Using protocol change to spike dopamine?

[Vince]

Why not tackle it head on with a dopamine booster, e.g. selegiline?

Interesting. Do you need to increase the dose of selegline overtime to get the same effect? How long have you been using selegline? If you stop it, do you feel any withdrawal?

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[Gman86]

My experience with selegiline has been pretty negative in doses between 2.5 mg and 5 mg daily. I felt that the initial benefits in mood and motivation waned over time, while I became gradually more and more irritable and angry. After some months I was a raging a-hole to people around me, with no patience for obstacles or setbacks.

I also have experience with amphetamine ADHD drugs and they cause me urinary tract inflammation that was duplicated by selegiline. I attributed that to the amphetamine metabolites.

I was in my 20's when I last used it and it seems possible that it is more useful at older ages if mao-b has increased. While selegiline has a honeymoon period like so many dopaminergic substances, the low dose mao-b selective doses of selegiline do not improve depression in studies -- you need higher doses that also inhibit mao-a for that effect. If I knew of 100 people that experimented with selegiline, there were probably only 2 or 3 still taking it years later. Again though, it was a younger crowd.

If you really want to dive down this rabbit hole, search for selegiline / deprenyl on longecity.org. There must be hundreds of threads and thousands of posts on it there, stretching back to the early 2000's.

How did u take the 2.5 and 5mg daily? Sublingually or orally?

Do u remember ever trying lower doses, or 2.5mg/ day was the lowest dose u ever tried?

 

[Gman86]

Interesting. Do you need to increase the dose of selegline overtime to get the same effect? How long have you been using selegline? If you stop it, do you feel any withdrawal?

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I have many anecdotes saved from people using the same low dose sublingually for years and years. A few 20 years+ while still experiencing the benefits. So don’t think it’s something that u need to increase the dose overtime.

Not really sure about the withdrawal. Haven’t come across many anecdotes where people talk about that aspect. I’ve personally stopped selegiline a few times and don’t think I’ve noticed experiencing any withdrawal symptoms. At least that I’m aware of

 

[Gman86]

Here’s a couple anecdotes. One where a guy is using it in conjunction with TRT, and the other is of a guy using some form of selegiline for around 22 years. Anytime someone reports feeling angry and irritable, it usually seems to be a case of simply taking too much. Selegiline has a very high absorption rate when taken sublingually compared to taken orally. I think a lot of people underestimate how much selegiline they’re getting in their system when taking sublingually. Taking it sublingually can increase the amount u absorb by up to 8x, compared to taking the same dose orally. And a lot of the original data is based on taking it orally from my understanding. So when the original data says that the people in the study took 5mg orally, people take that and think that taking 2.5mg sublingually isn’t much. But u could be getting as much in ur bloodstream taking 2.5mg sublingually as someone taking 20mg orally. And most people take it sublingually from what I’ve seen. So I think people just end up taking more than they need to. From all the positive anecdotes that I’ve seen over the years, most of these people are using sublingual doses of 1.25mg either daily, EOD, and quite a few just 1-3 times per week

validstatement 5y

The combination of selegiline and testosterone replacement therapy has made me one of the most productive, motivated, and organized people I know. Complete reversal in personality, I really like it. I can also be extremely intense to be around, though. I'm sorry you've found it hasn't worked very well for you. I also get very irritable with selegiline if I take too much. Try 1mg every other day. That's my sweet spot. Additionally, I find high dosages of fish oil alleviates the aggression and irritability. About 4-8g, daily. Consider trying that. Good luck!

doogiehowitzer1 208d

I’ve been taking selegiline in some form or another for 22 years now. Always in low doses varying between 1-5mgs. I am 41 years old now, and many people regularity comment on my youthful appearance.
-It is energizing and uplifting for me. Although I already have a naturally high tolerance to stimulants. It is very motivating and an aphrodisiac. It has certainly been a nootropic for me and aided me in my career. There have been strategy meetings where I would suddenly have bouts of creativity or insight which I feel would not have occurred if I hadn’t been taking it. But I can’t be certain if that’s placebo or not.
-If you find it to be overly stimulating or creating other negative side effects back your dosing off to every other day or every 2-3 days. I have used varying dosing schemes over the years (always in doses less than <5mg.) I have settled on my preferred dose being 1mg sublingual every day or every other day depending on how I am feeling. I have never had a single negative effect that I can discern. I drink wine, eat whatever I want, have combined I with other stimulants in the past for whatever reason at the time. All good. I am in great health as well though. I run 5 days a week and lift weights 2 days weekly. I do credit selegiline with giving me the motivation and energy to continue working out like that.
-I realize I may be an outlier. There are many reports in the internet of selegiline working well initially for many only to cause problems which led to discontinuation later on. My belief is that most of these are due to taking too much. Dr Knoll himself advised a very conservative dosing regimen which is not being followed in these negative reviews.

 

[Vince]

I have many anecdotes saved from people using the same low dose sublingually for years and years. A few 20 years+ while still experiencing the benefits. So don’t think it’s something that u need to increase the dose overtime.

