23mg EOD Results

[DS3]

Yes, as part of another test to see if the use of enclomiphene in this protocol can be reduced or eliminated. The tradeoff is in having non-physiological swings in serum testosterone, from ~700s to ~200s ng/dL. The hypothesis is that the low troughs lead to less HPTA suppression, allowing gonadorelin to continue stimulating gonadotropin production without enclomiphene. It's too early to report results, though I can say that so far these relatively low troughs are not leading to symptoms of hypogonadism.

It seems to me the issues some of experience, myself included, are more related to interruptions to the complex interplay between hormones and neurotransmitters with exogenous HRT. The emphasis on precise physiological T dosages with a never ending tinkering thereof seems more like a neurosis we have created than a prerequisite for optimal physical and mental health on TRT.

 

[Cataceous]

Your using clomid with TRT?

Enclomiphene rather than Clomid (clomiphene). Background here:

Pituitary restart while on TRT: promising initial results with GnRH plus enclomiphene

TL;DR: Over a period of seven weeks, treatment with GnRH and enclomiphene raised LH and FSH from around 0.1 mIU/mL to about 1.0 mIU/mL, even though TRT and hCG dosing were continued. Subjective results have been encouraging. I had written previously on the subject of GnRH suppression on TRT...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

You guys don't know what a low dose is. I'm taking 4.5 mg T propionate daily. That's equivalent to 38 mg of testosterone cypionate weekly. For better or worse, it seems like most guys on the forums are taking well above what's natural for their physiologies. Average testosterone production for young men is 6-7 mg per day, with few reaching 9 mg and over. This means average production is covered by 60-70 mg T cypionate per week, and the top producers would be covered by 90 mg.

It's no coincidence that the Xyosted T enanthate product comes only in doses of 50, 75 and 100 mg per week. These doses allow the vast majority of men to attain normal serum levels. The relatively long half-life of Xyosted means there's not the usual game playing in which trough testosterone is pushed to normal or above and the supraphysiological peaks are left out of sight and out of mind, at least until side effects interrupt the party.

I enjoy reading about your experiments. You're a good scientist. However, is using the endogenous production of T in young men a valid standard for men in their 40's and up? The hormonal milieu that existed in most of us when we were in our teens/20's/30's is declining. When we were young(er) we could abuse our bodies and recover, quickly. For men, our recovery time after orgasm was also quick. Dopamine. I could go at it three or four times in a night. Masturbation had no impact, either, on my sexual function. To reiterate, our physiology/neuro-endocrine system isn't what it was when we were in our prime. Perhaps most men will improve with 50-100 mg, weekly, per Xyosted(test E) or test cyp, 'improving' meaning erectile function. Good labs are meaningless without restoration of sexual function. That's the gold standard.

 

[madman]

Depends on your point of reference I suppose. To me anything under 200 is a low dose, which is fine and great for most guys. That’s partly because 200 had been the standard for years. Depending on what I’m doing I’ll be at 140-196 a week injected daily. Exogenous T doesn’t behave in exactly the same way naturally produced T does or have all the same responses or metabolites at the same rates, so making comparisons only based on your TT and FT numbers on a blood test isn’t always the way to go, though if your TT is over 9k or something crazy you’re going to have problems. I’ve tried 86mg a week injected daily for long periods before and I felt worse than when my levels were about the same without TRT. Common experience.

That’s partly because 200 had been the standard for years.

Those piss poor 200mg/week protocols.....sure if you enjoy those big swings/extremes in peak--->trough let alone in many cases throwing in an AI to boot.

200 mg/week injected more frequently as in twice weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD let alone daily would be overkill for most.

Trough FT would be through the roof.

Sure some men may need such does to achieve what would be considered descent T levels but it is far from common.




Exogenous T doesn’t behave in exactly the same way naturally produced T does or have all the same responses or metabolites at the same rates

When using exogenous T many factors can come into play when it comes to what dose of T is needed to achieve a healthy FT level.

The dose T, SHBG level, injection frequency, metabolism, the sensitivity of the AR, polymorphism of the AR, and CAG repeat length (long/short), bodyweight.

Not so cut n dry!




though if your TT is over 9k or something crazy you’re going to have problems.

LMFAO.

So in other words running around with a TT 3000-5000 ng/dL is all fine and dandy!

Cycling, blasting/cruising testosterone/AAS running much lower T levels <9000ng/dL plays no part in maintaining long-term health.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

It seems to me the issues some of experience, myself included, are more related to interruptions to the complex interplay between hormones and neurotransmitters with exogenous HRT. The emphasis on precise physiological T dosages with a never ending tinkering thereof seems more like a neurosis we have created than a prerequisite for optimal physical and mental health on TRT.

