Would I be making a mistake?

[madman]

I've asked about clomid/Natesto...

Again, I've heard from doctors who say they do a 3month run of clomid to try and kickstart the system to producing more T - is clomid a one and one type of thing?

Same with Natesto? Are you basically on this for good if it drives T up?

Also, need to keep in mind that even when using short-acting nasal T gel (Natesto) most men fail to realize that it will take many months before you see where your T levels truly end up let alone gauge how you truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

Many jump on Natesto and expect to feel great off the hop!


*Median testosterone levels at baseline and at 1, 3, and 6 mo after therapy with Natesto TID dosing. Note that changes at 1, 3, and 6 mo are significantly increased from baseline

Fig. 2 – (A) Median testosterone levels at baseline and at 1, 3, and 6 mo after therapy with Natesto TID dosing. Note that changes at 1, 3, and 6 mo are significantly increased from baseline. (B) Median follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels at baseline and at 3 and 6 mo after therapy with Natesto TID dosing. Note that the changes in FSH and LH are decreased, but nonsignificant. (C) Median semen analysis concentration, motility, and total motile sperm count at baseline and at 3 and 6 mo after therapy with Natesto TID dosing. Changes from baseline to 3 and 6 mo are all nonsignificant. FSH = follicle-stimulating hormone; LH = luteinizing hormone; TMSC = Total motile sperm count.

 

[canadianeh]

i can only speak from own exp, but it looks to me you are a T candidate. I did not had insane low T symptoms, or so at least I thought. my T was 230ng/dl total, 8ng/dl free.
worked out regularly, hard to gain mass etc. libido average, 1-2x week sex max.
this massively changed with TRT. 2 years in, my libido is 5-6x drive/week, 4x gym a week. visible muscle gains + excellent gym recovery. Now I am on the high side T, 210mg/week, but worked myself up slowly here with my clinic, due to the way I feel and metabolize T.
I also stopped completely getting any colds since started TRT, as I got sick 3x each year.
not sure if I see what your age is, but I did not expect my TRT benefits be so good TBH.
mentally I got much more resilient with more drive and less anxiety overall.

43

 

[madman]

i can only speak from own exp, but it looks to me you are a T candidate. I did not had insane low T symptoms, or so at least I thought. my T was 230ng/dl total, 8ng/dl free.
worked out regularly, hard to gain mass etc. libido average, 1-2x week sex max.
this massively changed with TRT. 2 years in, my libido is 5-6x drive/week, 4x gym a week. visible muscle gains + excellent gym recovery. Now I am on the high side T, 210mg/week, but worked myself up slowly here with my clinic, due to the way I feel and metabolize T.
I also stopped completely getting any colds since started TRT, as I got sick 3x each year.
not sure if I see what your age is, but I did not expect my TRT benefits be so good TBH.
mentally I got much more resilient with more drive and less anxiety overall.

The most commonly used esters for TRT are TC/TE.

Therapeutic doses of such are in the 100-200 mg T/week range.

The majority of men can easily achieve a healthy/high trough FT level injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.

Most men would never need the high-end TRT dose 200 mg T/week to achieve a healthy let alone high trough FT level.

Are there outliers sure but they are far and few.

200 mg TC or TE let alone TP per week is overkill for the majority!

To put this in perspective.

210 mg TP/week is an absurd amount of active T (minus the ester).

100 mg TC = 70mg (active T)

100 mg TE = 72 mg (active T)

100 mg TP = 83 mg (active T)



We can nitpick here on the approx free equivalents but you get the point!

Again as I stated previously you left out some of the most important blood markers, RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Again as you can see due to running a high-end TT 900 ng/dL with a very low SHBG 11 nmol/L you are hitting an absurdly high FT level.

Well beyond where a healthy young male would be in his prime and this is a short-lived peak not steady-state.

