What is Optimal Estradiol Range for Libido/Erection

[Vonko1988]

Study link please.
Very improved readings regarding what?
Did you read the post from madman about high E2 in young men being correlated with ED, despite a good level of total T?

i will give you the study later. High levels of e2 linked to errectile disfuncion... let me think about it. My e2 is twice the range and my errection is netter than ever. So provided there is zero scientific evidence for that as well I call it bulshit.
What the studies show is rising e2 levels(not high baseline e2 levels which is different) are associated with improved cardio vascular health, decrease if body fat and improved lipid panels.
Do not quote me associative studies with obese men and high e2 baseline levels because they have zero significance. The elevated e2 there is not the cause of the issues

 

[Vonko1988]

Why are you taking mag if you feel better without it have you ever tested rbc magnesium levels ?

I do not have rbc test in my country and I try to supplement some magnesium following the guidelines of all doctors I know. For now I will stay on 200mg citrate noon time hope it does not negatively affects my sleep. If do will stop it

 

[Appassionato]

i will give you the study later. High levels of e2 linked to errectile disfuncion... let me think about it. My e2 is twice the range and my errection is netter than ever. So provided there is zero scientific evidence for that as well I call it bulshit.
What the studies show is rising e2 levels(not high baseline e2 levels which is different) are associated with improved cardio vascular health, decrease if body fat and improved lipid panels.
Do not quote me associative studies with obese men and high e2 baseline levels because they have zero significance. The elevated e2 there is not the cause of the issues

Do you know what a ratio is?
Your libido is high because your global androgens levels are high, so the T:E2 ratio is good, along with DHT:E2 ratio I suspect (but you didn't test it, so we don't know).
Once again, a body builder will tell you he feels great running a total T of 3000 at least and E2>100, with rape borderline libido.
I've been there, I know how it feels.
Would you say that is healthy on a long run?

Didn't you read what I said before? The study posted was showing ED in young men with a normal T level and a higher E2 level than normal. Hence a worse ratio.

The whole point in this never ending discussion is that these doctors are talking by absolutes, while I'm trying to tell you need to find homeostasis to function well on the long run. You don't know what's gonna happen in 5-10 years running such levels. There are no long term studies on that.

What we have though is the mortality curve in regards of serum E2 levels in men. And that's a U shaped curve.

 

[Vonko1988]

Study link please.
Very improved readings regarding what?
Did you read the post from madman about high E2 in young men being correlated with ED, despite a good level of total T?

Why do you continue to point some post to me like it is some sort of evidnece?

Here is a study of estrogen administration in men:

Low-dose estrogen supplementation improves vascular function in hypogonadal men. - PubMed - NCBI

I do not believe in any mathematical rations. I believe when doing TRT you should give testosterone as frequent as possible until the symptoms are resolved, whatever number and let the estrogen follows. Without HCG my e2 is much smaller. Fortunately I can get away with the HCG without having high e2 symptoms, but the author of the post does not use HCG

I do not believe we should be restricted by numbers, they should be just a guide. And all EVIDENCE BASED SCIENTIFIC data has built that believe in my, not just random posts or complains or whatever. I talk about experienced doctors discussing and analyzing INTERVENTIONAL STUDIES and their clinical experience.

 

[JimboTRT]

You're wasting your time @Appassionato with him.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have severe ED when my E2 is high. I've had it hit 117 with a Total T of 1100 / Free T 35 and nothing worked! ED, no libido, extreme head fog, etc. So, not everyone has great libido when letting E2 go where it wants. Another concern that should be taken very seriously is the lack of long term studies. We just do not know the long term effects of running extremely high E2. I like Dr. Saya's blood analogy - that too thick of fluid in the pipes can't be good over the long haul. That's just common sense.

So, do I want to use an AI? Absolutely not. I tried my best for four months not to use one. I've recently switched my TRT protocol to EOD to see if it will help. However, until studies can prove to me high E2 is fine, and my ED, head fog, etc. would work itself out, I have no choice. I take a very mild dose of AI (.125 mg) twice per week and I finally feel a lot better. Clearer thinking, libido / ED all much better, etc.

 

[Gman86]

You're wasting your time @Appassionato with him.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have severe ED when my E2 is high. I've had it hit 117 with a Total T of 1100 / Free T 35 and nothing worked! ED, no libido, extreme head fog, etc. So, not everyone has great libido when letting E2 go where it wants. Another concern that should be taken very seriously is the lack of long term studies. We just do not know the long term effects of running extremely high E2. I like Dr. Saya's blood analogy - that too thick of fluid in the pipes can't be good over the long haul. That's just common sense.

