What happens to the carbs?

[croaker24]

Thanks Vince.

I never believed in The One True Holy Diet, a diet that fits everyone - hence my distaste for these fad diets that promote it as such. I can believe in genetic tendencies for specific ways of eating simply due to how the human race spread and evolved in different climatic conditions and localized food availability around the world.

Having said that, my situation is that I am apoe3/2. I'm trying to read through this study but it's dense, and I would need to write out each statement pertaining to 3/2 and summarize the statements.

Here's how my lipids stand after the last test a month ago:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 150"]
[TR]
[TD]LDL-P[/TD]
[TD]601[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]LDL-C[/TD]
[TD]49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]HDL-C[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TRG[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHOL-Total[/TD]
[TD]108[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]HDL-P[/TD]
[TD]25.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Small HDL-P[/TD]
[TD]238[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]LDL Size[/TD]
[TD]20.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I believe I am doing something right. My take is that I need to get the HDL-P up over 30.5, and the LDL Size over 20.5 to have all my lipid numbers within a good range.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Does consuming saturated fat contribute to ED?

 

[croaker24]

I have very low total cholesterol. I've seen opinions that too low is not good for overall mortality risk. If so, the quandary is - how do I raise it and while not killing my HDL-C and triglycerides? My diet was never about lowering total cholesterol, it was about keeping HDL-C and triglycerides optimal.

 

[croaker24]

With respect to the ApoE genotype and lipids - the following summary is a succinct description of the research out there:

http://www.clevelandheartlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ApoE-Practitioner-OnePager-CHL-D023.pdf

For example - it states:

"The ApoE genotype can affect an individual’s response to lifestyle modifications. In those with the e2/e2 or e2/e3 genotype, extremely low fat diets can increase small dense LDL levels, and therefore these individuals should have moderate fat restriction.

Individuals with the e4/e3 or e4/e4 genotype, on the other hand, respond well to very low fat dietary restrictions.

Responsiveness to treatment with statins is also affected by the ApoE genotype. Individuals with the e2/e2 or e2/e3 genotype respond well to statins, while statins are less effective in individuals with the e4/e3 or e4/e4."

NOW - Alzheimer's also comes in to play. According to the following URL:

http://www.alzdiscovery.org/cognitive-vitality/what-apoe-means-for-your-health

"Given the baseline of e3/e3 as normal risk. Those with the e2 allele have 40% less risk of developing the disease. Those with the e3/e4 variants have 3.2 times greater. And those with e4/e4 have 14.9 times greater risk."

ALSO - e2/e2 genotype can be at elevated risk for Type III Hyperlipidemia - however - only a very small % of people with this genotype actually develop it.

My conclusions -

a) For the most part the evidence is not real strong for specific dietary recommendations, there's too many other factors involved.

b) Having said that, as an e2/e3 - it does appear I should avoid an extremely low-fat diet. Given I have very good LDL-P - I don't think this is an issue. And I definitely do not eat extremely low-fat.

c) If you are e3/e3 - no real specific diet is applicable.

d) If you are one of the extremes (e2/e2 or e4/e4) you very well may need a specific diet plan provided you have began developing pertinent symptoms. And should better be talking to specialists and not relying on google or naturopathic types for advice.

IMHO, getting this test done is unnecessary and likely a waste of money unless you are experiencing some pertinent conditions/symptoms such as cardiovascular issues, very high LDL/triglycerides etc. I would not presume to even advise with respect to Alzheimer's. I did not know I getting this test done by my previous TRT provider until after the fact when I was already in the lab having the blood drawn, as I did not read the prescription in detail. As such, I've had the test, I've read up on it - and it changes nothing.


.

 

[Jay]

"not relying on google or naturopathic types for advice". LOL

I have done Keto several times for prep of bodybuilding shows...it really does lean you out and help get down to 3% body fat....at least for me. What shocked me was that a diet that could get me that lean was sooooo bad for my lipids. Generally, in off-season I do 20/40/40 which as it turns out is way better for my lipids. Again everybody is different and it is a good idea to test lipids if you do something else. I know that when I do other shows I will not do keto again!

