Permanent crash of estrogen?

I also read that morphine can increase 5 Alpha Reducatse MRNA, but also increases Aromatase mRNA in the brain and gonads. Im assuming by logic you would be getting a boost in DHT from taking morphine but also a boost in estrogen. Now Idk if I’d wanna agree with injecting moprhine but I heard there are natural alternative soures to get morphine into your system, I heard poppy seeds contain morphine and codeine. Basically 100g poppy seeds equals to 0.5-20mg of morphine. Also heard that morphine acts as an opiod agonist and opiods lower testosterone so that’s that lol. Still contemplating about it but not so sure lol, I will see in the future. I am in a phase of experimenting.

Okay so I recently found out that when I consume soy isoflavone supplement which has phytoestrogens that bind to estrogen receptors either exerting weak estrogenic activity or antiestrogenic activity, I get a slight improvement in joint health and a little better pumps and veins popping little out more, but barely enough to make a big difference. The thing is I don’t wanna flood my estrogen receptors with these weak estrogen receptor agonists (phytoestrogens) and would rather have my esteogen receptors remain in a blank state so they will become flooded and acitvated by much more powerful estrogens like legit estradiol pills or injection the hormone itself. If you think it’s fine then I’ll gladly keep taking it but just for you to know it barely does much only a little improvement in joint health, less cracky but still has that tiny little crackiness to it.

@Mttumasov
You illustrated it very well hahaha.
I have the exact same symptoms.

I wouldn't eat the soy supplement.
Though, I wonder how you would respond to the popular menopause supplement that contains siberian rhubarb (life extension sells it, for example).

Don't bother with morphine. It's good that you research though. Dynorphin inhibits hpta via certain opioid receptor. This is why low dose naltrexone was suggested for PCT by some people.

Btw, before your crash, were you taking anything else? Supplementing with anything, like zinc?

zancek0 said:

He tried 0.25mg first then 1mg a month later then 2mg a month after that. He wasnt on TRT during this. Somehow that worked. Those classic E2 pills for women.

However, I'm in/I was in contact with many more E2 crashers. Some don't respond to E2 at all. Some respond only to certain forms (so there's some differences in pharmokinetics between oral, transdermal and injections). Many claimed that E2 cured them though (in the sense that they did it for a while and then could stop without symptoms returning)...

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when u say 0.25mg first, then 1mg a month later, and 2mg the next month, I assume ur friend was doing 0.25mg every day for a month, 1mg every day for a month, and then 2mg every day for a month, is that correct? And then he stopped taking it all together after that 3rd month?

Gman86 said:

when u say 0.25mg first, then 1mg a month later, and 2mg the next month, I assume ur friend was doing 0.25mg every day for a month, 1mg every day for a month, and then 2mg every day for a month, is that correct? And then he stopped taking it all together after that 3rd month?

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Oh shit, I'm not sure. I'd have to check with him. The way he told me seemed as if it was like this: he tried 0.25mg and then waited for 1 month. And then took a bigger dose. And so on. He said he was scared that it would backfire, that's why he took lower dose first.

This reminds me of a weird PFS case. The guy found out that he recovers from severe PFS to about 80% pre-PFS state with 100mcg E2 patches/2x week. Without TRT. His androgens are basically undetectable yet he did not get feminized. He says he likes how E2 makes him feel.
I think this is a good example of how the body employs certain epigenetic mechanisms to ensure that the androgen receptor can signal without the actual androgen ligand. When he uses androgens of any sort, he crashes badly. It is possible that the permanent cure for him would entail takinga androgens and suffering the horrible symptoms until the epigenetic changes would be removed, so to speak.
But this is a different thing entirely, unrelated to the guy above.

zancek0 said:

@Mttumasov
You illustrated it very well hahaha.
I have the exact same symptoms.

I wouldn't eat the soy supplement.
Though, I wonder how you would respond to the popular menopause supplement that contains siberian rhubarb (life extension sells it, for example).

Don't bother with morphine. It's good that you research though. Dynorphin inhibits hpta via certain opioid receptor. This is why low dose naltrexone was suggested for PCT by some people.

Btw, before your crash, were you taking anything else? Supplementing with anything, like zinc?