There's a physician on T-Nation; goes by the handle 'highpull'. His protocol for himself and his patients is dirt simple; weekly injection between 100 and 200 mg. He states that 75% of his patients do well on that protocol. 'Doing well' meaning losing weight, gaining muscle and sexual function. No AI either. He also says the remaining 25% use either E3.5D or EOD. Other than test prop or topical, simple is preferable. We all want to live and enjoy our lives.

 

[Anonymon]

though if your TT is over 9k or something crazy you’re going to have problems.

LMFAO.

So in other words running around with a TT 3000-5000 ng/dL is all fine and dandy!

Cycling, blasting/cruising testosterone/AAS running much lower T levels <9000ng/dL plays no part in maintaining long-term health.

Haha, no, I was joking. The 9K was a Dragon Ball Z reference. I’m not even sure how much test it would take to get that high, though if 150-200 can get you to 1500 in some guys, I’m assuming it’d be at or under a gram a week, which is unfortunately common among many bodybuilders now that don’t know any better. The classic physique era was so much better. You don’t exactly see people running to the Mr Olympia’s now to appear in movies, though Kai Greene was in Stranger Things.

 

[Anonymon]

There's a physician on T-Nation; goes by the handle 'highpull'. His protocol for himself and his patients is dirt simple; weekly injection between 100 and 200 mg. He states that 75% of his patients do well on that protocol. 'Doing well' meaning losing weight, gaining muscle and sexual function. No AI either. He also says the remaining 25% use either E3.5D or EOD. Other than test prop or topical, simple is preferable. We all want to live and enjoy our lives.

Greg Doucette said he was doing 150-200 injected weekly for most of his TRT and felt fine on it. Everybody’s different. I do daily because it seems objectively superior across most metrics, and I have other things besides test that I inject all the time anyway. Daily as in injection frequency, not 150-200 a day.

 

[Cataceous]

... However, is using the endogenous production of T in young men a valid standard for men in their 40's and up? ...

It's a good question, and I won't claim an affirmative answer is certain. However, I think we are pursuing this idyll by trying to get most things back to how they were in our primes. So when we lack better information it seems like a reasonable target.

 

[GreenMachineX]

No one really said anything about my HCT...

 

[Systemlord]

These HCT levels aren't what I would consider alarming and this is why no one mentioned anything in regards to your HCT.

My HCT is 56% on the lowest dose for Jetanzo and I only donate to play it safe even though I'm not symptomatic.

I feel no different after my phlebotomy.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

No one really said anything about my HCT...

I recall pmgamer(Phil) saying that before your labs, drink a couple of glasses of water since dehydration seems to be a factor in HCT. Found this reference.

"Dehydration—this is the most common cause of a high hematocrit. As the volume of fluid in the blood drops, the RBCs per volume of fluid artificially rises; with adequate fluid intake, the hematocrit returns to normal." Apr 20, 2021

Hematocrit | Lab Tests Online​

https://labtestsonline.org › Tests

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Haha, no, I was joking. The 9K was a Dragon Ball Z reference. I’m not even sure how much test it would take to get that high, though if 150-200 can get you to 1500 in some guys, I’m assuming it’d be at or under a gram a week, which is unfortunately common among many bodybuilders now that don’t know any better. The classic physique era was so much better. You don’t exactly see people running to the Mr Olympia’s now to appear in movies, though Kai Greene was in Stranger Things.

This is going off topic, but not so much, since you refer to old school body builders. Monar Aich, India, Mr. Universe, 1952. Find pics of him. Trained all day when he was imprisoned by the British, as he was a supporter of Gandhi. He ate fish, lentils, vegetables, fruit, drank milk. Lived to 104. Fathered several children when he was an old man.

 

[Anonymon]

This is going off topic, but not so much, since you refer to old school body builders. Monar Aich, India, Mr. Universe, 1952. Find pics of him. Trained all day when he was imprisoned by the British, as he was a supporter of Gandhi. He ate fish, lentils, vegetables, fruit, drank milk. Lived to 104. Fathered several children when he was an old man.

Hadn’t heard of him but he looks great. To connect it more with the topic, for bodybuilding purposes if someone’s interested in that, you really don’t need that much test. If you are going to try to push the envelope with something, the safest way would be to keep test at some kind of baseline for bodily functions and use something else with it that would be the envelope pusher. And even then you might not need to do that. As a natural I looked better than most of the gears that are on gear. Also started younger though. Everybody’s different. Pretty much anybody can get to a physique they’re happy with on good health levels of test, or just having healthy natural levels. If I didn’t get screwed up by finasteride I wouldn’t be on HRT and I would have still looked and felt better than a lot of guys pushing the envelope on HRT. Most guys that do use crazy doses all revert to baseline eventually anyway.