 

[croaker24]

Jay - you got that right. Everyone is different. I don't know my ratio of fat/protein/carbs, I just focus on eating as clean as possible, and make sure each meal has healthy fat. I was directed in the way I'm eating now by a dietician, after being referred to her by my GI.

I do think people have genotypes with a preference for differing distributions of this ratio, and I think it can be discovered on your own, just as you did.

You said the Keto diet got your lipids up; were you getting a lot of saturated fat?

 

[Jay]

"You said the Keto diet got your lipids up; were you getting a lot of saturated fat?" Yep, although for a bodybuilding show I would choose healthy fats such as coconut oil, avocado, fish, nuts. But I did a more Bro keto with 50/45/5 ratio. My last show was about 4 years ago and went back to the higher carbs/protein and low fat...then went and got blood work done and found my ha1c at 5.9 and glucose 105 (i think) regardless they were elevated, so decided to go back to keto since it worked so well for my shows. However, I changed the ratio to 70/25/5 and added more unhealthy fats that come from steak, cream, butter. So it is possible that my Bro Keto method might have been more healthy on lipids...dunno never tested blood.

The reality is keto whether it is Bro or other keto was short term for me to drop body fat, I can't sustain a high fat diet with no carbs for the rest of my life. Just too limiting. My hats off to people who can. A good friend of mine does the Bro Keto and has been doing it for like 15 years. He keeps his body fat at 6% all year. This makes it easy for him to compete b/c he has a very small pre-contest diet (basically drops his cheat meals for 10 weeks and is at 3%), but again, he has a specific goal in mind, so easier to maintain that lifestyle of eating...I think

 

[midlifealpha]

Thanks Vince.

I never believed in The One True Holy Diet, a diet that fits everyone - hence my distaste for these fad diets that promote it as such.
I believe I am doing something right. My take is that I need to get the HDL-P up over 30.5, and the LDL Size over 20.5 to have all my lipid numbers within a good range.

Sorry I trimmed down some of your post.

I sure as hell don't go around telling anyone that Keto is the only way to go. I just happen to feel mentally sharper and lighter on my feet when on Keto, trying to keep total carbs to 20 or less. I think for those with a lot of belly fat it can be worth a shot. My lipids aren't as good as yours (at least those which I have a test on) and I've been basically Keto for 2 years. Down 80 lbs, but have stalled a bit need at least 40 more to get into that stud for a 46 year old look. The TRT and Gene's stack has already made the smart ladies who can deal with a little belly fat get a good hard shagging that they won't forget.

The last test I had was not as complete as yours but nothing alarming and I can remember being 215 as a 21 year old as far as CHOL-Total so the 171 just doesn't concern me particularly after two years of not giving a shit what kind of fats I eat (mostly read meat, but Chicken, pork). Fish I don't eat outside of when someone makes Salmon. What I mean is I never cook it myself or order it at a restaurant on purpose. I do like to occasionally have cucumber wrapped Sushi (as opposed to the Rice Sushi).

In any case according to the MyQuest report my LDL I do believe was low. I think the Triglycerides were 68 but until I can get into the Quest account I am not sure. I requested a password change but it doesn't seem to be in a hurry.

 

[Vince]

I happened to pick up on a string of stories of people where "low carb" had failed them and so they moved to ZERO Carb. The results are beyond dramatic is terms on health, all the markers and the reversing of many diseases.
http://myzerocarblife.jamesdhogan.com/wp/start/

 

[BuzzzardMarinePumper]

Wow ! What a good read , kinda long haired and all the medical terms make it a little boring and hard for me to follow but what stood out to me was the 1500 calories a day from carbs ?

I am new to this forum and have done a fair amount of personal research associated lifting above the age of 50 yrs old and nutrition . I have also read that all carbs are not created equal ?