Not really sure about the withdrawal. Haven’t come across many anecdotes where people talk about that aspect. I’ve personally stopped selegiline a few times and don’t think I’ve noticed experiencing any withdrawal symptoms. At least that I’m aware of

I see reliable RX sells it under the brand name selgin 5 mg, would that dose work?

 

[Gman86]

I see reliable RX sells it under the brand name selgin 5 mg, would that dose work?

Ya it should. Know a guy here that gets his from alldaychemist and his stuff is definitely legit. He’s feeling all the positive benefits of increased dopamine. He’s currently taking 2.5mg sublingually every day. I get mine through defy. Just have them send the script to my local pharmacy. Forget if I used insurance or goodrx last time, but I remember it not being very expensive. Still have a bottle of it from a while back. Have used it on and off. Currently been back on it since the beginning of June. Actually gonna call defy tomorrow and get a new script. Will be running out of my old prescription shortly

 

[Vtail]

Ya it should. Know a guy here that gets his from alldaychemist and his stuff is definitely legit. He’s feeling all the positive benefits of increased dopamine. He’s currently taking 2.5mg sublingually every day. I get mine through defy. Just have them send the script to my local pharmacy. Forget if I used insurance or goodrx last time, but I remember it not being very expensive. Still have a bottle of it from a while back. Have used it on and off. Currently been back on it since the beginning of June. Actually gonna call defy tomorrow and get a new script. Will be running out of my old prescription shortly

Regarding your using it "on and of" - Is there a reason you don't take it consistently?

 

[Willyt]

I get mine through defy. Just have them send the script to my local pharmacy. Forget if I used insurance or goodrx last time, but I remember it not being very expensive.

That's good to know because I couldn't find it on Defy's site. Was it prescribed for libido or for dopamine increase?

 

[Gman86]

That's good to know because I couldn't find it on Defy's site. Was it prescribed for libido or for dopamine increase?

I think I originally asked for it to lower prolactin a bit

 

[Gman86]

Regarding your using it "on and of" - Is there a reason you don't take it consistently?

I think the main reason was that I was a bit concerned about taking something to modulate dopamine levels, in fear that my body would become dependent on it to feel good. Don’t think my fears were justified or anything. I just tend to overthink things sometimes. But after doing more research I feel comfortable taking it indefinitely, and based on the research it seems like it actually might be something beneficial health wise to take indefinitely

 

[FunkOdyssey]

How did u take the 2.5 and 5mg daily? Sublingually or orally?

Do u remember ever trying lower doses, or 2.5mg/ day was the lowest dose u ever tried?

Orally. I never tried lower doses than 2.5 mg that I can recall.

 

[Anonymon]

I’ve been on 2.5mg of selegiline in the morning under my tongue for months and love it. Mostly makes me feel like a normal human being probably would. Actually calms me down. I almost fell asleep working just now because what I was doing is something I hate and is braindead work. I’m not the guy that has ever fallen asleep without laying for hours probably in my entire life. Pregnenolone also has some studies on a dose dependent increase in dopamine response to things, which I’m also on at 400mg in the morning a day and it helped me a lot too.

I think the hard part with selegiline and related things is that all of this stuff’s complicated and it can be hard to know what’s up with your own chemistry because of that. I had a lot of very strong indications from years of doing this in terms of what worked and didn’t work and in what combinations and why, and I ended up being really happy with anything that increased dopamine. I would imagine people with depression from low dopamine are probably very rare, but I came in with PFS and lowered dopamine levels are noted, so it seemingly worked out in my case.

The only downsides for me so far have been that I have to deal with things normal people deal with all the time but I guess I’ve never had to. Like watching Netflix seemingly like a really great idea over working if you’re tired, getting caught up in something interesting, staying up late because you’re into what you’re doing, things like that.

 

[Willyt]

Here’s a couple anecdotes. One where a guy is using it in conjunction with TRT, and the other is of a guy using some form of selegiline for around 22 years. Anytime someone reports feeling angry and irritable, it usually seems to be a case of simply taking too much. Selegiline has a very high absorption rate when taken sublingually compared to taken orally. I think a lot of people underestimate how much selegiline they’re getting in their system when taking sublingually. Taking it sublingually can increase the amount u absorb by up to 8x, compared to taking the same dose orally.

Presumably these low dose amounts requiring splitting 5mg tablet? Are you just splitting the tablet and putting piece under the tongue?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I’ve been on 2.5mg of selegiline in the morning under my tongue for months and love it. Mostly makes me feel like a normal human being probably would. Actually calms me down. I almost fell asleep working just now because what I was doing is something I hate and is braindead work. I’m not the guy that has ever fallen asleep without laying for hours probably in my entire life.

This is an interesting spin on the fatigue that often emerges with chronic use. I suppose it could be considered a benefit for those that started with too much energy.

I ran across a post on Reddit that mirrors my jaded attitude towards selegiline:

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[Gman86]

Presumably these low dose amounts requiring splitting 5mg tablet? Are you just splitting the tablet and putting piece under the tongue?

