What is the Lowest Dose Protocol That You Find Works Long Term?

[Vman]

I’ve narrowed down the issue to elevated heart rate and sleep quality. The 2 are interconnected and when my resting heart rate climbs from a normal of 77 to anything over 83, my sleep quality goes in the crapper. Yesterday I skipped an injection and last night I slept like a baby for the first time in a while.

Have you tried magnesium glycinate and melatonin for the sleep issues?

 

[xqfq]

Based on your TT and SHBG, your free T is 37.59 ng/dL using the tru-t.org calculator. The "theraputic range" is 16-31 ng/dl, so you may have room to lower your dosage and/or injection frequency to see the effect. Testosterone affects the sympathetic nervous system, so it makes sense some heart rate increase could happen.

Many men seem to report problems with sleep on TRT. Some men find a small amount of progesterone cream helps with sleep issues. Have you tried that? Progesterone produces neurosteroids that help calm us, which I imagine are important for sleep.

 

[Hammer]

I'm close to giving up.

In my continued quest to get "dialed in" over my 4+ years on TRT, I'm finally down to few final options before I throw in the towel

Through trial and error over time I've found that HCG, AI, and other supplements that docs have put me on make me feel horrible, and higher doses of Test Cyp (140 mg a week split in 2 doses) causes my hematocrit to rise to levels that causes concern for my doc, elevated heart rates, and causes sleep issues.

I'm trying Test Cyp doses of 120 mg a week split in 2, and that seems to keep the hematocrit from rising, but I still get elevated heart rates and also sleep issues.

I've been trying my altered protocols after clearing my system for 1-2 weeks and find that my issues develop after a 1.5 to 2 weeks. Is this because I need to let my levels stabilize first?

Anyone happy on doses below 120 mg a week? At this point I think that is all I have left to try.

The sleeping issues may well be due to the thyroid medication. I have been battling insomnia ever since starting on levothyroxin. I just recently , after 10 years, decided to lower my dosage from 200mcg daily to 175mcg and adding a half tab once per week. I also lowered my testosterone cypianate to 60mg/wk. My sleep has significantly improved albiet not perfect but definitely better! By the way, my TSH went from 1.5 to 3. I have noticed much longer recovery time from lifting weights however. As previously mentioned , T went from 1000+ range to 750.

 

[Novaman]

Thanks for the responses. I was only able to try the lyothyronine for a week. It messed me up big time.

As far as other things I've tried, yes I will use melatonin sometimes. I've tried Magnesium Glyconate and it made me groggy all day. My sleep issue on TRT is not falling asleep, it is being able to go back to sleep when I wake up at night, and waking up not feeling rested.

Before I throw in the towel I'm going to try lowering my dose to 50 mg Test Cyp 2x a week, and revisit the AI (I read somewhere that elevated E2 can effect heart rates)

 

[Novaman]

Based on your TT and SHBG, your free T is 37.59 ng/dL using the tru-t.org calculator. The "theraputic range" is 16-31 ng/dl, so you may have room to lower your dosage and/or injection frequency to see the effect. Testosterone affects the sympathetic nervous system, so it makes sense some heart rate increase could happen.

Many men seem to report problems with sleep on TRT. Some men find a small amount of progesterone cream helps with sleep issues. Have you tried that? Progesterone produces neurosteroids that help calm us, which I imagine are important for sleep.

Thanks. I might have to look into this progesterone cream

 

[Vman]

As far as other things I've tried, yes I will use melatonin sometimes. I've tried Magnesium Glyconate and it made me groggy all day. My sleep issue on TRT is not falling asleep, it is being able to go back to sleep when I wake up at night, and waking up not feeling rested.

Before I throw in the towel I'm going to try lowering my dose to 50 mg Test Cyp 2x a week, and revisit the AI (I read somewhere that elevated E2 can effect heart rates)

My issue is staying asleep as well. Have you tried the extended release melatonin? My doc has me taking 10mg of Nature's Bounty extended release melatonin. It's half instant, half over several hours. I get 6-6.5 hours of sleep consistently. Sometimes I wake once but I am able to go right back to sleep. On regular melatonin I was getting 4-4.5 hours of sleep. I'd still like more sleep, but this is a drastic improvement over the 2-2.5 hours I was getting without melatonin.