Divided into nutrition vales of veggie carbs when consumed :

1) Simple carbs pure sugar when ingest in forms of foods like - sugar, sodas , white potato , white rice to ripe bananas , OJ , oranges , large amounts of even apples all at one time . processed honey . all syrups with the exclusion of molasses
2) Mid level carbs still having simple carbs but very fibrous and they are OK to ingest in moderation - Sweet potatoes , broccoli , Small amounts of carrots , Squash , egg plants ,
3) Zero carbs that actually are caloric burning to even eat - like celery , cauliflower , Kind or Broccoli falls in here also , Basically super high in fiber veggies . raw honey is also a fat burner as opposed to the almost poison processed honey .

With these thoughts in mind is there any truth to all carbs are not created equal ?

Another point IMO is even if we target a zero carb site is it really possible to eat zero carbs and still eat remotly livable with a varity of foods for nutrition ? Will a few carbs really be ingested even targeting zero carbs ?

I lost the most fat in my life eating low carbs and high protien and even less fats with a zero carb target and still got a few carbs ?

Please Vince would you try to assist me in plain layman terms as to what I have posted and the error of my information I have researched and also I guess you would call water cooler gym talk but yet seemed to give me the best results with no lab work to back up the fat loose , but great feeling and extra energy and the theory behind all this is that carb depletion of the body will cause it to start burning fat as energy and that = fat loose and the high protein = lean weight gain ?

I am not a weight watcher I am a fat watcher and the way I feel and look , ie,. the way my clothes fit and the way I look in the mirror ?

I welcome all thoughts and especially simple facts for a simple man ?

 

[croaker24]

Buzzard Dude -

I think you are overanalyzing this too much. You need your carbs! My opinion is that low-carb is a fad based on shallow science and shills pushing books and DVDs. You want to get rich? Write a diet book, cherry-pick the evidence (the majority of people will be too damn lazy to look up the sources), and throw in a bunch of anecdotes.

Consider the people of Ikaria, an island off Greece whom are very long-lived. Guess what? They eat a ton of potatoes and beans. Or Okinawa - where their diet was up to 60% sweet potatoes. Looking at the zones of long-lived people, the commonality was a plant-based diet - some ate fish, some did not; others had a lot of nuts/seeds. Most of their protein came from sources such as beans as opposed to red meat. There were other factors in their longevity - but a plant-based diet was the common thread. And I am not pushing vegan or vegetarian however - man is an omnivore for a reason.

Bottom line - yes - forget the simple carbs such as sugar, sodas, white rice, etc. Make sure you get your protein/fat with carbs. Take the simple banana. It gets a totally underserved rap from folks. It's loaded with nutrients and has resistant starch. I would not eat one by itself however, nor any fruit. Even with snacks, I always pair the fruit with fat/protein.

I get most of my protein from beans/quinoa/buckwheat, nuts/seeds, or fish. My diet is about 10% protein, 35% fat, and 55% carbs but I don't worry about it, I just eat and I eat a very diverse diet. I measured my diet on cronometer.com and it's loaded with nutrients: 156% Vitamin C, 419% B12, 180% iron, 156% Vitamin K, 203%, 156% Vitamin E; and so on. And I'm not eating *ANY* fortified processed foods.

I feel great, my weight only varies by 1 to 2 pounds either direction for over a year now. I do not believe that low-carb that is a viable long-term solution - it is too restrictive. I do think you got to find what % of fat in your diet you need for your specific body type/genome.

 

[midlifealpha]

For anyone interested in a group who hopes to do some research on why Low Carb works well for some people check out Dr. Peter Attia's Site, The Eating Academy:

http://eatingacademy.com/

Pretty solid credentials.

From one of the videos of Dr. Attia I watched, he brought up a very good point and this is EXACTLY why I do not bash croaker24 for his opinion even though I completely ignore his advice on diet.

The body wants to take the path of least resistance to obtain the energy it needs to sustain the brain, and physical activity throughout the day. That would be Carbs. Now I am not getting into good carbs/bad carbs, I am just saying the body is looking to get its' fuel from Carbs.

If you choose to low-carb, and if you enter into Ketosis, the body can convert to using Ketones as it's energy source.
And that is the problem with "luke-warm" low-carbing. Let's say you are half-assed committed to low-carbing for the sake of argument. You mostly eat low-carb but have a banana and a couple of peaches after all it's fruit which is good for you right? What happens if you drive that carb count to 80g and you are not terribly active?