Oral Testosterone vs Daily Cyp/Prop Injection

Hello all (@madman, @Cataceous, @Nelson Vergel @Systemlord ), I'm trying to figure out the benefit of Oral Testosterone Capsules (Tlando, Jatenzo, etc) vs Daily Test Cyp/Prop Injection. Does anyone have a point of view on this or data to support one or the other? Thanks in advance for your...

www.excelmale.com

 

[canadianeh]

i can only speak from own exp, but it looks to me you are a T candidate. I did not had insane low T symptoms, or so at least I thought. my T was 230ng/dl total, 8ng/dl free.
worked out regularly, hard to gain mass etc. libido average, 1-2x week sex max.
this massively changed with TRT. 2 years in, my libido is 5-6x drive/week, 4x gym a week. visible muscle gains + excellent gym recovery. Now I am on the high side T, 210mg/week, but worked myself up slowly here with my clinic, due to the way I feel and metabolize T.
I also stopped completely getting any colds since started TRT, as I got sick 3x each year.
not sure if I see what your age is, but I did not expect my TRT benefits be so good TBH.
mentally I got much more resilient with more drive and less anxiety overall.

Thanks for this... This does sound more familiar. I have zero libido issues AFAIK and could easily go 5-6X/week... probably daily! The rest resonates!

 

[canadianeh]

Again as I stated previously you left out some of the most important blood markers, RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Sorry, what are the markers and what would you be looking for? See attached

 

[madman]

Sorry, what are the markers and what would you be looking for? See attached

*Again as I stated previously you left out some of the most important blood markers, RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit


This was from my reply (post #43) to t_spacemonkey

He needs to throw ferritin/iron in there too.

He never posted labs with these critical blood markers!

Most men running too high FT level are struggling with elevated hematocrit.

Many end up jumping on that donating let alone too frequently bandwagon to manage it and end up carshing their ferritin which can open up another can of worms.

 

[canadianeh]

*Again as I stated previously you left out some of the most important blood markers, RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit


This was from my reply (post #43) to t_spacemonkey

He needs to throw ferritin/iron in there too.

He never posted labs with these critical blood markers!

Most men running too high FT level are struggling with elevated hematocrit.

Many end up jumping on that donating let alone too frequently bandwagon to manage it and end up carshing their ferritin which can open up another can of worms.

You see my levels there for most things - anything jump out?

LH low?

 

[madman]

You see my levels there for most things - anything jump out?

LH low?

Your hematocrit is on the lower end of the reference range but I see no issue unless your ferritin/iron was low.

MCHC is slightly elevated.

Ferritin level is decent but many would consider 100-150 (ng/mL) optimal.

Your LH is still normal but closer to the lower end.

As I stated in one of my previous replies your TT 350-375 ng/dL is not so stellar and more importantly your FT level is on the lower end which is well below where a healthy young male would sit.

My natty TT was in the low 300s and more importantly low FT to boot.

SHBG was 34 nmol/L pre-trt and 30-32 post-TRT.

Barely budged and I run a higher-end TT/FT level!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I don’t have many typical low T symptoms. Good / strong libido, regular workouts (heavy lifting compound movement strength workouts with some HIIT twice per week in there 4-5 times a week), strong deadlift/squat/bench, full head of hair. Sleep is okay but often disrupted by bathroom trips.

I would not mess with TRT. It's not worth it if you feel like you described above.

 

[madman]

You see my levels there for most things - anything jump out?

LH low?

canadianeh said:
I don’t have many typical low T symptoms. Good / strong libido, regular workouts (heavy lifting compound movement strength workouts with some HIIT twice per week in there 4-5 times a week), strong deadlift/squat/bench, full head of hair. Sleep is okay but often disrupted by bathroom trips.


Nelson is kicking some sense your way.

*I would not mess with TRT. It's not worth it if you feel like you described above.



Keep in mind that although my pre-TRT TT and FT levels were lower than yours I had all of the low-T symptoms and more importantly no libido, and lack of nocturnal and spontaneous erections.

It was a no-brainer for me and I had nothing to lose when it came to the libido department as mine was next to non-existent!

You also mention that your BF runs around 18-22% which is a fair amount and you definitely have room to bring this down through a strict nutrition/exercise regimen.

Even if you decide to pursue TRT you are most likely going to be a high aromatizer.

If anything your best bet would be trialing the nasal T gel (Natesto) as it may give you the boost in T you are looking for.

May even help with improving your body composition.