 

[Cataceous]

... I was only able to try the lyothyronine for a week. It messed me up big time.
...

Did you start with 5 mcg taken in the mornings? I had upper-range reverse T3 like yours and I found the liothyronine to be helpful.

 

[Larry P]

I am on a very low dose of Cypionate. 40mg every five days. I respond to low doses very well. My last labs taken seven days ago from Quest have TT at 844ng/dl and FT at 9.47 ng/dl and estradiol at 10 using the ultra sensitive test. I feel good. Using the TruT my FT is 28.04ng/dl. Perhaps your dose is too high.

 

[trt123]

I'm close to giving up.

In my continued quest to get "dialed in" over my 4+ years on TRT, I'm finally down to few final options before I throw in the towel

Through trial and error over time I've found that HCG, AI, and other supplements that docs have put me on make me feel horrible, and higher doses of Test Cyp (140 mg a week split in 2 doses) causes my hematocrit to rise to levels that causes concern for my doc, elevated heart rates, and causes sleep issues.

I'm trying Test Cyp doses of 120 mg a week split in 2, and that seems to keep the hematocrit from rising, but I still get elevated heart rates and also sleep issues.

I've been trying my altered protocols after clearing my system for 1-2 weeks and find that my issues develop after a 1.5 to 2 weeks. Is this because I need to let my levels stabilize first?

Anyone happy on doses below 120 mg a week? At this point I think that is all I have left to try.

20mg Test Cyp + 150IU HCG + 0.2mg anastrozole every other day puts me at ~800 total T and has me feeling great. What does your bloodwork say?

 

[Abuser200]

If u didnt try daily injections or twice daily scrotal cream, it would be a dumb decision to stop.

 

[Charliebizz]

I tried everything under the son injection wise and could never get dialed in. But 60-80 mg per week was the only thing that didn’t give me too many sides. At 100 mg per week I had sleep issues. Also raised my usually perfect blood pressure. I gave up a few times on trt. But now I’m on 2 pumps of androgel per day. And so far I have some minor improvements. And no real side effects. When ever I start trt I get super dry skin and burning nipples first few weeks. So you can never judge a protocol that fast when hormones are influx.

 

[John O'Connor]

Please don't take this personally, I realize so many individuals assume if a small dose improves things, than a larger dose will improve things even more. It seems to be human nature with a large number of men who discover TRT after years of suffering with low testosterone. A little logic would go a long way, and the guidelines physicians are given are no help. Usual Adult Dose for Hypogonadism - Male
IM INJECTION:
-Testosterone Enanthate and Cypionate: 50 to 400 mg IM injection every 2 to 4 weeks.

Obviously this is insane, and leads to the issues so many men have finding the correct dose. Also doctors and patients are in a hurry to give patients relief, so they start with a larger dose, and say if this is too much we will simply reduce it. This approach may work for some medications, but likely not most, and too often not for testosterone cypionate.

So Novaman, here is my advice. Start with a very low dose, and work your way up. Such as 25mg twice per week. I know you think 50mg weekly is an incredibly low dose, but I challenge you to try it, but 1st guess what your levels will be after a few weeks on this dose? 400 or 500, maybe higher? Keep a journal of how you feel, and how you are sleeping, morning wood, etc. Then slowly bump it up. to 30mg twice weekly, or 20mg 3x per week. Again check your levels after a few weeks, and keep the journal going. From there continue with small increases no more than 10mg+ in total increase of weekly dose until you start having negative symptoms such as not sleeping as well or a reduction in frequency of morning wood. At that point you will have figured out your ideal dose and what dose is a little too much.

