What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

[tareload]

wish this shit didn’t get so tribal.

Do you see shit getting tribal with Saya or Nelson or any other professional medical provider? Is there any precedent for an MD to come online under a handle and attack dudes who ask perfectly valid questions. Make fun of them, call them little boys and pussies? Tell them they aren't man enough to take enough T?

Seems like a personality disorder to me. And I am educated enough to see the issue with the other tribe's scientific approach. The practical issue? Bad faith on the TOT tribe's part. And all Jay can do is laugh like an airhead.

700 ng/dl TT and 20 ng/dl TT? I don't see any major concern but you would need to provide more details. Peak/mean/trough?

Unfortunately I am guilty just like with Danny. I despise bullies who put peoples health at risk. And I have taken the ambulance ride. No fun.


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Mark Twain


Best regards.

 

[tareload]

@RobRoy Great idea for next podcast with Jay...read him this and you all discuss:

"Cargo Cult Science" - by Richard Feynman

sites.cs.ucsb.edu

But this long history of learning how to not fool ourselves--of having utter scientific integrity--is, I'm sorry to say, something that we haven't specifically included in any particular course that I know of. We just hope you've caught on by osmosis

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.

I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen.

Get his critical feedback and reaction.

Then switch to your new handle...JimJones.

Glad I am getting to live at least partially rent free in your head. Repent from your narcissistic overconfidence.

 

[Charliebizz]

Do you see shit getting tribal with Saya or Nelson or any other professional medical provider? Is there any precedent for an MD to come online under a handle and attack dudes who ask perfectly valid questions. Make fun of them, call them little boys and pussies? Tell them they aren't man enough to take enough T?

Seems like a personality disorder to me. And I am educated enough to see the issue with the other tribe's scientific approach. The practical issue? Bad faith on the TOT tribe's part. And all Jay can do is laugh like an airhead.

700 ng/dl TT and 20 ng/dl TT? I don't see any major concern but you would need to provide more details. Peak/mean/trough?

Unfortunately I am guilty just like with Danny. I despise bullies who put peoples health at risk. And I have taken the ambulance ride.


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Mark Twain


Best regards.

I meant the whole ”trt” space gets tribal. and a good portion of it comes from anecdote and speculation. that’s when I really can’t stand it. But I feel like this debate with you and @RobRoy is fantastic. i do agree he could be much more professional though.

 

[aneuman]

do people really listen to this? No wonder...

 

[Charliebizz]

do people really listen to this? No wonder...

To be fair jay has had/have a positive influence over the trt space for many years. And for me personally the influence keith has had over the forums and groups in regards to the cream has been a game changer for a bunch of long term trt strugglers like myself. I haven’t listened to many of the podcasts. But this one sparked my interest from this very thread and @readalot bringing up the traverse study.

 

[Charliebizz]

I'd guess his simple answer is they're woke pussies if they can't handle thicker blood. If you get whiney about headaches, fatigue, shortness of breath and etc with a hematocrit of 54+ then leave TRT to the real men among us.

I do not like the ”matter of fact” tone he always speaks in. Everyone is different. I’ve had an issue that was dismissed by so many people over the years. And frankly I can’t even explain why it would happen either. But I cannot tolerate test cypionate one bit. I had all sorts of issues. Racing heart, anxiety, pounding beats in my ears, dropped my cortisol significantly in labs. And many other things. I ran labs and tried it out a few times over the years and like clock work same shit happened. On enanthate I’m fine. Same carrier oil and perservatives. My point is everyone is different. I know people that get zero sides from that high hematocrit and others that do.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

My intentions By posting that wasn’t to fan the flames. I just truly enjoy the discussion. I wish it could be a little more civil. And I wish @RobRoy wouldnt come in hot then bail out for days in end but I guess he’s a little “busy”. one question was raised in another podcast he was on on The topic of hematocrit, why do some feel better after donating blood. He kind of glossed over it I would like to know his true answer or opinion.

So who the heck is ROBROY? Is he one of these guys on the pod cast? Obviously what we all post here on this board gets seen.

Why didn't they invite @readalot to be on this pod cast.

Anyway, I may be one of the few here but I actually agree with much of what these two doctors said about this study and the state of human wellness levels. I teach this stuff every day and its falling on deaf ears. I also agree with their stance on the AMA and the CDC. I also agree with their stance on self-discipline and work ethics. My wife and I go to the grocery store and are just amazed at what I call WEEBLES all over the store, fat woman that all look the same WEEBLES WOBBLE BUT THEY CAN'T FALL DOWN. Huge asses, huge legs and short fat arms. Their kids looks the same and you can tell they got that way by what is in their basket. They drag themselves around the grocery store with NO energy and can hardly pick up their own feet. Its honestly pathetic. We see this same thing every where we go. And people look at us like we are odd balls. I GUESS WE ARE! We actually spend hours a day caring about what we look like. I agree this study was a huge production over nothing. We have literally tons of research showing the benefits of TRT to men and women. The amounts of testosterone they used was so low, its little wonder 60% dropped out. Why bother. I got on TRT because I was at the levels these guys used testosterone to be at. Hell, I would quit too. I felt like crap at 350. I certainly agree with the attack on masculinity but they started going too political after that, all fo which I agree with but don't need my beliefs reinforced.

