Interestingly, I’ve read scant research suggesting that HCG decreases the efficacy of an enzyme responsible for clearing cortisol from the body. It is hypothesized (in the same literature) that this can contribute to anxiety.
xqfq
Active Member
I stopped HCG about a month ago when there was a shortage. I plan to take just testosterone for a little while (several months) to see how I do on a simple protocol.
The main problem I have with HCG is a sense of inconsistency. Sometimes I really feel the HCG in a positive way (libido, testicles, etc), other times it seems to just give me anxiety?
For me, HCG seems to add a significant amount to my free testosterone. When I have tested with just testosterone, I will come in at e.g. 12 pg/mL (Range: 8.7-25.1) on ED injections. With HCG added, this jumps up to 22 pg/mL (Range: 8.7-25.1) and I feel subjectively better. I have multiple labs showing this trend.
I now worry I may need a larger dose of testosterone to have the same subjective benefits I experienced before, and I was already a low responder. I currently suffer from low libido, for instance.
The main problem I have with HCG is a sense of inconsistency. Sometimes I really feel the HCG in a positive way (libido, testicles, etc), other times it seems to just give me anxiety?
For me, HCG seems to add a significant amount to my free testosterone. When I have tested with just testosterone, I will come in at e.g. 12 pg/mL (Range: 8.7-25.1) on ED injections. With HCG added, this jumps up to 22 pg/mL (Range: 8.7-25.1) and I feel subjectively better. I have multiple labs showing this trend.
I now worry I may need a larger dose of testosterone to have the same subjective benefits I experienced before, and I was already a low responder. I currently suffer from low libido, for instance.
Was ur libido good while on HCG and with a higher free T level, or it was about the same as it is now?
DixieWrecked
Well-Known Member
Same here man. I am in the middle of the anxiety right now. I'm eager for the HCG to wear off. I know I am acting like a bitch. The high DHT from the cream was not enough to counter the side effects of HCG in my case.
I need to beat this dead horse again.
Background: I am one of the few (if not, the only) guy here who routinely uses Natesto. I have tried a ton of other options, but always come back to Natesto (lowest side effect profile with decent TRT benefits). Prior to starting Natesto, I was put on hCG as part of my protocol. When I started Natesto, I stayed on hCG and have been on 100IU daily for years. Now, I am wondering if I need to be on it.
There are theories that hCG provides subjective benefits outside of it's stimulation of Leydig cells. That said, with respect to preserving and/or protecting my capacity to maintain fertility, I often wonder if the hCG has been necessary for me, because supposedly, Natesto minimizes endogenous production. @Cataceous, @readalot, @madman and anyone else with TRT experience, in general, if I respond well to Natesto, is it fair to assume hCG may not be necessary (with respect to fertility)?
I have pondered getting off hCG a number of times and have tried a few days off here and there. I have a variety of reasons why I'd like to be off hCG, including, but not limited to: Daily injections are a pain; I have long term acne issues. When I stop hCG for a few days, I tend to go back on it, deciding that I feel better on it.
But, and this is totally anecdotal, there was a period of time over this past summer when I was using Empower's hCG (normally, I use Pregnyl). I have (unsubstantiated) reason to believe that it was not potent - or even lacked any efficacy at all. Acne was down, and initially body aches were up. But, after about three weeks on it, I started to feel mentally really good. I was more peaceful and content. I realize there are numerous assumptions built into this theory, but I sort of wonder if being on Empower hCG was like being on nothing; and, if so, if I am able to stop hCG for long enough, will I reproduce the scenario above (Natesto alone, without hCG) and regain the positive mental benefit I describe above?
Perhaps, by being on Natesto, but off hCG, my CNS was able to "wake up" and start producing its own GnRH, FSH and LH? Maybe there was some benefit to the CNS doing this on its own after being suppressed by hCG?
On a related note, I have a theory about Natesto and efficacy over time. If you are someone who has been on other forms of TRT and subsequently switch to Natesto, you might notice an immediate improvement in mood and energy. On the other hand, you may not, but I think (but can't prove) that the experience could improve over time. If you start Natesto when endogenous production is totally shut down, then you will have periodic pulses of Test, with drops throughout the day. The lows will be low. However, if you stick with Natesto, my guess is that eventually, your own production picks up, and over time, the overall benefit increases, as your endogenous levels improve while the Natesto continues to top off what you are producing (ie, average levels go up).
Sorry - I am digressing and thinking out loud. But, as the topic suggests, please feel free to weigh in on hCG: have you stopped? For how long? Thoughts on the necessity of hCG with Natesto?