My personal experience was my doctor started me on 100mg of testosterone cypionate injected once per week. My levels were 1150. Having done lots of research primarily on this site prior to starting, I knew many individuals found their best results in the 700-900 range, so I quickly changed my protocal to 40mg twice weekly. That put me in the 650-800 range. Overtime, I adjusted that to 30mg 3x per week. I inject Sunday morning, Tuesday and Thurday evenings and my levels are consistently in the 700-900 range. I feel great, have regular morning wood. I've never needed an aromatase inhibitor. Anytime I did try to bump my dose higher I noticed a drastic reduction in morning wood occurrences, so I had all the feedback I needed to know what the right dose for me is.

To simplify my 3x per week dosing I load 3 needles on Sunday, which allows me to simply inject the Tuesday and Thursday doses quickly.

I did have a period of time were my levels plummeted (400) due to the 200mg/10ml bottle getting old (4-6 months) and being stored at room temperature in my house which often reached temps over 85 degrees in the summertime. My doctor switched me to 100mg/10ml bottles, so that I would not end up with a 6 month old bottle, and I purchased a small wine fridge, which I set on the warmest temperature, 65 degrees. Since this change I have not had issues with old testosterone not being as potent over time.

I hope all of this gives you some motivation to adjust your approach to finding the right protocal. Good luck!

 

[Charliebizz]

Please don't take this personally, I realize so many individuals assume if a small dose improves things, than a larger dose will improve things even more. It seems to be human nature with a large number of men who discover TRT after years of suffering with low testosterone. A little logic would go a long way, and the guidelines physicians are given are no help. Usual Adult Dose for Hypogonadism - Male
IM INJECTION:
-Testosterone Enanthate and Cypionate: 50 to 400 mg IM injection every 2 to 4 weeks.

Obviously this is insane, and leads to the issues so many men have finding the correct dose. Also doctors and patients are in a hurry to give patients relief, so they start with a larger dose, and say if this is too much we will simply reduce it. This approach may work for some medications, but likely not most, and too often not for testosterone cypionate.

So Novaman, here is my advice. Start with a very low dose, and work your way up. Such as 25mg twice per week. I know you think 50mg weekly is an incredibly low dose, but I challenge you to try it, but 1st guess what your levels will be after a few weeks on this dose? 400 or 500, maybe higher? Keep a journal of how you feel, and how you are sleeping, morning wood, etc. Then slowly bump it up. to 30mg twice weekly, or 20mg 3x per week. Again check your levels after a few weeks, and keep the journal going. From there continue with small increases no more than 10mg+ in total increase of weekly dose until you start having negative symptoms such as not sleeping as well or a reduction in frequency of morning wood. At that point you will have figured out your ideal dose and what dose is a little too much.

My personal experience was my doctor started me on 100mg of testosterone cypionate injected once per week. My levels were 1150. Having done lots of research primarily on this site prior to starting, I knew many individuals found their best results in the 700-900 range, so I quickly changed my protocal to 40mg twice weekly. That put me in the 650-800 range. Overtime, I adjusted that to 30mg 3x per week. I inject Sunday morning, Tuesday and Thurday evenings and my levels are consistently in the 700-900 range. I feel great, have regular morning wood. I've never needed an aromatase inhibitor. Anytime I did try to bump my dose higher I noticed a drastic reduction in morning wood occurrences, so I had all the feedback I needed to know what the right dose for me is.

To simplify my 3x per week dosing I load 3 needles on Sunday, which allows my to simply inject the Tuesday and Thursday doses quickly.

I did have a period of time were my levels plummeted (400) due to the 200mg/10ml bottle getting old (4-6 months) and being stored at room temperature in my house which often reached temps over 85 degrees in the summertime. My doctor switched me to 100mg/10ml bottles, so that I would not end up with a 6 month old bottle, and I purchase a small wine fridge, which I set on the warmest temperature, 65 degrees. Since this change I have not had issues with old testosterone not being as potent over time.

I hope all of this gives you some motivation to adjust your approach to finding the right protocal. Good luck!

thats great advice. It also comes down to expectations. Many people are look for this holy grail when they get on trt and hear story’s of 60 year old men getting on trt and now having sex 3 times a day in the gym 6 times a week. But come on man we have to be honest with ourselves. I’m on trt just to feel normal. Would feeling 20 again be great sure. But let’s not forget how different my life was when I was 20 as opposed to 37. I still lived home. I slept way more rested more and had way less stress. I had optimal hormones then. But I still Had off days it’s called life.

