How to Predict Estradiol and DHT at Different Testosterone Doses

[Nelson Vergel]

I was able to come up with a table using the predictive model equation derived from data in this study:

The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men

Summary​

This video discusses a research paper that explores the effects of different testosterone doses on estradiol and DHT levels in men. The study involved young and older men receiving weekly injections of testosterone for five months. The researchers measured estradiol and DHT blood levels and analyzed the data.

Highlights​

• The study examined the impact of various testosterone doses on estradiol and DHT levels in men.
• The research involved young and older men who received testosterone injections for five months.
• The study measured estradiol and DHT blood levels to understand the effects of testosterone doses.
• The researchers used a mathematical model to predict estradiol and DHT levels based on testosterone doses.
• The findings showed that estradiol levels increased with higher testosterone doses, especially in older men.
• DHT levels also increased with testosterone doses but not as significantly as estradiol.
• The study suggests that testosterone replacement therapy may require individualized monitoring of estradiol and DHT levels.

The graphs shown in the study (They injected several doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men) show sensitive estradiol and DHT at different total testosterone blood levels. The curves reach a pseudo plateau at higher TT levels. Older men tended to produce more estradiol and DHT than younger men.

The equation I used was based on a mathematical model shown in this study that included variables calculated from Michaelis-Menten kinetics.

For older men:

E2 (regular immunoassay- not sensitive)= 138.3xTT/(1470.1+TT)

DHT = 269.4xTT/(2389.6+TT)

TT= Total Testosterone

Here is the table I came up with for older men

Of course, as you can see from the graphs above, there is a lot of variability in values, so these predicted numbers are just representing the curve.

Since these estradiol values were immunoassay-based, sensitive (LC/MS) values would be lower. How much lower? We don't know since CRP values were not measured. I would multiply the estradiol numbers in the above table by 0.80 to arrive at a guess for sensitive estradiol values.


These were the baseline characteristics of both groups before they received testosterone enanthate injections. Both groups seemed relatively lean to me.

Treatment protocol:

MAIN MESSAGE: ESTRADIOL AND DHT "NORMAL RANGES" SHOWN BY LABCORP OR QUEST ARE DERIVED FROM MEN WHO DO NOT HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE. MANY MEN ON TRT USUALLY HAVE "HIGHER" TESTOSTERONE THAN "NORMAL", SO THOSE RANGES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM. STOP OBSESSING!

 

[DS3]

I was able to come up with a table using the predictive model equation derived from data in this study:

The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men


The graphs shown in the study (They injected several doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men) show sensitive estradiol and DHT at different total testosterone blood levels. The curves reach a pseudo plateau at higher TT levels. Older men tended to produce more estradiol and DHT than younger men.

Summary​

This video discusses a research paper that explores the effects of different testosterone doses on estradiol and DHT levels in men. The study involved young and older men receiving weekly injections of testosterone for five months. The researchers measured estradiol and DHT blood levels and analyzed the data.

Highlights​

• The study examined the impact of various testosterone doses on estradiol and DHT levels in men.
• The research involved young and older men who received testosterone injections for five months.
• The study measured estradiol and DHT blood levels to understand the effects of testosterone doses.
• The researchers used a mathematical model to predict estradiol and DHT levels based on testosterone doses.
• The findings showed that estradiol levels increased with higher testosterone doses, especially in older men.
• DHT levels also increased with testosterone doses but not as significantly as estradiol.
• The study suggests that testosterone replacement therapy may require individualized monitoring of estradiol and DHT levels.

View attachment 9467

The equation I used based mathematical model in this study included variables calculated from Michaelis-Menten kinetics.

For older men:

E2 (sensitive)= 138.3xTT/(1470.1xTT)

DHT = 269.4xTT/(2389.6xTT)

TT= Total Testosterone

Here is the table I came up with for older men

Of course, as you can see from the graphs above, there is a lot of variability in values, so these predicted numbers are just representing the curve.