OK, I'm not sure what to think about this woke stuff. Me woke? Me a pussy, the guy who gives himself intra-articular injections. Hardly. I had HCT in the 59 range and sure wasn't so happy when I did a blood dumb and the machine shut down 10-12 times try8int to get my blood out. That obviously wasn't so healthy. But as far as headaches, fatigue etc. Never had any. Nothing compared to the 4iu of hGH I am doing every day. I feel like a zombie and don't want to do anything but sleep.

 

[tareload]

Anyway, I may be one of the few here but I actually agree with much of what these two doctors said about this study and the state of human wellness levels.

See above. Agreed.

Too bad as I agree on many on the points around diet, training, stoicism, etc. Unfortunately @RobRoy reminds me of one of my project partners in undergrad. I refused to let him assist on the project and sent him off while I did the work. We all got an "A" of course.

That is common ground but where it stops.

 

[tareload]

Hardly. I had HCT in the 59 range and sure wasn't so happy when I did a blood dumb and the machine shut down 10-12 times

You were not getting your Hct high enough you woke pussy. Machine was probably made by some woke pussies who had been cucked in France or some sh*t. /s

Translating to TOT RobRoy language.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Again, this podcast could have been better if they had @readalot as the 3rd speaker. Seriously! If Musk can fight ZUC then this podcast can happen too.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

You were not getting your Hct high enough you woke pussy. Machine was probably made by some woke pussies who had been cucked in France or some sh*t. /s

Translating to TOT RobRoy language.

But WHO is ROBROY? No one took me up on WhatsApp.

 

[tareload]

But WHO is ROBROY? No one took me up on WhatsApp.

I shared that here...

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

OK, so this is you? We have something in common, powerlifting. I spent 27 years of my life competing was well know in the game. Nah, he always likes to claim this chap is me for some reason.

www.excelmale.com

See link in attached thread.

Or see here.

Should We Be Managing Estradiol and Hematocrit in Men on Testosterone Replacement?

Dr. Nichols, so glad you joined, welcome to the EM community! You have noted the importance of optimizing one's Free T3 serum levels as part of an effective HRT protocol. I concur wholeheartedly with that, and I think too many physicians and patients tend to overlook the importance of how...

www.excelmale.com

Author of this thread is my opinion based on many pieces of data.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

OK, I am really getting confused now. It is Danny Bossa? or J. Keith Nichols MD

Danny Bossa has left the building

Anyone that follows the TRT gurusphere knows Danny Bossa. I actually found this forum through the one sided battles he had with @readalot on the t-nation forums where @readalot basically forced Danny to mentally unravel and get banned from t-nation. I thought, “holy shit where does this guy...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

Again, this podcast could have been better if they had @readalot as the 3rd speaker. Seriously! If Musk can fight ZUC then this podcast can happen too.

I'll take the Pixelator and voice synth LMAO:

I think first they should easily be able to destroy my statistics analysis above since I read a lot but knoweth little as our hero RobRoy likes to say.

Too bad we can't all be supportive but I will pass with a malignant narcissist and his very average IQ sidekick with way above average confidence. The ridicule Dr. Rob showed dropped my opinion of him as well.

 

[tareload]

OK, I am really getting confused now. It is Danny Bossa? or J. Keith Nichols MD

Danny Bossa has left the building

Anyone that follows the TRT gurusphere knows Danny Bossa. I actually found this forum through the one sided battles he had with @readalot on the t-nation forums where @readalot basically forced Danny to mentally unravel and get banned from t-nation. I thought, “holy shit where does this guy...

www.excelmale.com

Hint...Danny was not on the podcast in question. RobRoy was.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Platz sure didn't hide Ronnie Coleman's identity very well.

 

[Charliebizz]

So who the heck is ROBROY? Is he one of these guys on the pod cast? Obviously what we all post here on this board gets seen.

Why didn't they invite @readalot to be on this pod cast.