So, do I want to use an AI? Absolutely not. I tried my best for four months not to use one. I've recently switched my TRT protocol to EOD to see if it will help. However, until studies can prove to me high E2 is fine, and my ED, head fog, etc. would work itself out, I have no choice. I take a very mild dose of AI (.125 mg) twice per week and I finally feel a lot better. Clearer thinking, libido / ED all much better, etc.

Are you getting HRT through a clinic? Have you looked into getting prescribed a low dose DHT derivative compound, to inhibit E2 and free up some T, consequently improving your androgen to estrogen ratio?

 

[Cataceous]

...
Here is a study of estrogen administration in men:

Low-dose estrogen supplementation improves vascular function in hypogonadal men. - PubMed - NCBI
...

This study says that having estradiol < 8 pg/mL is unhealthy.

 

[Charliebizz]

You're wasting your time @Appassionato with him.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have severe ED when my E2 is high. I've had it hit 117 with a Total T of 1100 / Free T 35 and nothing worked! ED, no libido, extreme head fog, etc. So, not everyone has great libido when letting E2 go where it wants. Another concern that should be taken very seriously is the lack of long term studies. We just do not know the long term effects of running extremely high E2. I like Dr. Saya's blood analogy - that too thick of fluid in the pipes can't be good over the long haul. That's just common sense.

So, do I want to use an AI? Absolutely not. I tried my best for four months not to use one. I've recently switched my TRT protocol to EOD to see if it will help. However, until studies can prove to me high E2 is fine, and my ED, head fog, etc. would work itself out, I have no choice. I take a very mild dose of AI (.125 mg) twice per week and I finally feel a lot better. Clearer thinking, libido / ED all much better, etc.

but what if you have higher
Blood values from trt but your blood pressure is still good then is it actually detrimental? Like pressure is pressure. 2500psi of water in a hydraulic line would cause the same stress as 2500psi of oil ?

 

[Appassionato]

Why do you continue to point some post to me like it is some sort of evidnece?

Here is a study of estrogen administration in men:

Low-dose estrogen supplementation improves vascular function in hypogonadal men. - PubMed - NCBI

I do not believe in any mathematical rations. I believe when doing TRT you should give testosterone as frequent as possible until the symptoms are resolved, whatever number and let the estrogen follows. Without HCG my e2 is much smaller. Fortunately I can get away with the HCG without having high e2 symptoms, but the author of the post does not use HCG

I do not believe we should be restricted by numbers, they should be just a guide. And all EVIDENCE BASED SCIENTIFIC data has built that believe in my, not just random posts or complains or whatever. I talk about experienced doctors discussing and analyzing INTERVENTIONAL STUDIES and their clinical experience.

If you post studies at least you need to read them. From the study you posted:

"Hypogonadal men have very low levels of circulating estrogen."

Can't you realise you're actually demonstrating what I'm trying to tell you? The key is homeostasis and balance. If you have a low E2, you find a way to restore it to what has been observed to be healthy. If you have low T, same thing and so on.
Once again you are talking about absolutes, because you have been brainwashed and don't have capability of critical thinking, like the vast majority of young guys these days. You just drink whatever they give you to drink.

One basic example. You get your blood tests and your zinc levels are low. If you supplement zinc and restore a normal zinc level, you will most likely feel better (unless there are other issues).
If you supplement zinc while your level are fine, you will most likely develop symptoms of zinc toxicity.
Even water can be toxic at really high doses.
Is it so hard to understand?

What you believe has zero importance within the medical field, if you can't back it up with solid medical evidences.
You could believe you can cure cancer with vitamin C. This doesn't allow you to go on a forum and tell people to go get a dexa scan, because their bones are melting.
Especially because you started TRT yesterday.

And please, stop with this stupid nonsense that more frequent injections means less sides. This has been proven to be the exact opposite for me and other people in this forum.

You're wasting your time @Appassionato with him.

I can tell you from personal experience that I have severe ED when my E2 is high. I've had it hit 117 with a Total T of 1100 / Free T 35 and nothing worked! ED, no libido, extreme head fog, etc. So, not everyone has great libido when letting E2 go where it wants. Another concern that should be taken very seriously is the lack of long term studies. We just do not know the long term effects of running extremely high E2. I like Dr. Saya's blood analogy - that too thick of fluid in the pipes can't be good over the long haul. That's just common sense.

