How to Predict Estradiol and DHT at Different Testosterone Doses

I was able to come up with a table using the predictive model equation derived from data in this study:

The Effects of Injected Testosterone Dose and Age on the Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone in Young and Older Men

Summary​

This video discusses a research paper that explores the effects of different testosterone doses on estradiol and DHT levels in men. The study involved young and older men receiving weekly injections of testosterone for five months. The researchers measured estradiol and DHT blood levels and analyzed the data.

Highlights​

• The study examined the impact of various testosterone doses on estradiol and DHT levels in men.
• The research involved young and older men who received testosterone injections for five months.
• The study measured estradiol and DHT blood levels to understand the effects of testosterone doses.
• The researchers used a mathematical model to predict estradiol and DHT levels based on testosterone doses.
• The findings showed that estradiol levels increased with higher testosterone doses, especially in older men.
• DHT levels also increased with testosterone doses but not as significantly as estradiol.
• The study suggests that testosterone replacement therapy may require individualized monitoring of estradiol and DHT levels.

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The graphs shown in the study (They injected several doses of testosterone enanthate in young and older men) show sensitive estradiol and DHT at different total testosterone blood levels. The curves reach a pseudo plateau at higher TT levels. Older men tended to produce more estradiol and DHT than younger men.

The equation I used was based on a mathematical model shown in this study that included variables calculated from Michaelis-Menten kinetics.

For older men:

E2 (regular immunoassay- not sensitive)= 138.3xTT/(1470.1+TT)

DHT = 269.4xTT/(2389.6+TT)

TT= Total Testosterone

Here is the table I came up with for older men

Of course, as you can see from the graphs above, there is a lot of variability in values, so these predicted numbers are just representing the curve.

Since these estradiol values were immunoassay-based, sensitive (LC/MS) values would be lower. How much lower? We don't know since CRP values were not measured. I would multiply the estradiol numbers in the above table by 0.80 to arrive at a guess for sensitive estradiol values.


These were the baseline characteristics of both groups before they received testosterone enanthate injections. Both groups seemed relatively lean to me.

Treatment protocol:

MAIN MESSAGE: ESTRADIOL AND DHT "NORMAL RANGES" SHOWN BY LABCORP OR QUEST ARE DERIVED FROM MEN WHO DO NOT HAVE HIGH TESTOSTERONE. MANY MEN ON TRT USUALLY HAVE "HIGHER" TESTOSTERONE THAN "NORMAL", SO THOSE RANGES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM. STOP OBSESSING!

 

Thanks @ecdysone

 

Guys, my last test came back at 1169 and my ultra-sensitive estradiol came back at 66. Would any of you be concerned?

 

Guys, my last test came back at 1169 and my ultra-sensitive estradiol came back at 66. Would any of you be concerned?

how u feeling mood and energy wise? How’s libido and erections?

 

how u feeling mood and energy wise? How’s libido and erections?

I feel great! Getting great results with putting on muscle and losing fat - I'm hard when I need to be and waking up with morning wood. I just don't want GYNO!!!!

 

I feel great! Getting great results with putting on muscle and losing fat - I'm hard when I need to be and waking up with morning wood. I just don't want GYNO!!!!

I wouldn’t worry about gyno at all. U’ll know if u have to worry about it. When I was using HCG monotherapy I started to develop some gyno in my left nipple. I’m assuming it was mostly due to the increase in prolactin and/ or progesterone tho, because I’ve had my E2 way higher on TRT, and never had any issues with gyno. Before the gyno started to form on HCG mono, my nipples were constantly itchy and sensitive for weeks and weeks. They were so itchy and sensitive that I had to put tape over them so they wouldn’t rub up against my shirt. I would scratch them to the point they would start to bleed a little bit. On testosterone I’ll get random nipple sensitivity for a day or two during hormone fluctuations, but nothing even remotely close to what I experienced on HCG mono prior to getting gyno. I now can recognize the difference between hormone fluctuation nipple sensitivity and gyno forming nipple sensitivity. So unless ur nipples end up being itchy and sensitive for weeks on end, I wouldn’t worry about getting gyno from an elevated E2

 

T 637
E 32
E compativel com a tabela, se reduzi-lo 20%

 

I had my last bloods done with Quest was at 1411 Total Test, Estradiol 67 ( Reference Range < 39. I am taking DIM-300 dose. This table is right on the money.