Yup. I just grabbed some razor blades at Walmart and split the 5mg tab in half, and then split those in half. Then put a 1/4 tab under my tongue. It dissolves pretty quickly. Let it swish around for 20 mins or so on my way to work and then swallow it all

 

[Anonymon]

This is an interesting spin on the fatigue that often emerges with chronic use. I suppose it could be considered a benefit for those that started with too much energy.

I ran across a post on Reddit that mirrors my jaded attitude towards selegiline:

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Accept third party cookies

For me it’s definitely not fatigue. I’ll try putting it another way:

I typically wouldn’t be compelled to do things like lay down or rest, binge a TV series, get caught up in something fun, understand why people dance to music, or enjoy a view. On Selegiline I do. Even if I was tired my mind would usually be going at a mile a minute so it’d take forever to get to sleep. On selegiline I feel pretty normal like most other people probably would based on their behaviors, for better and worse.

Definitely not for everybody. Seems to work well for me though.

The only potential thing it may be causing is some leg cramps, but I also tried stopping T3, which more typically would cause that and is higher on my list of potential causes. In the interests of transparency though, I have been dealing with that while playing with thyroid meds over the past month as my T4 ended up being bunk. If raising T3 again and messing with that doesn’t help, it would be next on my list I suppose, but the timing and symptoms all coincide more strongly with thyroid changes than selgin.

 

[Anonymon]

Actually, looking into it a bit more, selegiline might actually be causing me to cramp from sympathetic vasoconstriction and generally speeding up my intestines too much to absorb things right. Admittedly these sorts of cramps aren’t like the ones I’m used to experiencing with thyroid issues in terms of location. I’ll taper down and we’ll see what happens.

 

[DS3]

I have kept a crude TRT journal over the last several years, adding notes every week or so. On occasion, I will review the journal to spot any patterns or conclusions that I can draw with a reasonably high degree of certainty. This is how I often find myself repeating the same mistakes over again LOL.

While many of my results have been non-sensical or confounding, one pattern has developed over time - I almost always report feeling good after a protocol change - e.g., the form of testosterone, dose, frequency, and/or injection method. It doesn't matter whether the dose increased or decreased. Same result. Comments like: "Wonderful day! So motivated and appreciated everyone and everything." This usually goes on for 2-3 days and then inevitably I report an emotional flatness, feeling unmotivated, etc.

Many others on this forum have reported feeling a similar temporary boost following a protocol change. The question is what causes this marvelous yet fleeting feeling? Is it the placebo effect? Or is it a dopamine spike?

Dopa-fiend
I tend to think its the latter and have concluded that most of my issues are driven more by a dopamine deficiency than low T. This is especially true when it comes to libido.

Upon reflection, I realize that I've been chasing dopamine most of my adult life. My family often kids me about being a hobby junkie. The pattern is the same every time. I find a new hobby, research the hell out it, go balls-to-the-wall obsession, surf the high and then lose interest. Thankfully I don't usually waste new gear because I will "rediscover" the hobby at some point and the cycle begins anew. Its a bit maddening, but at least you learn to laugh at yourself as you grow older.

How to harness power of protocol changes?
Is there a way to regularly use protocol changes to manipulate dopamine without sabotaging TRT? The dopamine spike would be temporary since the body will self-regulate, but I would take it!

For example, one could rotate from daily injections to EOD every other week. Or for daily injectors (like me), one could change his dose each day using a ladder approach: 7mg => 8mg => 9mg => 10mg and then back down to 7mg.

Sure. Change esters quarterly.

 

[Willyt]

I’ve been on 2.5mg of selegiline in the morning under my tongue for months and love it. Mostly makes me feel like a normal human being probably would. Actually calms me down. I almost fell asleep working just now because what I was doing is something I hate and is braindead work. I’m not the guy that has ever fallen asleep without laying for hours probably in my entire life. Pregnenolone also has some studies on a dose dependent increase in dopamine response to things, which I’m also on at 400mg in the morning a day and it helped me a lot too.

I think the hard part with selegiline and related things is that all of this stuff’s complicated and it can be hard to know what’s up with your own chemistry because of that. I had a lot of very strong indications from years of doing this in terms of what worked and didn’t work and in what combinations and why, and I ended up being really happy with anything that increased dopamine. I would imagine people with depression from low dopamine are probably very rare, but I came in with PFS and lowered dopamine levels are noted, so it seemingly worked out in my case.

The only downsides for me so far have been that I have to deal with things normal people deal with all the time but I guess I’ve never had to. Like watching Netflix seemingly like a really great idea over working if you’re tired, getting caught up in something interesting, staying up late because you’re into what you’re doing, things like that.

Any updates on your selegiline use for dopamine boost?

 

[Anonymon]

Any updates on your selegiline use for dopamine boost?

I ran into some problems when it combined with the T4 I was taking, so I stopped. I’ll probably go back to using it at some point in an anti aging way that I won’t ‘feel’ much from, but at the time it kept giving me diarrhea. Mentally I never felt anything bad from it. If I come off T4 I might try it again too. Admittedly after a while though, I was kind of scared that maybe I’d adapt to it and be screwed. Not that it ever happened at all. No withdrawal, either. I didn’t feel quite as great without it but that’s basically just going back to how I was, which wasn’t bad or anything.

For anti aging I would still recommend it.