Thanks!
Background: I am one of the few (if not, the only) guy here who routinely uses Natesto. I have tried a ton of other options, but always come back to Natesto (lowest side effect profile with decent TRT benefits). Prior to starting Natesto, I was put on hCG as part of my protocol. When I started Natesto, I stayed on hCG and have been on 100IU daily for years. Now, I am wondering if I need to be on it.
There are theories that hCG provides subjective benefits outside of it's stimulation of Leydig cells. That said, with respect to preserving and/or protecting my capacity to maintain fertility, I often wonder if the hCG has been necessary for me, because supposedly, Natesto minimizes endogenous production. @Cataceous, @readalot, @madman and anyone else with TRT experience, in general, if I respond well to Natesto, is it fair to assume hCG may not be necessary (with respect to fertility)?
I have pondered getting off hCG a number of times and have tried a few days off here and there. I have a variety of reasons why I'd like to be off hCG, including, but not limited to: Daily injections are a pain; I have long term acne issues. When I stop hCG for a few days, I tend to go back on it, deciding that I feel better on it.
But, and this is totally anecdotal, there was a period of time over this past summer when I was using Empower's hCG (normally, I use Pregnyl). I have (unsubstantiated) reason to believe that it was not potent - or even lacked any efficacy at all. Acne was down, and initially body aches were up. But, after about three weeks on it, I started to feel mentally really good. I was more peaceful and content. I realize there are numerous assumptions built into this theory, but I sort of wonder if being on Empower hCG was like being on nothing; and, if so, if I am able to stop hCG for long enough, will I reproduce the scenario above (Natesto alone, without hCG) and regain the positive mental benefit I describe above?
Perhaps, by being on Natesto, but off hCG, my CNS was able to "wake up" and start producing its own GnRH, FSH and LH? Maybe there was some benefit to the CNS doing this on its own after being suppressed by hCG?
On a related note, I have a theory about Natesto and efficacy over time. If you are someone who has been on other forms of TRT and subsequently switch to Natesto, you might notice an immediate improvement in mood and energy. On the other hand, you may not, but I think (but can't prove) that the experience could improve over time. If you start Natesto when endogenous production is totally shut down, then you will have periodic pulses of Test, with drops throughout the day. The lows will be low. However, if you stick with Natesto, my guess is that eventually, your own production picks up, and over time, the overall benefit increases, as your endogenous levels improve while the Natesto continues to top off what you are producing (ie, average levels go up).
Sorry - I am digressing and thinking out loud. But, as the topic suggests, please feel free to weigh in on hCG: have you stopped? For how long? Thoughts on the necessity of hCG with Natesto?
Thanks!
@DixieWrecked, what's your current situation? Off hCG? Do you think the cream could have been causing anxiety? For me, cream put me way over the top and I was a total mess on it. Tons of anxiety, palpitations, crashy feeling later in the day, etc.
DixieWrecked
Well-Known Member
No longer on the cream. Now I'm just on the shots. Not doing well because I got this nandrolone in me at the moment
Using hCG with Natesto seems counterproductive to me. Although 100 IU daily of hCG probably isn't nearly as suppressive of the HPTA as regular TRT, it still has an effect, reducing levels of kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and FSH. You could try to quantify the effects with lab work, but otherwise I'd just stop the hCG and see how it goes. HCG is just an imperfect replacement for LH anyway.
I appreciate your insights and I definitely agree. If anyone’s interested in another data point, I will plan to go off and try to report back here periodically.
Anytime you have been on something long-term, there is bound to be some transition which might be unpleasant. Hopefully, I can muscle through it!
Thanks.
T
tareload
Guest
Just to clarify, Natesto seems to minimize negative feedback on HPTA, not minimize endogenous production of ______. Natesto (out of many other TRT options) appears to give you a reasonable opportunity to maintain whatever level of endogenous HPT(Testicular)A function you have. Especially if you are only taking once per day instead of 2 to 3x per day (quoting a knowledgeable provider who has clinical experience with Natesto).
Therefore, regardless of whether you are primary or secondary hypogonadal or former TOT hobbyist, Natesto (or equivalent) should give you best shot of maintaining whatever level of upstream stuff (as @Cataceous stated) potential you've got while also allowing you to test/experiment with short bursts of exogenous Testosterone.