So, do I want to use an AI? Absolutely not. I tried my best for four months not to use one. I've recently switched my TRT protocol to EOD to see if it will help. However, until studies can prove to me high E2 is fine, and my ED, head fog, etc. would work itself out, I have no choice. I take a very mild dose of AI (.125 mg) twice per week and I finally feel a lot better. Clearer thinking, libido / ED all much better, etc.

The reason I keep replying to these statements is because there are plenty of people reading these forums and they will all end believing this junk.
Until the day we will have an outburst of CVD for people on TRT and the FDA will use it as an excuse to regulate testosterone even more.

 

[Vonko1988]

Once again you are talking about absolutes, because you have been brainwashed and don't have capability of critical thinking, like the vast majority of young guys these days. You just drink whatever they give you to drink.

One basic example. You get your blood tests and your zinc levels are low. If you supplement zinc and restore a normal zinc level, you will most likely feel better (unless there are other issues).
If you supplement zinc while your level are fine, you will most likely develop symptoms of zinc toxicity.
Even water can be toxic at really high doses.
Is it so hard to understand?

I agree with these statements up to some point. Yes, too much of anything isnt good. But how much is too much?
I dont blindly trust a lab range on e piece of paper. These lab ranges are flawed and extremely low. The lab ranges of e2 are for people NOT on TRT.
I believe it is much better approach to judge by the symptoms. We know the high e2 symptoms. People usually have issues when they start to notice nipple sensitivity. If I notice that I will also start to think about doing something. But dont you understand everyone tolerates different amount of each hormone?
The best doctors are guided by the symptoms, not by the numbers. For 50 years since Hitler(he was on TRT as well if Im not mistaken) people have been doing TRT successfully without lab numbers and without AI.
About e2...ok too much is not good. But I have 80 and I do not have e2 issues, so is it too much? We also know blocking it is not good. By the way I also take zinc, but zinc cannot do wonders with e2. It seemed effective before I added the HCG. For some reason it seems Im HCG over responder. Without HCG my e2 and test would be MUCH MUCH lower. So everyone is different and we have to follow the symptoms and just orient by the numbers, but NOT BE RESTRICTED and freaked out by these numbers.

 

[Appassionato]

I agree with these statements up to some point. Yes, too much of anything isnt good. But how much is too much?
I dont blindly trust a lab range on e piece of paper. These lab ranges are flawed and extremely low. The lab ranges of e2 are for people NOT on TRT.
I believe it is much better approach to judge by the symptoms. We know the high e2 symptoms. People usually have issues when they start to notice nipple sensitivity. If I notice that I will also start to think about doing something. But dont you understand everyone tolerates different amount of each hormone?
The best doctors are guided by the symptoms, not by the numbers. For 50 years since Hitler(he was on TRT as well if Im not mistaken) people have been doing TRT successfully without lab numbers and without AI.
About e2...ok too much is not good. But I have 80 and I do not have e2 issues, so is it too much? We also know blocking it is not good. By the way I also take zinc, but zinc cannot do wonders with e2. It seemed effective before I added the HCG. For some reason it seems Im HCG over responder. Without HCG my e2 and test would be MUCH MUCH lower. So everyone is different and we have to follow the symptoms and just orient by the numbers, but NOT BE RESTRICTED and freaked out by these numbers.

The ranges are extrapolated from clinical observation of healthy young men. This is how, for example, the famous 20-30 pg/mL E2 optimal level has been extrapolated.
Just a reminder you're doing Testosterone Replacement Therapy, which means trying to emulate what a healthy man hormone profile should be. So your analogy doesn't hold.
There shouldn't be an E2 range for people on TRT and another one for normal people, because this undermine the whole purpose of TRT.

Now, no one is telling you you have to be within this E2 range, because then it depends on the free amount of E2 that is circulating, and on your receptors sensitivity.
Hence why everyone has been proven to be more or less sensitive to total E2 values.
But saying that is healthy walking with E2 level of a woman is so ridiculous we shouldn't even discuss it.
And especially here in the US, you have problems with two lobbies called FDA and medical insurances trying to lower ranges of total testosterone numbers, so that should be taken with a grain of salt.

You don't develop symptoms from HCG right away, it takes time in some people. Especially gynecomastia.

