This guy as much as I dislike him hang outs with the best doctors in the world and is learning a lot from them. No matter the personal stuff what works, works
What is Optimal Estradiol Range for Libido/Erection
I wonder what that persons hdl, blood pressure, hematocrit, hemoglobin etc are like at 2000ng. I’m sorry but I call total BS on someone needing 2000ng to feel normal. If this ever was the case then that patient obviously has something else going on. From what I’ve seen being on trt over a decade and hundreds of hours of reading is, if someone’s problems aren’t resolved with t levels 500-1200ng then your problem isn’t testosterone related. There are some good doctors hosted on there occasionally but some of those guys are completely reckless with men’s health. You can get by with anything for a while but running levels 2-4 times the normal range I believe will catch up to some of these guys.
Which normal range, normal for who?
I personally do not give a crap about the T lab ranges. For me the real upper limit of the range is 1500. This 900 nowadays is pathetic
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
While I do agree with you that people’s mileage vary on what are optimal levels. I highly doubt anyone ever reaches 2000 t levels naturally. Unless they have a hormone producing tumor hahah. People feel really good when they take cocaine too but is that a long term solution ?
There is something called receptor site resistance and more and more data is coming out to support it. Due to the EDCs in our environment plugging the androgen receptors you need more testosterone to get into the cell and do its job. A lot of people's experiences as well support this
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Can you support that statement with actual scientific data ? If so please share it here!
There’s absolutely zero proof anywhere and I challenge you to present it to me if you can find anything about receptor resistant. I also challenge you to provide me anywhere, anyone that has had a lab test that shows their above 1000 ng naturally. I’ve been to four urologist over the last decade, one of which that has been in practice 42 years.
I have asked this question from all of them what is the highest natural testosterone level you’ve ever seen in a patient, even teenage patients and only one of them said he had ever seen a patient naturally above 1100 ng and that was a patient with testicular tumor.
I have asked this question from all of them what is the highest natural testosterone level you’ve ever seen in a patient, even teenage patients and only one of them said he had ever seen a patient naturally above 1100 ng and that was a patient with testicular tumor.
Of course they will not. Everyone today has shitty testosterone, but should we accept that? I dont. As I said for me 1500 total t is a decent number for a healthy young men, EVEN thought today NOBODY HAS SUCH levels naturally
By the way I know one guy who has 1300 naturally. The stupid endo told him it is too much. This guy is a genetic freak. He smokes, drinks and doesnt do sports and eats shit
There has been numerous polls over the years and several on here regarding what range most guys feel best in. The overwhelming majority of the men in these polls stated levels 600-800ng is where they feel best. Whatever one does with their health is their business but if someone is having to donate blood, use aromatase inhibitors and use a concoction of ancillary meds to counter the side effects, then you are using too much testosterone.
Appassionato
Active Member
You're taking extremes to justify something, as it has become common practice these days.
Androgens resistance (AR) is a really rare condition in medical literature. Do your own research once again, stop believing everything they tell you.
About ranges, you have been told many times already. No one is saying 900 should be the top limit for testosterone, and you should take in account free T anyway.
But these guys on T nation are walking with a free T of at least the double of the top range.
These ranges in Europe have been extrapolated from observation of young men, many of them in their teens, when your libido and energy is over the roof.
And as I said before, on a large sample, few managed to reach 1100 ng/dL of total T.
So, you total T at THROUGh is 1400, which is higher of 90% of normal men on earth,
and you E2 is the same of a woman on a mid period phase.
Do you realise there's no natural example of this in nature?
Any clue of what this means on the long run?
I was told by John Crisler during an appointment if a patient doesn’t see symptom relief with levels over 500 and less than 1000ng then the patient has some other underlying condition. This was probably one of the most well-versed TRT doctors to ever walk the planet regardless of what you think of him.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
A problem I have with that group is how it blurs the line. Optimization and trt are two different things clearly. Google search picture of the top 4 drs they talk to all the time. They are fucking jacked and shredded. Is there anything wrong with jacking your levels up for aesthetic’s no not imo but don’t promote it as trt. Trt is replacing what is lost due to illness of some sort. Optimization is a different ball game
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
That said I do agree they are putting out some good research papers and new ways of thinking about trt. And like someone said a while back on here being open minded is key. But like A is saying do your own research. Or proceed at your own risk but don’t come spewing this shit like gospel if you don’t have research to back it up yet. Not even saying they are wrong it’s just no backed up yet and no one knows they long term sides. Everyone thinks oh I don’t care if I die young as long as I lived good till my 60s. Yeah until you have a stroke and become half paralyzed in a wheel chair till your 90 lol
For me TRT is being optimized and nothing else. Feeling as good as possible and staying as healthy as possible. Before I started my total t was 560 and I had a lot of symptoms. So it is very logical rising it to 800 will not do much, right? In all studies I've seen giving high doses of test to men led mostly to positive outcomes. Neil Rozuier states as many in his lectures.
Of course everything should have a balance. Is having total t of 1400 and e2 of 80 bad for me? From all I've researched so far nothing proves harm. I will discuss this with my doctor end of month.
As great pioneer of TRT that John Crisler was he was proven wrong for many things. I've read very carefully his book. This field of medicine is evolving as we speak. In 5 years things will be totally different Im sure
Appassionato
Active Member
Sorry, but your ability to read studies has been proven faulty to say the least.
Let us know how your sleep is going in the meanwhile, I think that will be helpful for others as well.
This morning I woke up 6 again to pee, but managed to fall asleep well up to 7.30 and I feel refreshed then. Before 6 I slept like dead. I introduced now mid day magnesium only 200mg, hope it doesnt worsen things
Even if we disregard total testosterone and only go by free testosterone, I have skyhigh SHBG usually in the 70s and even with total testosterone of 1000 ng I’m completely over the top of the true T calculator as far as free testosterone. I can’t imagine how in the world anyone, unless their SHBG were like 500 would need levels that high that’s my only point.
I agree with your point, but it's safer not to speak in absolutes. Over at PeakT there are a few guys who over the years have reported natural levels in the 1,000-1,500 ng/dL range. But they invariably have very high SHBG.
If we could agree on a standard, such as Tru-T, then the upper limit for natural free testosterone would be of more importance. Our bodies are essentially regulating free T (via free estradiol).
Edit: I see we posted the same idea almost simultaneously...
I really suspect there can be issue with the ester. I met a guy who said that when he injected his enanthate morning he had the same issue(night time wake up) but when he switched to evening injection it was fixed. The issue is I dont think it will be as simple with the sustanon
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