“Cycling” for the sweet spot.

[BigBamBoo]

Ok...hear me out.

There seems to be a fair amount of guys on here that just do not feel good on full time TRT treatment.

But like myself, get that “honeymoon/sweet spot” after a few weeks of starting TRT and for myself I get that same feeling when I stopped about 3-4 weeks after my last injection.

My theory is that not all men do well on a steady state of T. So why not “cycle” to the sweet spot?

I am at the point of stopping TRT again due to the “side effects”. I have tried many adjustments trying to get dialed in, and it just seems like a never ending cycle that yields the exact same results....never feeling great on TRT.

Just throwing ideas out there and welcome input on this.

 

[HarryCat2]

My experience exactly.

I've read about guys on other forums who do take breaks from TRT when the subjective benefits wear off.

Of course the guys who do well on a steady state protocol will all chime in and say what a dumb idea it is, but I have never found a steady state protocol that makes me feel well in 7 years of trying.

 

[TLR]

I remember reading somewhere about a guy that, for whatever reason, got the idea to vary his dose weekly and then take a week off......he did like 60 mg, 80 mg, 100 mg, then took a week off then started again at 60. He swore by it and said he believed since the levels in normal men aren't static they shouldn't be on TRT.....I know in my experience I've noticed at times when I've missed an injection day a d went over a day or two i actually felt pretty good a lot of those times.

 

[BigBamBoo]

I think it comes down to the individual. Some seem to do well on a steady state.

But for me it just makes me “flat” or very linear. I do feel better with an elevated T level. But the sexual side effects and the flatness caused by TRT just plain suck.

 

[BigBamBoo]

I remember reading somewhere about a guy that, for whatever reason, got the idea to vary his dose weekly and then take a week off......he did like 60 mg, 80 mg, 100 mg, then took a week off then started again at 60. He swore by it and said he believed since the levels in normal men aren't static they shouldn't be on TRT.....I know in my experience I've noticed at times when I've missed an injection day a d went over a day or two i actually felt pretty good a lot of those times.

Yes, I have read similar things. I think for me I would do better with the up and downs.

 

[TLR]

Yep.....your talking to a guy who has tried going off twice....I typically feel better on a lower dose, but I know what you are talking about as far as the flat feeling when you are stable. I've come to the conclusion you can't fool mother nature.

 

[Vince Carter]

I'm certainly wide open to the alternatives off the mainstream, I adopted a very unconventional position on Estrogen and found that it works for me so going against the grain is something every guy should try.
a little T for a week, a week off, topicals on the scrotum, things like that are things that guys should be able to explore.

 

[S1W]

There is a core group of experienced guys on a bodybuilding forum that swear by 10mg/day injections. They claim it makes them feel "normal" again and they still get the benefits of TRT.

Seems low to me and haven't tried it myself...

 

[Cataceous]

There is a core group of experienced guys on a bodybuilding forum that swear by 10mg/day injections. They claim it makes them feel "normal" again and they still get the benefits of TRT.

Seems low to me and haven't tried it myself...

Assuming T cypionate, that's 7 mg of testosterone, which is quite normal for daily testosterone, with endogenous production estimates ranging from about 3-9 mg per day.

 

[mjb]

There is a core group of experienced guys on a bodybuilding forum that swear by 10mg/day injections. They claim it makes them feel "normal" again and they still get the benefits of TRT.

Seems low to me and haven't tried it myself...

The OP of that same thread I believe you are referring to mentions alternating 10mg/day for 8 wks and 20mg/day for 8 wks for those with ambitions of competing. Says he did it non-stop for 5 years until he retired and has been doing 10mg/day ever since. Theory is that it allows for time to reset, re-sensitize, and get better effect than staying at higher dose constantly. Kind of a TRT blast and cruise.

 

[Gman86]

Before anybody tries quitting, I would definitely give creams a try. Specifically transscrotal cream application. It sounds perfect for what you’re trying to achieve. The fact that creams are not attached to an esther, mean they peak and drop quickly, giving your receptors a little break each day. Might have the same exact effect as what you guys are trying to accomplish. Transscrotal creams also come with benefits that you can’t get from injections, such as the benefits of increased DHT, which might be the piece to the puzzle you guys are missing. Don’t know until you try.

You could even try the idea of cycling first, and if that doesn’t work, then try creams. Either way, coming off completely just doesn’t make sense to me. If you need TRT, not being on TRT makes zero sense. I would keep trying different things until I’m dead before quitting TRT. Doesn’t make sense to come off, feel like crap, and even worse risk your health due to having low testosterone.