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When I was taking arimistane I was taking it with tongkat ali & fadojia agrestis and half a pill of zinc, Vitamin K2 Mk7, Vitamin D3 5000IU, that was basically all for the stack on cycle. Researched tongkat ali acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist because I tested it out once while I was in a crash it it just made me so flat and joints even more crackier and hurt, along with no stamina/fatique and no pumps and further anhedonia.

Mttumasov said:

When I was taking arimistane I was taking it with tongkat ali & fadojia agrestis and half a pill of zinc, Vitamin K2 Mk7, Vitamin D3 5000IU, that was basically all for the stack on cycle. Researched tongkat ali acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist because I tested it out once while I was in a crash it it just made me so flat and joints even more crackier and hurt, along with no stamina/fatique and no pumps and further anhedonia.

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Lol, I was also taking tongkat, zinc, D3 when I crashed with aromasin. Funny (not).
Tongkat ali is weird - it's actually a potent AI but in a weird way. I haven't read about ER antagonism but it's possible.


Can I please ask you to go do some blood tests? I've been researching these AI crashes for over a year now and have managed to get some blood tests from other people. But not enough to find any clear pattern.
As of now, it's similar to PFS in terms of the variability between cases.
If you can, then I would check these: LH/FSH, test, E2, prolactin, DHT, progesterone, electrolytes. Thyroid and iron panel would get very helpful too. And ceruloplasmin and copper. But if this is too expensive, try to get at least LH/FSH, TT and E2, electrolytes and thyroid panel (tsh, free t4, free t3).

Good luck with your journey.

Would it be safe to take the life extension menopause 731 which has the siberian rhubarb. Will it not flood the both estrogen receptors? Or should I just wait it out until I get the real estrogen pills instead?

Mttumasov said:

Would it be safe to take the life extension menopause 731 which has the siberian rhubarb. Will it not flood the both estrogen receptors? Or should I just wait it out until I get the real estrogen pills instead?

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You can try 1-3 tablets of 731 to see if you react at all but yeah, I would first wait for real estrogen. Either pills or cream.

Cataceous said:

Let's see you cite some examples. In our last outing you stormed out without asking for evidence. But if you're asking now then I'm happy to share some other references that your friend readalot/tareload provided.

The basics are encapsulated in this quote:

However, as discussed in Chapter 5, unbound drug concentrations will not be affected by decreases in the protein binding of restrictively metabolized drugs. Therefore, no dosage alterations are required for these drugs when protein binding is the only parameter that is changed.[R]​

Here's another good one:

However, steady-state concentrations of unbound drug will be unchanged as long as there is no change in CLint.[R]​

View attachment 44773

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Did he ever respond to this? Don't see it.

Nice post @Cataceous !

aloetard said:

Did he ever respond to this? Don't see it.
...

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When challenged, he either disappears or else ignores it.

aloetard said:

...
Nice post @Cataceous !

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Credit to you for providing the references.

RobRoy said:

The English philosopher Bertrand Russell once said, “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts

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Robroy quoting Bertrand Russell? Damn, I was gone for too long. Thanks Robroy!

What was your undergraduate major Robroy?

Mttumasov said:

Also the Aromatase inhibitor I used was a suicide inhibitor/ irreversible inhibitor and goes by the the name “Arimistane” Onviously made a terrible mistake but itis what it is and I am just emotionally numb aat this point so no point in harvesting negative emotions but I will try my best to get through and cure this damn hell. All support, recommendations, and keeping kn touch is highly appreciated! Thanks to all!

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Hey bro!

I made the same mistake on the same drug. Been struggling 7 years. I’m currently on TRT and E2 treatment and it’s definitely helped me, but hasn’t 100% cured me. I’m going to try to increase estrogen dose slowly but sure. Currently at 0.75mg E2 cypionate twice per week. 1mg gave me some anxiety last week I think, but going to try to roll upwards.

But yeah, arimistane fucked me.

I was natty when I took arimistane which is an even sillier mistake, but back then, it was available OTC on Amazon and advertised as a test booster and exercise supp. Easy mistake to make when you're a 20 year old caveman lol.

The good news is I think there's a way out. I've spoken to several people who have recovered. Some took estradiol, others a gambit of steroids, others Finasteride it seems.... just gotta find what works.