 

I wouldn’t worry about gyno at all. U’ll know if u have to worry about it. When I was using HCG monotherapy I started to develop some gyno in my left nipple. I’m assuming it was mostly due to the increase in prolactin and/ or progesterone tho, because I’ve had my E2 way higher on TRT, and never had any issues with gyno. Before the gyno started to form on HCG mono, my nipples were constantly itchy and sensitive for weeks and weeks. They were so itchy and sensitive that I had to put tape over them so they wouldn’t rub up against my shirt. I would scratch them to the point they would start to bleed a little bit. On testosterone I’ll get random nipple sensitivity for a day or two during hormone fluctuations, but nothing even remotely close to what I experienced on HCG mono prior to getting gyno. I now can recognize the difference between hormone fluctuation nipple sensitivity and gyno forming nipple sensitivity. So unless ur nipples end up being itchy and sensitive for weeks on end, I wouldn’t worry about getting gyno from an elevated E2

Could also be the ratio between androgens and e2.

 

I had my last bloods done with Quest was at 1411 Total Test, Estradiol 67 ( Reference Range < 39. I am taking DIM-300 dose. This table is right on the money.

How does one feel?

 

Could also be the ratio between androgens and e2.

Vey good point! But idk, I was controlling E2 with an ai, and test levels were around 1200 total on 2000iu’s of HCG/ week. But honestly there’s still a chance u could be right. HCG stimulates the leydig cells in the testicles to produce testosterone, and I’ve heard that HCG causes a lot of the aromatizatiin to occur within the testicles, and I’ve heard that ai’s are inneficient/ unable to control testicular aromatization, or something along those lines. So the point u brought up could definitely be valid. Good thinking

 

With 1200 total test e2 would need to be very high to have gyno for most. You may be right about prolactin. I’ve heard that prolactin is a good metric for tissue estrogen but I cannot remember the literature. Maybe I can dig it

the benefit of hcg is that there should also be a nice increase in progesterone which prevents estrogen from being stored in tissues. This is likely why hcg increases e2 more. It’s because it increases progesterone and higher progesterone means more circulating e2 vs tissue bound.

progesterone should lower prolactin over the long run.

Maybe this is why progesterone causes sexual sides for some. I’d venture to say it’s temporary and could be due to a change in how e2 is behaving in the presence of progesterone until such time the body adjusts.

 

Hi @Nelson Vergel , thanks for the video and calculation! I have watched it twice but for some reason just cant get my head around it, sorry mate. I am 29 years old fyi, what should my oestradiol be roughly with your graph?

So my serum oestradiol level is 15.23 pg/ml.
My testosterone is 527.8 ng/dl

So do I now divide the 2?

 

1 Picogram per milliliter [pg/ml] = 0.1 Nanogram per deciliter [ng/dl]

Estradiol 15.23 pg/mL= 1.523 ng/dL

Estradiol ng/dL/Total T ng/dL x 100= 1.523/527.8= 0.00288. So, you multiply 0.00288 x 100= 0.288%. You are aromatizing 0.288% of your total T into Estradiol. We have some data that shows 0.3- 0.4% of T gets aromatized to estradiol, so you are under that (assuming you are not taking anastrozole).

For a T/E2 ratio;

527.8/15.23= 34.7

The only data we have is about low fertility with low T/E2 ratios under around 14. So, you are good.

 

Any idea why my dht would be way off based on this formula ? FYI it’s twice the range with a pretty moderate tt

 

Any idea why my dht would be way off based on this formula ? FYI it’s twice the range with a pretty moderate tt

What's your DHT? It usually runs about 10% of total T.

This is the formula from the study:

DHT = 269.4xTT/(2389.6+TT)

TT= Total Testosterone

 

What's your DHT? It usually runs about 10% of total T.

This is the formula from the study:

DHT = 269.4xTT/(2389.6+TT)

TT= Total Testosterone

Using that formula my dht should be 61, I typically come in around 170. This is just on injections and hcg. When I used the gel my levels were 275

 

@Graham

You are probably one of the outliers.

 

@Graham

You are probably one of the outliers.


View attachment 17882

Interesting, should I be worried about having dht levels high like mine long term ?

 

Interesting, should I be worried about having dht levels high like mine long term ?

Not really. Enjoy it.

Read this review:

Is Dihydrotestosterone DHT Good or Bad for Men?

www.excelmale.com

 

I also have similar E levels, and my endo is also very hesitant to up my dose, and my T levels were still very high on Spyro (above the upper male limit with 100 mg/day), so I changed to cypro. I'm not the only one, and I know other people that Spyro didn't work, who knows why. I think a dose of 600-800 mg/day is overkill, I haven't seen anyone with doses higher than 400 mg, and the normal one is around 100-200 mg, so try to ask your doctor to try another blocker. I'm also on steroids, found safer alternatives for these supplements on [edited by moderator].