Extremely close to where my E2 is when I’m at 1150 ng/dL. Thanks for posting.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

@Cataceous @madman @Jinzang @Jason Sypolt @Vince

 

[Cataceous]

A typo in the equations. Second "x" should be "+".
E.g. 138.3xTT/(1470.1xTT) --> 138.3xTT/(1470.1+TT)

 

[Nelson Vergel]

A typo in the equations. Second "x" should be "+".
E.g. 138.3xTT/(1470.1xTT) --> 138.3xTT/(1470.1+TT)

Thanks for catching that. Table is OK though. There is something else no one has noticed but I will see who does first.

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks for catching that. Table is OK though. There is something else no one has noticed but I will see who does first.

A minor issue, though maybe not what you're referring to. Problematic grammar: "The equation I used based mathematical model in this study included variables calculated from Michaelis-Menten kinetics."

In addition, the study used RIA for estradiol testing rather than LC-MS/MS, so maybe not technically "sensitive" estradiol.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

A minor issue, though maybe not what you're referring to. Problematic grammar: "The equation I used based mathematical model in this study included variables calculated from Michaelis-Menten kinetics."

In addition, the study used RIA for estradiol testing rather than LC-MS/MS, so maybe not technically "sensitive" estradiol.

Good eye. I am not sure where I got the impression they used LC/MS for estradiol. I edited it.

Thanks!!

 

[JA Battle]

@Nelson Vergel is a young guys chart on the horizon?

 

[Cataceous]

@Nelson Vergel is a young guys chart on the horizon?

You can also just use the calculator on your phone or computer. The average "young man" equations are:

E2 (pg/mL) = 100.7 * TT / (1981.0 + TT)

DHT (ng/dL) = 161.2 * TT / (1109.2 + TT)

TT = Total Testosterone in ng/dL

 

[JA Battle]

thanks for spoonfeeding me @Cataceous

 

[Tommy Wall]

Great post Nelson! I think that table is pretty accurate.

 

[Gunga]

Good eye. I am not sure where I got the impression they used LC/MS for estradiol. I edited it.

Thanks!!

So forgive my naivety, is the Estradiol measure used presumably “overstated” compared to what the sensitive test would show? I’m trying to figure out what the corresponding sensitive estradiol would be for a Testosterone level of 1275 ish. Using the table, I assume it should be 64.2 but then reduced 10-20% when converting to sensitive test? Am I way off? Thanks guys! This has been a phenomenal resource for me and has vastly reduced the time to finally optimize my personal TRT protocol.

 

[Gunga]

My last sensitive estradiol was 40.6
My last Total Test was 1282
Splitting hairs but might it be too low?

FYY, I’m on Armidex .125 twice per week.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I assume it should be 64.2 but then reduced 10-20% when converting to sensitive test? Am I way off?

You are right. It's hard to predict how much higher the regular estradiol test result is compared to the sensitive one. This difference depends on the degree of inflammation (CRP) the person has. I assumed 20% to pick a number.

Source:


Comparisons of Immunoassay and Mass Spectrometry Measurements of Serum Estradiol Levels and Their Influence on Clinical Association Studies in Men

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 2013, Vol.98(6), pp.E1097-E1102