We are on trt to try and get our levels into normal range. But yet all I see is people posting things about beat levels to build muscle and lose fat and bang 3 times a day. Did you have that life before your t went low so why do we expect that life when we get our numbers normal.

don’t get me wrong I fell for the same shit. And it’s very appealing. But a lot of these guys on the boards belong on steroid forums not men’s health.

 

[Novaman]

Please don't take this personally, I realize so many individuals assume if a small dose improves things, than a larger dose will improve things even more. It seems to be human nature with a large number of men who discover TRT after years of suffering with low testosterone. A little logic would go a long way, and the guidelines physicians are given are no help. Usual Adult Dose for Hypogonadism - Male
IM INJECTION:
-Testosterone Enanthate and Cypionate: 50 to 400 mg IM injection every 2 to 4 weeks.

Obviously this is insane, and leads to the issues so many men have finding the correct dose. Also doctors and patients are in a hurry to give patients relief, so they start with a larger dose, and say if this is too much we will simply reduce it. This approach may work for some medications, but likely not most, and too often not for testosterone cypionate.

So Novaman, here is my advice. Start with a very low dose, and work your way up. Such as 25mg twice per week. I know you think 50mg weekly is an incredibly low dose, but I challenge you to try it, but 1st guess what your levels will be after a few weeks on this dose? 400 or 500, maybe higher? Keep a journal of how you feel, and how you are sleeping, morning wood, etc. Then slowly bump it up. to 30mg twice weekly, or 20mg 3x per week. Again check your levels after a few weeks, and keep the journal going. From there continue with small increases no more than 10mg+ in total increase of weekly dose until you start having negative symptoms such as not sleeping as well or a reduction in frequency of morning wood. At that point you will have figured out your ideal dose and what dose is a little too much.

My personal experience was my doctor started me on 100mg of testosterone cypionate injected once per week. My levels were 1150. Having done lots of research primarily on this site prior to starting, I knew many individuals found their best results in the 700-900 range, so I quickly changed my protocal to 40mg twice weekly. That put me in the 650-800 range. Overtime, I adjusted that to 30mg 3x per week. I inject Sunday morning, Tuesday and Thurday evenings and my levels are consistently in the 700-900 range. I feel great, have regular morning wood. I've never needed an aromatase inhibitor. Anytime I did try to bump my dose higher I noticed a drastic reduction in morning wood occurrences, so I had all the feedback I needed to know what the right dose for me is.

To simplify my 3x per week dosing I load 3 needles on Sunday, which allows my to simply inject the Tuesday and Thursday doses quickly.

I did have a period of time were my levels plummeted (400) due to the 200mg/10ml bottle getting old (4-6 months) and being stored at room temperature in my house which often reached temps over 85 degrees in the summertime. My doctor switched me to 100mg/10ml bottles, so that I would not end up with a 6 month old bottle, and I purchase a small wine fridge, which I set on the warmest temperature, 65 degrees. Since this change I have not had issues with old testosterone not being as potent over time.

I hope all of this gives you some motivation to adjust your approach to finding the right protocal. Good luck!

Awesome post John. Yeah I could never understand why the TRT docs insisted on starting at such high doses and titrating down rather than working up from a low dose. I also can't understand why they all throw so many meds at you at once, making it nearly impossible for you to figure out which ones are giving you the horrible side effects.

This (starting at a very low dose and gradually working up from it) is actually along the lines of what I am thinking of doing which is why I started this thread. I'm trying to see what lower doses guys are finding effective for TRT

 

[Charliebizz]

I used to worry a out not sleeping well. Waking up through the night or worrying that I tossed and turned the whole night.
I was sure it was my TRT bc it started soon after upping the dose. Felt great otherwise. Even noticed I wasn’t as tired as I thought I should be.

The problem went away. Permanently. I stopped worrying about it and wrote it off.
That’s called a psychosomatic symptom. It’s real, but only bc you believe it to be.