As I stated in a previous reply:


Now for the tricky part which is that you stated you lack many of the low T symptoms.

More importantly, you have a strong libido and hopefully erectile function.

Hard to say how you would fair on TRT as it is not so cut and dry.

For some men it can do wonders as in life-changing in many ways, for others they will be better off than before but have nothing to brag about, many may end up struggling with ups/downs for years to come and some will be far worse off.

No point in getting caught up on this as you need to decide what is best for you.

I understand you are on the fence here when it comes to libido let alone testicular atrophy.

Again no one can say where your libido will end up on TRT as it could stay the same, be better or lousy, and worst-case scenario non-existent.

Too many factors are involved especially when it comes to libido/erectile function as they are multi-factorial.

As for testicular shrinkage, this can easily be prevented/minimized with the use of hCG.

To be honest in your situation if you want to kill 2 birds with one stone while at the same time getting a taste of having higher T levels then your best would be trialing the nasal T gel (Natesto) which many of the endos/uros in Canada love to prescribe due to it being the least suppressive when it comes to the hpta let alone would allow one to maintain fertility, prevent/minimize testicular shrinkage and top it off will have the least impact on experiencing side-effects especially when it comes to elevated hematocrit.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

The most commonly used esters for TRT are TC/TE.

Therapeutic doses of such are in the 100-200 mg T/week range.

The majority of men can easily achieve a healthy/high trough FT level injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.

Most men would never need the high-end TRT dose 200 mg T/week to achieve a healthy let alone high trough FT level.

Are there outliers sure but they are far and few.

200 mg TC or TE let alone TP per week is overkill for the majority!

To put this in perspective.

210 mg TP/week is an absurd amount of active T (minus the ester).

100 mg TC = 70mg (active T)

100 mg TE = 72 mg (active T)

100 mg TP = 83 mg (active T)



We can nitpick here on the approx free equivalents but you get the point!
View attachment 38090

Again as I stated previously you left out some of the most important blood markers, RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Again as you can see due to running a high-end TT 900 ng/dL with a very low SHBG 11 nmol/L you are hitting an absurdly high FT level.

Well beyond where a healthy young male would be in his prime and this is a short-lived peak not steady-state.

Oral Testosterone vs Daily Cyp/Prop Injection

Hello all (@madman, @Cataceous, @Nelson Vergel @Systemlord ), I'm trying to figure out the benefit of Oral Testosterone Capsules (Tlando, Jatenzo, etc) vs Daily Test Cyp/Prop Injection. Does anyone have a point of view on this or data to support one or the other? Thanks in advance for your...

www.excelmale.com

hemoglobin 17.5
rbc 5.87
htc 52

total t 754
free T direct, 22.6

this is before my daily 30mg Tprop injection
everything else is perfect

 

[madman]

hemoglobin 17.5
rbc 5.87
htc 52

total t 754
free T direct, 22.6

this is before my daily 30mg Tprop injection
everything else is perfect

8 days ago you already stated you were hitting a trough TT 900 and FT 30 ng/dL with low SHBG 11 nmol/L.

Different than what you just posted.

Your hematocrit is high.

Still missing ferritin/iron.

Oral Testosterone vs Daily Cyp/Prop Injection

Hello all (@madman, @Cataceous, @Nelson Vergel @Systemlord ), I'm trying to figure out the benefit of Oral Testosterone Capsules (Tlando, Jatenzo, etc) vs Daily Test Cyp/Prop Injection. Does anyone have a point of view on this or data to support one or the other? Thanks in advance for your...

www.excelmale.com

Again your trough FT 30 ng/dL is absurdly high.

Seems as though you are one of those caught up on that donating too frequently merry-go-round to control your elevated hematocrit.

Again where does your ferritin/iron sit?

Donating blood question

When donating blood to the Red Cross, am I required to tell them I am on HCG & T? What happens if I don’t?

www.excelmale.com

should I go to 200mg/week?

total T: 754 ng/dl free t: 22.6 pg/ml SHBG: 11.4 nmol/L E Sensitive: 43.9 rest is fine, HCT creeps up a bit /donating my protocol is mo/wed/fr 60mg(0.3ml) - total 180mg now per week. blood draw was taken wed before injection. overall I feel ok. no high E2 symptoms. maybe a bit revved up, but...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

hemoglobin 17.5
rbc 5.87
htc 52

total t 754
free T direct, 22.6

this is before my daily 30mg Tprop injection
everything else is perfect

These labs you posted for TT/FT are from when you were injecting 180 mg T/week.