The danger state is falling out of Ketosis and here is why. I like to play basketball, lift weights, and smack baseballs off my batting tee in the back yard. That is I'd rather stick to Alpha-Male stuff (will probably get a heavy bag) for now and when I get a little older I might golf or something. But I am probably not exercising at a clip that guarantees I burn off 80 carbs to force my body into Ketosis. (Lost 80 lbs but still have some visceral fat to lose)

Why is that a problem?

When I fall out of Ketosis my body wants Carbs for Energy it cannot use Ketones. This is when people become sluggish. You aren't eating enough carbs to keep the brain sharp, but you are eating too many carbs such that energy from Ketones is not possible.

This is why I tell anyone who wants to try it. If you are going to go low-carb don't **** around. I prefer the 20g per day most recommend to ensure you'll be in Ketosis.

How do I know when I am in Ketosis? Simple. I can walk right by Pie, Cake, Cookies and have absolutely no temptation. All I look forward to is my next piece of meat or eggs. Cheese whatever.

The other thing is mood. I am sure my T-Levels are on the high side anyway and if I am off low-carb and eating shitty, my mental state sucks. I'd venture to say it's close to being depressed. As soon as I cut to 0-20 carbs I feel light on my feet. I feel mentally sharper. Tonight in the 95 degree heat I was down there shooting hoops and felt great. 46 and my handle is still good and knocking down the step back three after a couple crossovers, through the legs. I doubt I look like Steph Curry, but I damn sure feel like him. When I was off-diet I was slumping into the couch.

To be fair though I was not eating what Croaker said to eat. This is why I think his way is correct. I just happen to think my way is correct also.

Croaker I am 6'1" just out of curiosity have you ever weighed 320? I have and thus I don't think "Insulin Resistance" is quackery. I literally think that there are people who do not process carbohydrates as well as others. Most examples are anecdotal but there hasn't been a single peer-reviewed study about lower carb, higher-fat eating over the last 5 years that said anything bad about low carb eating.

My plan actually is to get to where I want to be eating my way, and gradually move to what you are doing but for right now, I am much happier when meat and veggies are 90% of my intake. (the rest being some cheese/eggs)

 

[BuzzzardMarinePumper]

Buzzard Dude -

I think you are overanalyzing this too much. You need your carbs! My opinion is that low-carb is a fad based on shallow science and shills pushing books and DVDs. You want to get rich? Write a diet book, cherry-pick the evidence (the majority of people will be too damn lazy to look up the sources), and throw in a bunch of anecdotes.

Consider the people of Ikaria, an island off Greece whom are very long-lived. Guess what? They eat a ton of potatoes and beans. Or Okinawa - where their diet was up to 60% sweet potatoes. Looking at the zones of long-lived people, the commonality was a plant-based diet - some ate fish, some did not; others had a lot of nuts/seeds. Most of their protein came from sources such as beans as opposed to red meat. There were other factors in their longevity - but a plant-based diet was the common thread. And I am not pushing vegan or vegetarian however - man is an omnivore for a reason.

Bottom line - yes - forget the simple carbs such as sugar, sodas, white rice, etc. Make sure you get your protein/fat with carbs. Take the simple banana. It gets a totally underserved rap from folks. It's loaded with nutrients and has resistant starch. I would not eat one by itself however, nor any fruit. Even with snacks, I always pair the fruit with fat/protein.

I get most of my protein from beans/quinoa/buckwheat, nuts/seeds, or fish. My diet is about 10% protein, 35% fat, and 55% carbs but I don't worry about it, I just eat and I eat a very diverse diet. I measured my diet on cronometer.com and it's loaded with nutrients: 156% Vitamin C, 419% B12, 180% iron, 156% Vitamin K, 203%, 156% Vitamin E; and so on. And I'm not eating *ANY* fortified processed foods.

I feel great, my weight only varies by 1 to 2 pounds either direction for over a year now. I do not believe that low-carb that is a viable long-term solution - it is too restrictive. I do think you got to find what % of fat in your diet you need for your specific body type/genome.