About 50 years of successful TRT protocols without checking numbers, well, that means you should go back injecting one every 2 weeks like they were doing 20 years ago.

 

[Vonko1988]

Now, no one is telling you you have to be within this E2 range, because then it depends on the free amount of E2 that is circulating, and on your receptors sensitivity.
Hence why everyone has been proven to be more or less sensitive to total E2 values.

E2 in the serum is very little part of the story because e2 is a peripheral hormone. It aromatizes and acts mainly in the tissues and we have no idea what is happening there.

The same way you tell me there are people sensitive to e2 values, I know at least 20 people with e2 over 60 and zero issues. There are people with e2 around 100, 120. How healthy is that Im not sure, but at least 3 of them have been like that for 3-5 years with zero issues.

 

[Appassionato]

E2 in the serum is very little part of the story because e2 is a peripheral hormone. It aromatizes and acts mainly in the tissues and we have no idea what is happening there.

The same way you tell me there are people sensitive to e2 values, I know at least 20 people with e2 over 60 and zero issues. There are people with e2 around 100, 120. How healthy is that Im not sure, but at least 3 of them have been like that for 3-5 years with zero issues.

Same thing for testosterone and DHT, just to name two. All the hormones works in the tissues, that doesn't mean anything. I wrote extensively on DHT serum levels and actual DHT in the scalp and the two things have been proven disconnected in several studies.
Once again, you're taking for granted whatever they are telling you and you're just repeating what they are saying.
I've just learned E2 is "peripheral" hormone. Facepalm.

And yet again you're neglecting the ratios. The absence of symptoms in people with higher E2 doesn't mean it's good to have it abnormally high, it just means the symptoms are mitigated by the high amount of androgens floating around.
Same thing happening with bodybuilders.
I've been there and on some steroid cycles I've felt pretty good, except for the fact I wanted to murder people that were messing up with me, that I was sweating insanely and that I was getting terribly anxious under stress. Without even mentioning my lipids profile.
Gym workouts and libido were great, along with brain sharpness.
Does it mean this is a healthy protocol long term?

 

[Vonko1988]

I've been there and on some steroid cycles I've felt pretty good, except for the fact I wanted to murder people that were messing up with me, that I was sweating insanely and that I was getting terribly anxious under stress.

Trust me Im pretty suspeptible to those things as well. I was pretty much like that before trt in a passive-aggressive way. If e2 was causing me emotional instability I would notice it quicker than any other person
You keep repeating those magic ranges but where is the evidence for that? Man, Im a programmer and Im also focused too much on numbers. But the human body is not so simple to confine its well being in some lab ranges

 

[Charliebizz]

The ranges are extrapolated from clinical observation of healthy young men. This is how, for example, the famous 20-30 pg/mL E2 optimal level has been extrapolated.
Just a reminder you're doing Testosterone Replacement Therapy, which means trying to emulate what a healthy man hormone profile should be. So your analogy doesn't hold.
There shouldn't be an E2 range for people on TRT and another one for normal people, because this undermine the whole purpose of TRT.

Now, no one is telling you you have to be within this E2 range, because then it depends on the free amount of E2 that is circulating, and on your receptors sensitivity.
Hence why everyone has been proven to be more or less sensitive to total E2 values.
But saying that is healthy walking with E2 level of a woman is so ridiculous we shouldn't even discuss it.
And especially here in the US, you have problems with two lobbies called FDA and medical insurances trying to lower ranges of total testosterone numbers, so that should be taken with a grain of salt.

You don't develop symptoms from HCG right away, it takes time in some people. Especially gynecomastia.

About 50 years of successful TRT protocols without checking numbers, well, that means you should go back injecting one every 2 weeks like they were doing 20 years ago.

im not on one side or the other but this can be debated all day. You say e2 is extrapolated from healthy young males. Who is to say they are healthy. Men’s numbers are treading down and take a look around. How many men are having issues. So that argument with “optimal” labs can go on forever and ever. My take away also is yes we are trying to mimic youth with trt but it doesn’t seem to have the same effect. Nobody had a reason why it takes higher numbers then “natural” for men to actually have symptom relief. If your lipids and cbc are in order but you need to run your numbers higher to feel normal I don’t see what’s wrong with that. After all we are all here to feel better and I’m the first guy to want to take as little and least amount of meds possible. I’m looking to just feel normal

 

[Appassionato]