“High-Normal T”

I would take that bet. There are many posts on here in which Defy newcomers describe starting with doses well over 100 mg/week. What is the justification for supraphysiological dosing right from the start—when it's widely believed that titrating downwards is more difficult than titrating...

www.excelmale.com

HCG / anxiety / e2 / AI

hey, I did some forum search and found couple threads about this. so about 2-3 weeks ago, in addition to my 200mg/cyp/week(3x), I've added HCG at 0.5ml 3x Week things were fine, and i did notice some improvement in sex + overall sensitivity then couple days ago i started having pretty bad...

www.excelmale.com

 

[t_spacemonkey]

These labs you posted for TT/FT are from when you were injecting 180 mg T/week.

“High-Normal T”

I would take that bet. There are many posts on here in which Defy newcomers describe starting with doses well over 100 mg/week. What is the justification for supraphysiological dosing right from the start—when it's widely believed that titrating downwards is more difficult than titrating...

www.excelmale.com

View attachment 38098

HCG / anxiety / e2 / AI

hey, I did some forum search and found couple threads about this. so about 2-3 weeks ago, in addition to my 200mg/cyp/week(3x), I've added HCG at 0.5ml 3x Week things were fine, and i did notice some improvement in sex + overall sensitivity then couple days ago i started having pretty bad...

www.excelmale.com

View attachment 38099

ferritin 73
definitely got down with donations

my htc was bad onb120mg t cyp as well
youbare right, my last T readings were on a lower protocol. i need to get new lab work

 

[canadianeh]

I talked to the clinic that wants to give me TRT today. I do really like the practitioner. She understands my concerns. She reviewed my file again and agreed I'm at the lower end, but still normal and would suggest watching for symptoms. She certainly wasnt pushing me to start if not comfortable.

She suggested HCG Monotherapy which she said does not suppress natural HPTA, but that doesnt seem to be true from what I'm read.

I asked about Natesto but she didnt know a ton about it or if she could prescribe it. I know my normal doctor would likely not prescribe it as he thinks all Testosterone discussions are a bit silly. I had shown him my bloods but he just kinda chuckled and said I was fine.

 

[Systemlord]

She suggested HCG Monotherapy which she said does not suppress natural HPTA

This is false, hCG does suppress the HPTA, because you’re replacing LH with an LH analog which mimics LH.

I know my normal doctor would likely not prescribe it as he thinks all Testosterone discussions are a bit silly.

I think it’s silly for a doctor to take the position, as if, testosterone has no biological function at all inside the body and it’s a completely unnecessary hormone.

 

[canadianeh]

This is false, hCG does suppress the HPTA, because you’re replacing LH with an LH analog which mimics LH.

I think it’s silly for a doctor to have such an opinion about an area of medicine for which he clearly knows nothing about.

Yes thank you.
I have read this as well.

And yes, I agree. He’s my family doctor. Showed him the tests over 18 months and he told me to stop listening to so many podcasts

 

[EmeraldCoast]

You didn't mention your age?

Genetics should be considered before assuming anyone is deficient in testosterone. Some men have lower T levels, but higher genetic and receptor sensitivity. In short, that means they are perfectly functional at a level that is on the low end of the scale.

Once you start chasing numbers, you begin the journey that many have regretted. Symptoms should be your only measurement to consider. You say you're fine, good libido, strong workouts etc... My sincere advice is to stop worrying about your T levels based on a number and enjoy what you have. If at some point you begin to feel the symptoms that could possibly be low testosterone related, then give it a try. I would start with gel however as it is easy to use, short lived, no injections.

TRT is a blessing for those who need it, and a curse for those who don't.

I have been on TRT for over 20 years. If I could go back to my younger self, I would have told him to hold off a bit longer before diving in.

What age did you start TRT?

 

[BadassBlues]

What age did you start TRT?

45