Worrying and thinking to solve a perceived problem caused the lack of sleep. If I react that way to other things in my life I have the same tossing and turning problem again.[/QUOTE

I used to worry a out not sleeping well. Waking up through the night or worrying that I tossed and turned the whole night.
I was sure it was my TRT bc it started soon after upping the dose. Felt great otherwise. Even noticed I wasn’t as tired as I thought I should be.

The problem went away. Permanently. I stopped worrying about it and wrote it off.
That’s called a psychosomatic symptom. It’s real, but only bc you believe it to be.

Worrying and thinking to solve a perceived problem caused the lack of sleep. If I react that way to other things in my life I have the same tossing and turning problem again.

so why didn’t you just not think about low t and you would have been cured lol

 

[M.J]

I

Thanks for the responses. I was only able to try the lyothyronine for a week. It messed me up big time.

As far as other things I've tried, yes I will use melatonin sometimes. I've tried Magnesium Glyconate and it made me groggy all day. My sleep issue on TRT is not falling asleep, it is being able to go back to sleep when I wake up at night, and waking up not feeling rested.

Before I throw in the towel I'm going to try lowering my dose to 50 mg Test Cyp 2x a week, and revisit the AI (I read somewhere that elevated E2 can effect heart rates)

I had major sleep issues and pressure was going crazy after I did many blood tests, donated one time to dial in my protocol. All that was because of low ferritin I took supplement and all good now, bottom line watch out for donations and many blood test it can crash ur ferritin and cuz sleep issues.

 

[Cataceous]

... MANY of ailments complained about here are psychosomatic. ...

Many doctors resort to this kind of explanation when they don't have the time and/or the smarts to figure out what's really wrong with their patients.

 

[John O'Connor]

I

I had major sleep issues and pressure was going crazy after I did many blood tests, donated one time to dial in my protocol. All that was because of low ferritin I took supplement and all good now, bottom line watch out for donations and many blood test it can crash ur ferritin and cuz sleep issues.

Somewhat unrelated to this post, but MJ makes a good point to be cautious donating blood too often. I also struggled with fatigue due to low iron/ferritin after donating 6 times over the course of a year in an attempt to keep my hemoglobin/hematocrit in check. When I finally convinced my doctor to order an iron panel the results were shocking how low my levels were. It took 6+ months to get my levels back to normal supplementing 325 of ferrous sulfate daily. Since then I have not donated blood, and have found as long as I'm fully hydrated prior to getting my blood drawn my hematocrit/hemoglobin levels are well within the normal ranges.

 

[John O'Connor]

joke is on the many men on this forum that don’t grasp the concept. MANY of ailments complained about here are psychosomatic. The medical studies have been concluded with brain imaging to prove the movement in activity before the symptoms and after treatment via therapy.

I’m so far along in my journey for optimal physical and mental health after 5 yrs it’s kinda mind blowing. Never would have happened if I hadn’t discovered this.

User Joe, I'm seeing you get a little grief for your psychosomatic comments. I don't think you are wrong that any individual can psychologically be their own worst enemy at times. Things like performance anxiety in the bedroom for instance can definitely be both physical and/or mental. I'm sure the same can be said for those struggling with sleep issues. It sounds like for you, and possibly many others, the issue was psychosomatic. And I believe the intention of your post was simply to help Novaman to consider something he may not have. That is truly what this forum is about. Sharing our experiences, with the hope it may help others. Also, I'm glad to hear your 5 year journey has shown dramatic improvements. Keep sharing.

With that note, let's all realize the list of struggles people can have starting TRT is long and can include sleep issues. Testosterone Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term - Drugs.com

 

[Charliebizz]

I get what your saying joe. But what happens like in my case. I knew nothing about trt and sleep issues. Until I raised my t dose and it was too high for me and I was having many issues including sleep issues. And when I reduced the dose it went away? I believe in psychosomatic issues 100%. But that doesn’t mean it’s everyone’s issue.
I know when my low t and cortisol issues started I never knew a thing about them. However when I started learning about them I payed way more attention to them and let them bother me more. But if I stopped thinking about them I wouldn’t be cured. But it made my life easier.