wisely before you go around bashing a very reputable clinic
run by doctors who are well versed in trt compared to the cesspool of t-mills out there.

Defy has helped thousands of men improve their quality of life let alone provide top notch treatment.

I would say anyone being treated by Dr. Saya or his clinics staff are receiving quality care!

 

[BigBamBoo]

When you switched from E3.5D to EOD, did you maintain your weekly dose? Also, did switching to EOD have any effect on HCT and would you say that subjectively you felt better injecting more frequently?

Hello.
No, I lowered my dose a bit as I went to more frequent injections.

Yes, I did feel “better” on the more frequent doses...less ups and downs but I owe that to the lowering of E2.

My HCT has always stayed around 45-48, and my last blood draw I believe it was 46 and that was at the M-W-F protocol before switching to EOD.

 

[stx359]

Who seeked out who?

Did Defy twist his arm to start trt?

You need to pick your words wisely before you go around bashing a very reputable clinic
run by doctors who are well versed in trt compared to the cesspool of t-mills out there.

Defy has helped thousands of men improve their quality of life let alone provide top notch treatment.

I would say anyone being treated by Dr. Saya or his clinics staff are receiving quality care!

My intention wasn't to initiate an internet argument on here so I cringe when I read a statement that begins with "you need to" and ends with the obligatory exclamation point for emphasis. I was merely reading the thread and reiterating the facts that the man reported. His testosterone was perfectly normal for his age. He initiated a therapy he probably did not need. He felt awful. He discontinued the therapy and feels great now because his body produces an adequate amount of testosterone on its own. I didn't bash anyone by name and the only opinion in the thread was the choice of the word unscrupulous.

You are correct. I should not have used that adjective as there may be some diagnostic information that we do not know. However if you polled ten endocrinologists on what they would do with a middle aged man with a perfectly normal testosterone who was feeling "blah" I doubt any of them would choose to prescribe TRT. Let us not pretend that there isn't any financial incentive for these clinics. They are businesses not benevolent organizations. Even the folks that operate this particular clinic would probably admit that this wasn't their proudest moment.

Again not intended to initiate an internet brawl so I apologize if you took offense.

 

[S1W]

Hello.
No, I lowered my dose a bit as I went to more frequent injections.

Yes, I did feel “better” on the more frequent doses...less ups and downs but I owe that to the lowering of E2.

My HCT has always stayed around 45-48, and my last blood draw I believe it was 46 and that was at the M-W-F protocol before switching to EOD.

BigBamBoo,

Thanks for the reply! Your reply raises a few more questions if you dont mind:

- Did your labs show a difference in E2 between your MWF protocol and EOD?
- Would you say that you felt better on EOD compared to MWF?
- Was your weekly dose the same on MWF and EOD?
- When injecting MWF, were you particular about time of injection or did you just do them all in the morning, etc?

Thanks man!

 

[stx359]

How many people undergo treatment for cancer and not survive? Would you say they wasted their money by not trying to bring back quality of life?

As for the clinics....please show me ONE that is not there to make money. And please point me to a "better" one or the one YOU are using.

I get what you are saying. But MANY here on this forum and other forums will tell you TT means very little and it is FT that is important.
And that the standard TT test are not valid and should not be used to measure total T.

I started TRT to try and bring up quality of life for myself. It did not work. I do not feel I was ripped off. Heck...I have hobbies that cost me TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars a year.
I am a competitive shooter and last month spent $12,000 on a new race pistol and reloading press to feed it.
Most folks say that is a waste of money.

But...it brings happiness to me and I do not plan on dying a rich man. I plan on going out the way I came in...naked and screaming!

Apologies for not responding to you sooner. I am not always a frequent flyer on here.

You lost me on your cancer argument. Cancer patients undergo chemotherapy after they have received a definitive diagnosis and they do so to save their life. You never received a definitive diagnosis for anything. Granted one can argue that the diagnostic threshold for low T is far too low at 350 but no doctor would ever diagnose you with low T with a total in the 600's free T notwithstanding. To use your analogy your case would be tantamount to being prescribed chemotherapy when you have not been diagnosed with cancer.

As for clinics I am not here to advocate for any one clinic so I won't answer your question on that. Yes every clinic is there to make money but legitimate medical doctors tend to choose a reimbursement model that involves billing you for services rendered, not signing you up for a 12 month contract that includes an up front fee for your initial visit and hundreds a month. The only thing I would advocate is that people who think they might be candidates for TRT research reputable endocrinologists in their community, undergo a medical workup and get the best advice they can from someone who is not trying to sign them up to a "plan." They can always move to a testosterone mill for their next step if they are unhappy with the result they will just be better informed. I am only speaking as someone who has been down the testosterone mill route. Trust me I am no expert I have been victimized as many have.

Finally your "No worries I have gobs of money argument" applies to very few. Even those of us who make a handsome living owe our wealth to the fact that we do not part with several thousand dollars lightly. I am happy for you and your financial state and believe that your hobby is a very good reason to spend money. If you have no issue with paying a a clinic several thousand dollars for no reason that is your right. Most would disagree. My original post wasn't really for you. You are obviously a very happy customer and I will not change your mind. The post was for all the guys on here who are debating TRT and don't know what to do - a position we were all in at one time. I think your case is very informative to them. I know I found it interesting.