Anyway, I may be one of the few here but I actually agree with much of what these two doctors said about this study and the state of human wellness levels. I teach this stuff every day and its falling on deaf ears. I also agree with their stance on the AMA and the CDC. I also agree with their stance on self-discipline and work ethics. My wife and I go to the grocery store and are just amazed at what I call WEEBLES all over the store, fat woman that all look the same WEEBLES WOBBLE BUT THEY CAN'T FALL DOWN. Huge asses, huge legs and short fat arms. Their kids looks the same and you can tell they got that way by what is in their basket. They drag themselves around the grocery store with NO energy and can hardly pick up their own feet. Its honestly pathetic. We see this same thing every where we go. And people look at us like we are odd balls. I GUESS WE ARE! We actually spend hours a day caring about what we look like. I agree this study was a huge production over nothing. We have literally tons of research showing the benefits of TRT to men and women. The amounts of testosterone they used was so low, its little wonder 60% dropped out. Why bother. I got on TRT because I was at the levels these guys used testosterone to be at. Hell, I would quit too. I felt like crap at 350. I certainly agree with the attack on masculinity but they started going too political after that, all fo which I agree with but don't need my beliefs reinforced.

OK, I'm not sure what to think about this woke stuff. Me woke? Me a pussy, the guy who gives himself intra-articular injections. Hardly. I had HCT in the 59 range and sure wasn't so happy when I did a blood dumb and the machine shut down 10-12 times try8int to get my blood out. That obviously wasn't so healthy. But as far as headaches, fatigue etc. Never had any. Nothing compared to the 4iu of hGH I am doing every day. I feel like a zombie and don't want to do anything but sleep.

I also agree with a lot of what they say. i Didn’t make it through the whole podcast. Just the part about the traverse study. One thing I will say is my years being on the forums, it does seem that the guys that seem to do the best are using pretty basic protocols and running at top of range or higher. I spent most of my time on trt near midrange 400-500 trough. i didn’t feel great. now running my numbers a little higher and on cream I’m doing much better.

 

[Charliebizz]

Do you see shit getting tribal with Saya or Nelson or any other professional medical provider? Is there any precedent for an MD to come online under a handle and attack dudes who ask perfectly valid questions. Make fun of them, call them little boys and pussies? Tell them they aren't man enough to take enough T?

Seems like a personality disorder to me. And I am educated enough to see the issue with the other tribe's scientific approach. The practical issue? Bad faith on the TOT tribe's part. And all Jay can do is laugh like an airhead.

700 ng/dl TT and 20 ng/dl TT? I don't see any major concern but you would need to provide more details. Peak/mean/trough?

Unfortunately I am guilty just like with Danny. I despise bullies who put peoples health at risk. And I have taken the ambulance ride. No fun.


"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Mark Twain


Best regards.

The 700 tt and 20 ft was tested 5 hours after my morning application of two clicks. I was also doing one evening click. now I’m doing 3 a.m one pm and feel much better.

 

[Mastodont]

I also agree with a lot of what they say. i Didn’t make it through the whole podcast. Just the part about the traverse study. One thing I will say is my years being on the forums, it does seem that the guys that seem to do the best are using pretty basic protocols and running at top of range or higher. I spent most of my time on trt near midrange 400-500 trough. i didn’t feel great. now running my numbers a little higher and on cream I’m doing much better.

There are loads of guys i know that have been doing 250mg sustanon or enanthate once every 7-10days for a decade or two, no use trying to tell them how microdosing is better or that the dose is supraphysiological, as they have no issues, even though some probably have high hematocrit, some do not at all, seen the labs. It's hard to say TOT guys are all wrong on that low dose trt fails often.

 

[Belekas]

There are loads of guys i know that have been doing 250mg sustanon or enanthate once every 7-10days for a decade or two, no use trying to tell them how microdosing is better or that the dose is supraphysiological, as they have no issues, even though some probably have high hematocrit, some do not at all, seen the labs. It's hard to say TOT guys are all wrong on that low dose trt fails often.

I have used 250mg Test-E injected once a week for many years as well back in the day and know plenty as well who use exact same dose for decades. I'm from Eastern Europe and my first even steroid I've tried was Sustanon250 when I was 15 as this was all we had back then with some Russian Methandrostenolone ofc. Even though I did it for a month or so I blew up like a balloon. Fun memories for sure, although not health, innit. So back to the topic most guys I know that run 250mg/week DGAF about nothing. Same was I. I get a headache- I pop some pills, smoke some weed. Doesn't work, pop some more pills and so on and so forth. Till I got older started measuring my BP, paying attention to my symptoms, noticing patterns, reading, researching. My BP was in the 140s if I remember correctly in the mornings, spiked during the day a lot more. Headaches every week, sometimes every day. So yes, it did effect me but I was too naive to get to the root cause of it. Everything comes with time as we get older and shit starts hitting the fan. It's all good if you can run 250mg/week and you get 0 side effects, but like with all the blood tests- this is just a snapshot in time. My old mate is still running 250mg/week, pins once a week, sometimes forgets, pins it once a month and he find no difference to how he feels and performs. Ofc he runs more compounds like GH and probably peptides, I'm not sure, but thats that. To him 140/90 is a perfectly healthy BP as he says and hes a big dude 120-130kg FWIW.