Description

CONTEXT:: Immunoassay-based techniques, routinely used to measure serum estradiol (E2), are known to have reduced specificity, especially at lower concentrations, when compared with the gold standard technique of mass spectrometry (MS). Different measurement techniques may be responsible for the conflicting results of associations between serum E2 and clinical phenotypes in men. OBJECTIVE:: Our objective was to compare immunoassay and MS measurements of E2 levels in men and evaluate associations with clinical phenotypes. DESIGN AND SETTING:: Middle-aged and older male subjects participating in the population-based Osteoporotic Fractures in Men (MrOS) Sweden study (n = 2599), MrOS US (n = 688), and the European Male Aging Study (n = 2908) were included. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:: Immunoassay and MS measurements of serum E2 were compared and related to bone mineral density (BMD; measured by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry) and ankle-brachial index. RESULTS:: Within each cohort, serum E2 levels obtained by immunoassay and MS correlated moderately (Spearman rank correlation coefficient rS 0.53–0.76). Serum C-reactive protein (CRP) levels associated significantly (albeit to a low extent, rS = 0.29) with immunoassay E2 but not with MS E2 levels. Similar associations of immunoassay E2 and MS E2 were seen with lumbar spine and total hip BMD, independent of serum CRP. However, immunoassay E2, but not MS E2, associated inversely with ankle-brachial index, and this correlation was lost after adjustment for CRP. CONCLUSIONS:: Our findings suggest interference in the immunoassay E2 analyses, possibly by CRP or a CRP-associated factor. Although associations with BMD remain unaffected, this might imply for a reevaluation of previous association studies between immunoassay E2 levels and inflammation-related outcomes.

 

[chris@]

I was able to come up with a table using the predictive model equation derived from data in this study:

The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men


The graphs shown in the study (They injected several doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men) show sensitive estradiol and DHT at different total testosterone blood levels. The curves reach a pseudo plateau at higher TT levels. Older men tended to produce more estradiol and DHT than younger men.

View attachment 9467

The equation I used was based on a mathematical model shown in this study that included variables calculated from Michaelis-Menten kinetics.

For older men:

E2 (sensitive)= 138.3xTT/(1470.1+TT)

DHT = 269.4xTT/(2389.6+TT)

TT= Total Testosterone

Here is the table I came up with for older men

Of course, as you can see from the graphs above, there is a lot of variability in values, so these predicted numbers are just representing the curve.

View attachment 9472
Since these estradiol values were immunoassay-based, sensitive (LC/MS) values would be lower. How much lower? We don't know since CRP values were not measured.


These were the baseline characteristics of both groups before they received testosterone enanthate injections. Both groups seemed relatively lean to me.

View attachment 9470

Treatment protocol:

View attachment 9471


MAIN MESSAGE: ESTRADIOL AND DHT "NORMAL RANGES" SHOWN BY LABCORP OR QUEST ARE DERIVED FROM MEN WHO DO NOT HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE. MANY MEN ON TRT USUALLY HAVE "HIGHER" TESTOSTERONE THAN "NORMAL", SO THOSE RANGES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM. STOP OBSESSING!

Interesting. My estradiol was very close to what the table predicted. Good stuff. Thank you.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I am going to make a video of this paper this week to explain it well. It is essential since men on TRT with high T are freaking out when they get a "high estradiol" value from Quest or LabCorp

Quest Diagnostics - Estradiol Range is Inadequate

See attached. I recentlay had bloodwork done, and my Ultrasensitive Estradiol came back at a 4. Typically, I would say this is low, however, they showed a range of

www.excelmale.com

 

[Nelson Vergel]

 

[Devil613]

I am going to make a video of this paper this week to explain it well. It is essential since men on TRT with high T are freaking out when they get a "high estradiol" value from Quest or LabCorp

Quest Diagnostics - Estradiol Range is Inadequate

See attached. I recentlay had bloodwork done, and my Ultrasensitive Estradiol came back at a 4. Typically, I would say this is low, however, they showed a range of

www.excelmale.com

Hey Nelson! found this video. Yes, I was one of those men who "freaked out" ha. I feel great at about 160 test/week 2 x .80 will move to 4 x .2

My Total test was 1028 and my Estradiol came back at 48.4 pg/ml (7.6 to 42.6 pg/ml)
1028 x .04 = 41.2 pg/ml

 

[Nelson Vergel]

High Estradiol in Men: Myths and Realities

Discover the dangers of high estradiol in men and learn how to identify when levels are too high. Explore more on our blog at DiscountedLabs.com

www.discountedlabs.com

 

[ecdysone]

I plotted out to exactly as predicted!
Been pretty much absent on here for many years, but Nelson and his diligent research has been invaluable!
Thank you.