 

[S1W]

stx359,

Not taking sides here - but it did seem as if you came out swinging against Defy which may explain some of the responses you got. Defy is definitely not a T mill.

However, the basis of your argument seemed to be rooted in the assertion that since BBB had a TT of 600, he should have never tried TRT. However, note that BBB also stated that he has high SHBG and that his FT was 10. So perhaps we can put this one to bed based on his FT, which was indeed low and may warrant TRT. If anything, that confirms for me that Defy actually does know what they're doing - looking under the hood beyond the sometimes meaningless TT number.

I agree with you though that there are some b.s. mills out there that aren't helping anyone - but let's not paint Defy with that same brush.

 

[BigBamBoo]

BigBamBoo,

Thanks for the reply! Your reply raises a few more questions if you dont mind:

- Did your labs show a difference in E2 between your MWF protocol and EOD?
- Would you say that you felt better on EOD compared to MWF?
- Was your weekly dose the same on MWF and EOD?
- When injecting MWF, were you particular about time of injection or did you just do them all in the morning, etc?

Thanks man!

Hey there.
I stopped before I tested at the EOD protocol, so can not answer that question.
Yes, I did feel better on the EOD protocol.
Each time I increased injection frequency I did lower my dose a bit.

On the M-W-F protocol I was injection Monday morning about 7 mid afternoon on Weds and about 9pm on Friday.

I too was interested in seeing my E2 on the EOD, but can tell you my E2 just about lowered by HALF when I went from every 3.5 days to the M-W-F injections.

My E2 was around 75 on the 3.5 day and when I tested after 6 weeks on the MWF I as in the high 30’s.

And that way the target level for my E2 from Defy due to my high SHBG...it ran around 70-75.

Hope this helps.

 

[fifty]

I switched from e3.5d w/ .125ai to mwf w/ .125ai and my e2 actually went up slightly. Total weekly dose of T and hcg was the same and total weekly dose of ai went from .25 to .375. Go figure.

 

[OsiRuss25]

Big Bam Boo, glad to hear your story. I think everyone sharing and seeing all the different effects and follow ups after will help in the end.

 

[BigBamBoo]

Yes, that is what makes this such a great community. Lots of input and lots of good info.

 

[OsiRuss25]

Yep, def been informative and helpful so far. Don't want to accidently hijack your thread, but kinda had the same story. All the symptoms, but numbers were in range.
I had an accident at practice and ended up w/ majorly invasive surgeries, so between that stress on my brain and body, the copious amounts of opiates they put me on (had fentanyl in my drip) and the amount of time not training anymore while recovering, on top of hospital food and just lifestyle adjustment, totally jacked my body and my mentality as well. 12 surgeries/procedures total. First person said try clomid restart, which just made me mental. Quit cold turkey, but test was actually lower than when I started it and sides were not going away. After about 5 weeks, talked to someone else who said low dose test cyp only, and same thing, not feeling any better, and actually worse. Especially anxiety wise, and sexually, bp is up, chest always tight, have to take a lot of deep breaths. Basically at the point where I'm like f it, just stop everything and let my body start over. Just didn't know how to go about it. Just got my blood drawn this a.m., so we'll see what the results say.

 

[KenLowT]

BigBamBoo, just wondering how you're doing now. I'm strongly considering getting off testosterone as well. I've received little to no benefits on it. I started because I had and still have no libido. It's been like this for me ever since I gained weight out of college. It's been a struggle to lose, but it's not like I'm morbidly obese. Anyways I did HCG monotherapy to keep my fertility, but that didn't work. My Total T and Free T actually lowered on it. My libido sucked and I had the classic E2 symptoms. Then I got desperate and got on testosterone hoping it would be the "magic formula", but just like you I have not received the benefit I searched for.

The DHEA I was taking gave me heart palps so I stopped that. My anxiety which also impacts my libido is gone, and my thyroid is working perfectly. My goal was to regain my libido so that my wife and I could work on having a baby, hence why I'm on HCG as well. It's very disappointing. I feel great otherwise, but I'm done poking myself all the time for nothing.

Honestly I don't know what going cold turkey off of test would look like. I know when I stopped HCG monotherapy cold turkey it gave me big time ED which was scary. It's good to see that there are others like me out there who just have not benefitted from TRT. I see it has done wonders for others and I wish I could say that was the same for me, but I'd be lying.

 

[BigBamBoo]

Hey there.
Well...I am still doing good. Sex most every day. All the negative sides I was having while on TRT are gone.

I know everyone is different, but I think if you ready yourself mentally for stopping, you should be fine.

My feelings were that stopping TRT and then taking other meds for a “restart” just seemed to me like it was just prolonging getting off all the “meds”.
And, with my high SHBG the doctor told me clomid would not work well as it would raise my SHBG even more.

So cold turkey it was. And I swear, I had zero issues. No crash. No mood swings. No sexual issues....in fact just the opposite. My sex life increased dramatically.

Hang in there. And stay strong.

 

[RLW]

You were having frequent sex and good sex and you you still went on testosterone !!! Why would you do that !!!!!!!!!!
Glad to see you are off.

Lots of people have low testosterone and many of the symptoms that go along with it and still have frequent and good sex.

 

[KenLowT]

Lots of people have low testosterone and many of the symptoms that go along with it and still have frequent and good sex.

Yes, I wish I was in that boat, lol.