This is from 270lbs to 219lbs 2 & a half years ago and and now 235lbs still same waist as when at 219lbs But this was on a 0 carb target and as you can see no lean muscle mass and still some fat !





lol , that would be Marine dude lol ! Different goals and mine is fat loose and lean muscle mass and I have never seen a pic of you but no matter what your age and even with out seeing I am willing to bet you are not lean and on the nutrition program you would be borderline little ! You have to have protein for muscle growth and call me a cave man but I am no tree huger and I want lean hard muscles and , yes even at 57 I am still growing in a lean manner and I do not think you ate evaluating the power of a high protein and low carb diet ! Oh do lift weights and most of all do you even squat ? maybe for you skinny is good ? But you can be lean and not skinny ! Please post a current pic and prove me wrong ? I am an on going senior work in progress ! not close to a BB but still I love the high protein and low carb life style and I have no trouble at all at 200 grams of protein a day and 50 grams of fat and 70 grams or carbs Living a daily nutrition program and eating 5 to 6 x's a day !

Remember all of us have different goals and your nutrition intake is not a lean mass building intake !

 

[BuzzzardMarinePumper]

200 grams of protein a day and 50 grams of fat and 70 grams or carbs . This is approximately 01700 calories a day and I eat more chewable protein some times ! If you are insulin resistant have you tried Medformin !

These are few mths ago and I am still growing and loosing fat at about 2 to 3 lbs a mth depending on how clean I eat and how strict my exercise routine !


Feb


Easter grilling chicken and happy ! Oh , the sauce you see is for my youths not for me I do not eat processed foods ! With the exception of Whey !

Over analyze this ! Almost 57 and a work in progress still learning still analyzing

 

[BuzzzardMarinePumper]

Oh had egg beaters , spinach coconut oil , Low fat cottage cheese , chicken 6oz and a Whey shake for 1st am meal about 5:00 am and then went for a casual Mountain bike ride !

I just ate 1/2 a banana, 1/3 cup brown rice and headed to the gym with a gal of water and will do cardio and lift

Wanna join me

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Looking good, BuzzardMarinePumper !


Here is a simple graph:

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Watch a great lecture that will open your eyes to the effect of sugar on health.

It is long (I watched in in 3 pieces) since it is a lecture. Worth every minute.


And read:

The Science of Healthy Eating

 

[BuzzzardMarinePumper]

Thanks there Mr. Nelson :

It has been 3 years of clean eating and hard dedication to a minimum of 5 days a week in the gym and 2 hrs cardio and 45 to 90 minutes lifting and even at 57 we can eat the proper nutrition and turn back the clock on aging ! I am actually proud of me !

I do how ever pre and post load a small amount of a mid level carbs for slow release of energy while lifting and post to aid protein in the repair of muscle while I sleep !

From my death bed to larger than the average 56 yr old man ! When I grow up I wanna be smart and big like you ! As I age I find I have to change my training routine and I don't need as many calories to add lean body weight as long as every time I get a hunger urge I fill it with protein and when I get a sweet tooth I use raw honey and frozen seedless grapes , even slap on some peanut butter with celery !

Here are a couple of pics that help the mind relate to all the good words and complex info digest in a simple cave man form


View attachment 1493

View attachment 1494

 

[Vince]

Energy expenditure and body composition changes after an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men
The carbohydrate–insulin model of obesity posits that habitual consumption of a high-carbohydrate diet sequesters fat within adipose tissue because of hyperinsulinemia and results in adaptive suppression of energy expenditure (EE). Therefore, isocaloric exchange of dietary carbohydrate for fat is predicted to result in increased EE, increased fat oxidation, and loss of body fat. In contrast, a more conventional view that “a calorie is a calorie” predicts that isocaloric variations in dietary carbohydrate and fat will have no physiologically important effects on EE or body fat. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/07/05/ajcn.116.133561.abstract

 

[Vince]

Published on Aug 10, 2016
I understand why there is so much confusion around butter and saturated fat. The diet debates have America spinning. Some advocate for putting dollops of butter in coffee, while others shun avocados and nuts as harmful heart disease promoting and fattening foods. What's an eater to do?

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