On a personal note, I'm still slowly ratcheting down my weekly dosage of Test Cypionate (down to one 60 mg injection per week of TC) and taking about 1500 IU/week (500 IU 3X per week) of u-hCG. Last time I tried this (over a year ago) I went cold turkey for a month and that was a really dumb experiment. This time I am taking my sweet time and at some point I'll switch on the Natesto and switch off the TC and u-hCG. EDIT: 2-3 weeks after I switch the TC off I may take 0.25/0.5 mg of anastrozole two to three times weekly (transition period to minimize negative feedback / provide some positive feedback on HPTA) for a few weeks. Let me know if anyone thinks this is dumb.
My rate of perceived heart exertion when training hard seems to have improved dramatically and my pulse pressure has narrowed from 55-60 down to 45-50. Upon completing 40 pushups, my heart no longer feels like it is going to jump out of my throat. Will be interesting to complete another echo in 6-12 months and see if significant remodeling can be picked up on the mild diastolic dysfunction. I'll update when I have more info.
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Good thoughts. I have no personal knowledge of once per day versus multiple times per day, but I suspect once per day would not be “enough“ for me. I believe Dr. Lipschultz is trying to put together a trial in which he is using Natesto to help guys restart their own endogenous production. I don’t think the trial has started yet, but can’t state with certainty.
I personally suspect that Natesto allows you to maintain your current level, but I also think that if you are in a state of shut down from exogenous use, it will allow you some level of recovery of endogenous production above where you started once you stopped the exogenous use.
Good luck on your weaning. I have gone multiple times from injections back to Natesto due to lack of tolerance. I believe that the benefits of Natesto may take time, as I believe your endogenous production may gradually increase overtime with Natesto.
Most recently, I thought I would give very low-dose Xyosted another try, using 50 mg every 5 to 7 days. After one injection, I felt my heart pumping way harder than it should. I waited several days and restarted Natesto. not sure how accurate steroid plotter is, but according to it, I waited until I was secreting about 3 mg per day before restarting the Natesto.
In any case, I always appreciate your meaningful input. Please post back here if you decide to try Natesto.
T
tareload
Guest
Amen. That's my plan anyway for getting off the Testosterone Cypionate.
Seriously, I know placebo can be a big thing but the perceived difference on my heart since I started this experiment (was at 100 mg/week one weekly injection) in early Nov 2021 has been dramatic. Not much muscle loss yet and my tolerance for heavy squats/anaerobic exertion much better without my heart feeling like it is going to blow.
Last time I went cold turkey I muddied the water since I measured 87 ng/dl TT after about a month and induced significant bradycardia. This experiment working much smoother so far. Good luck and hang in there. Happy Holidays!!
I'm trying to think if there are any compelling reasons to use enclomiphene instead. Maybe not, particularly for a short period like this. Either drug can do the job and either drug has the possibility of some unwanted effects.
Unfortunately that site doesn't have the correct half-life for Xyosted, which is about 10 days. Typical formulations of testosterone enanthate have a shorter half-life of four to five days. You could use decanoate, but it's still low, at 7.5 days.
Strengthandlibido
Member
I, for one, really appreciate this digression. This is what I've been wondering about Natesto.
I'm just starting TRT and was steered away from Natesto, but I'm purposefully underdosing the test cypionate (or right-dosing?) to 18 mg EOD (63 mg text C/week). I have the intention of switching to Natesto next and hope I will not take too long to recover on it, especially since I will be dosing the TC so low.
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I recommend it. Little downside. Lots of upsides.
Strengthandlibido
Member
Thanks. I hope one of the upsides is libido. That's my main goal, but there seems to be mixed results of that from Natesto.
I think it is helpful in that regard. That said, I have been on hCG along with Natesto, so it’s a little hard to say what is providing the benefit. I plan to go off hCG and see how things go.
@Cataceous, I definitely think you are correct that Xyosted has different pharmacokinetics compared with other forms of enanthate. But, I was thinking about the phase II study they published in 2015. I am not sure how to post papers, but the title is:
Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone
Enanthate Delivered via a Novel, Prefilled Single-Use Autoinjector: A Phase II Study
In this study, they show a graph in which the peak levels with 50mg stay the same over six weeks, and they state: "The 50-mg dose exhibited no accumulation between doses...
suggesting that clearance exceeds exposure by the end of the dosing interval
". I would assume that if the half life were 7 days or less, that the peaks would gradually rise, or is this flawed thinking? I also finding it a little odd that, if this is true, they even offer 50mg. Why would someone want troughs that land them in the same sub therapeutic range every week?
Their website claims that the peaks and troughs stay in a 1.8x ratio with each other, suggesting peaks are nearly double the trough levels. So, if your trough is 500, you peak should be around 900. Does anyone know if this therapeutic window is tighter than other esters, or is it similar?
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