 

[TLR]

The OP of that same thread I believe you are referring to mentions alternating 10mg/day for 8 wks and 20mg/day for 8 wks for those with ambitions of competing. Says he did it non-stop for 5 years until he retired and has been doing 10mg/day ever since. Theory is that it allows for time to reset, re-sensitize, and get better effect than staying at higher dose constantly. Kind of a TRT blast and cruise.

Reminds me of a post Dr Saya put on here awhile back in reference to everyday dosing. When using cyp you have to remember the "stacking" effect that takes place due to the ester. You are getting about 7 mg of test daily, but not all of it is getting used initially. I remember he said it takes 5 half lives (40 days for cyp) before you reach the steady state. 10 mg a day sounds low till you consider that, and I bet alot of guys would reach a pretty good level on that dose.

 

[Novaman]

This cycling thought is something I have pondered as well. I have been trying to get "dialed in" for 4+ years now, have even quit for up to 3 months only to go back on to try something else. I do notice that I can feel great for 2 weeks or so and then begin to feel crappy. I haven't tried going on for 2weeks and off for 1 week or skip a dose but I'm tempted to try it. I heard of one guy somewhere who skips a dose after 3 weeks and that keeps him in a sweet spot.

 

[Cataceous]

Reminds me of a post Dr Saya put on here awhile back in reference to everyday dosing. When using cyp you have to remember the "stacking" effect that takes place due to the ester. You are getting about 7 mg of test daily, but not all of it is getting used initially. I remember he said it takes 5 half lives (40 days for cyp) before you reach the steady state. 10 mg a day sounds low till you consider that, and I bet alot of guys would reach a pretty good level on that dose.

This is true but deserves clarification. Injecting 10 mg of T cypionate daily is going to give you the same average serum testosterone as you'd get from injecting 70 mg once a week. For example, a guy on 10 mg per day might have almost constant serum testosterone of 600 ng/dL, whereas on 70 mg once a week he could have a peak of 800 ng/dL which falls down to 400 ng/dL right before the next injection. The "stacking" effect in frequent injections simply smooths out the peaks and troughs into a fairly constant value.

 

[BigBamBoo]

When I do every 3.5 days I get very elevated E2...around the 70+

When on MWF or EOD my E2 drops in half.

And I am a high SHBG guy....70+.

I am really contemplating trying the whole “cycle” idea.

 

[sh1973]

The body adapts unfortunately no matter what dose, modality or frequency. Been at this nearly a decade and have tried it all other than pellets. I too have high SHBG and only feel good with 60mg once per week. Libido has been elusive from the beginning and has at no point ever been even 30% consistently of what natural was. This has been my biggest hurdle and unfortunately this is a big problem for many guys on TRT. Something happens once shutting down the hormonal pathways that no amount of tinkering can overcome and I'm absolutely convinced of this. Hard to ignore the elephant in the room but TRT simply does not work in a larger percentage of men. Sorta like the analogy of a dog chasing it's tail.

 

[TLR]

Sounds like my story other than I would add it has exacerbated my pre existing anxiety.

 

[Gman86]

The body adapts unfortunately no matter what dose, modality or frequency. Been at this nearly a decade and have tried it all other than pellets. I too have high SHBG and only feel good with 60mg once per week. Libido has been elusive from the beginning and has at no point ever been even 30% consistently of what natural was. This has been my biggest hurdle and unfortunately this is a big problem for many guys on TRT. Something happens once shutting down the hormonal pathways that no amount of tinkering can overcome and I'm absolutely convinced of this. Hard to ignore the elephant in the room but TRT simply does not work in a larger percentage of men. Sorta like the analogy of a dog chasing it's tail.

Have you tried transscrotal cream yet? Seems like everyone has great libido on that stuff. Whether they feel good on it or not, seems like they all still at least have great libido on it.

 

[sh1973]

If someone could create an ester with a 10-12 hour half life I truly believe it would work. 70-80% of the time I feel chemically castrated but feel ok energy and mood wise. My last injection was Tuesday and it will be my last for a while. I’m going to wait 1.5 weeks and go back on androgel 1.62 which is what I used in the beginning. I used this for 1.5 years and this was the best I felt on trt. I have six bottles that I’m going to try for at least two months. Keeping my fingers crossed that I can replicate the previous success. Injections for me at this point is like beating a damn dead horse.

 

[HarryCat2]

Have you tried transscrotal cream yet? Seems like everyone has great libido on that stuff. Whether they feel good on it or not, seems like they all still at least have great libido on it.

Where are you getting that idea from? I tried transcrotal cream with and without concurrent injections for several years and never got a boost in libido from it.