Trust me Im pretty suspeptible to those things as well. I was pretty much like that before trt in a passive-aggressive way. If e2 was causing me emotional instability I would notice it quicker than any other person
You keep repeating those magic ranges but where is the evidence for that? Man, Im a programmer and Im also focused too much on numbers. But the human body is not so simple to confine its well being in some lab ranges

I'm not talking about any magic range, I've actually said I'm pretty flexible on it.
But this is where the famous healthy men range came out from in the US:

Estrogen Balance and Aging Men - Life Extension

"A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) measured blood estradiol (a dominant estrogen) in 501 men with chronic heart failure. Compared to men in the balanced estrogen quintile, men in the lowest estradiol quintile were 317% more likely to die during a 3-year follow-up, while men in the highest estradiol quintile were 133% more likely to die.24

The men in the balanced quintile—with the fewest deaths—had serum estradiol levels between 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL. This is virtually the ideal range that Life Extension® has long recommended male members strive for.

The men in the highest quintile who suffered 133% increased death rates had serum estradiol levels of 37.40 pg/mL or above. The lowest estradiol group that suffered a 317% increased death rate had serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL."

In Europe ranges have been established according to studies on healthy people, and that's why we don't have silly limits imposed from the FDA. Mind though that on a recent large scale study done on young men, just few managed to achieve a total T of 1100 ng/dL, which is explainable with the amount of toxins we are exposed to these days and the bad quality of food we are ingesting.

 

[Appassionato]

If your lipids and cbc are in order but you need to run your numbers higher to feel normal I don’t see what’s wrong with that. After all we are all here to feel better and I’m the first guy to want to take as little and least amount of meds possible. I’m looking to just feel normal

How many people with a total T around 1200 Let's say and a normal value of E2, without the use of an AI didn't see symptoms relief?
I haven't met many, but probably there are exceptions.
All the others need a free T number close to the top third of the range on peak and a normal E2 value to feel good.
Problem is with the trend of aiming for higher levels, just because people think more is better. Or because they want to grow the muscles they never had in life or to date the women they never paid attention to them.
This is the trend I'm strongly against.

The guy speaks about it in this body building related article:

Could I Have Achieved My Physique With Only TRT Dosages?

And that's what I'm trying to get people to understand. Most of the people don't need the doses they are injecting.
They end up running really high E2 numbers for no reason, that in the past were dealt with massive doses of AIS, while now the Rouzier's trend is prevailing, exposing to long term health issues we don't know yet.

 

[Charliebizz]

How many people with a total T around 1200 Let's say and a normal value of E2, without the use of an AI didn't see symptoms relief?
I haven't met many, but probably there are exceptions.
All the others need a free T number close to the top third of the range on peak and a normal E2 value to feel good.
Problem is with the trend of aiming for higher levels, just because people think more is better. Or because they want to grow the muscles they never had in life or to date the women they never paid attention to them.
This is the trend I'm strongly against.

The guy speaks about it in this body building related article:

Could I Have Achieved My Physique With Only TRT Dosages?

And that's what I'm trying to get people to understand. Most of the people don't need the doses they are injecting.
They end up running really high E2 numbers for no reason, that in the past were dealt with massive doses of AIS, while now the Rouzier's trend is prevailing, exposing to long term health issues we don't know yet.

im with you because trt is already vilified to the medical community. And we don’t need anymore bad press. But at the same time a lot of these men are paying out of pocket and actually doing way better then people being treated by conventional docs. It’s a fine line of trying to progress and not get pushed back by the fda.

I’m also starting to look at things different myself. What’s the difference if guys are pushing the limits to feel better as a man sitting in a bar drinking to enjoy life. Both pose risks but also bring joy lol

 

[Vonko1988]

How many people with a total T around 1200 Let's say and a normal value of E2, without the use of an AI didn't see symptoms relief?

Immediately to my mind comes a guy who started to feel optimal when he put his total t around 2000. And he was very slowly increasing it to that point for a period of one year.
I think his e2 is above 100 but not sure how much.
And he feels AWESOME, libido, sleep, mood and workouts rock

 

[Appassionato]

Immediately to my mind comes a guy who started to feel optimal when he put his total t around 2000. And he was very slowly increasing it to that point for a period of one year.
I think his e2 is above 100 but not sure how much.
And he feels AWESOME, libido, sleep, mood and workouts rock

You even started talking like dbossa on T Nation.