TRT without the use of Aromatase Inhibitors

[Howardb]

. ...young men are walking around with E2 levels around 75-90. ...Can anyone explain how someone as smart as Dr. Rouzier can get this so wrong? Anyone? Dr. Crisler? I’m legitamately baffled and dying to know the answer.

Dr Crisler seems to have addressed this, at least to some extent, in earlier post #109
"That is only if you run the invalid immunoassay test, which greatly overestimates the actual serum concentration."

 

[JimBob]

Very interesting, though not entirely surprising considering their rapport, apparent mutual respect, and Jay's business mind. I wonder how well they'll do. Obviously the podcast provides a ton of valuable information, and I for one love it. But both guys have naysayers, given Nichols' polarizing approach and Jay's aggressive personality.

Here is an email I got from Jay. Given his off-putting tone/attitude, I wonder if Doc Nichols isn't making a mistake with this. I asked Jay if there would be diagnostic equipment at his office. Here's his answer:

"Eventually, we will have everything.

But it will be a slow and gradual process.

Most of the people I will be working with, will be leaving their current QUACK to be #UNFUCKED.

I will not be working with many newbies and people/patients who are clueless. Those folks can continue on with their quacks until they do some homework and wake the fuck up."


To Your Ultimate Health,

Jay Campbell

 

[bkb33]

Here is an email I got from Jay. Given his off-putting tone/attitude, I wonder if Doc Nichols isn't making a mistake with this. I asked Jay if there would be diagnostic equipment at his office. Here's his answer:

"Eventually, we will have everything.

But it will be a slow and gradual process.

Most of the people I will be working with, will be leaving their current QUACK to be #UNFUCKED.

I will not be working with many newbies and people/patients who are clueless. Those folks can continue on with their quacks until they do some homework and wake the have sex up."


To Your Ultimate Health,

Jay Campbell

He's an odd guy, for sure, but I'm willing to overlook his quirks considering all the valuable knowledge he puts out -- a real service that's helped me and many others. That said, I'm not positive I'd want to work with him. Empathy and kindness are important traits for a provider to possess. Dr. Nichols, however, seems to bring a lot to the table -- I'd definitely consider working with him.

 

[Vince Carter]

Ive noticed how quickly Jay and Dr Nichols have aligned themselves and I wouldn't be surprised if there is an alliance. Too I've noticed Nichols doing one episode of the roundtable from his car...so if they get in business together I wouldn't be surprised. but to keep this on topic Jay really presents, IMVHO, a high Estrogen content. People don't generally act this way outside of Estrogen influence and this talk about letting it go high...may be he doesn't see it in himself. But this kind of attitude just screams Estrogen as far as I can tell. Nichols, too, and I just can't figure out if it's Estrogen, or that I just don't like them.
But too that point as well I stopped giving Jay any worthwhile attention when he started naming plain guys like us on the forums as being...crazy, I guess in a word to describe what he thought of us.

 

[bkb33]

but to keep this on topic Jay really presents, IMVHO, a high Estrogen content. People don't generally act this way outside of Estrogen influence and this talk about letting it go high...may be he doesn't see it in himself. But this kind of attitude just screams Estrogen as far as I can tell. Nichols, too, and I just can't figure out if it's Estrogen, or that I just don't like them.

Interesting. Wouldn't their aggression/combativeness typically be associated with higher T, or are you referring more to pettiness? Or am I just getting this entirely wrong?

 

[Nashtide]

Ive noticed how quickly Jay and Dr Nichols have aligned themselves and I wouldn't be surprised if there is an alliance. Too I've noticed Nichols doing one episode of the roundtable from his car...so if they get in business together I wouldn't be surprised. but to keep this on topic Jay really presents, IMVHO, a high Estrogen content. People don't generally act this way outside of Estrogen influence and this talk about letting it go high...may be he doesn't see it in himself. But this kind of attitude just screams Estrogen as far as I can tell. Nichols, too, and I just can't figure out if it's Estrogen, or that I just don't like them.
But too that point as well I stopped giving Jay any worthwhile attention when he started naming plain guys like us on the forums as being...crazy, I guess in a word to describe what he thought of us.

Lol! I think the same thing when guys on here argue and get really butthurt when you don’t agree with their opinions. I always think...time to have your estrogen checked!

 

[captain]

The aggression/combativeness can be explained by watching the video posted where Dr. Shippen explains what happens to other hormones when you add TRT. The changes in Prolactin, DHEA, Dopamine and Serotonin would be where you would look. I recall that I read Estrogen is needed to make Melatonin and Serotonin. Prolactin increases with low DHEA from elevated TRH.

 

[Nashtide]

Interesting. Wouldn't their aggression/combativeness typically be associated with higher T, or are you referring more to pettiness? Or am I just getting this entirely wrong?

Generally, an Alpha male doesn’t get all emotional and excited like Jay. They are the coolest, most calm character in the room. Think James Bond. Think a world class surgeon. Jay is way out there and that is not what anyone on TRT wants to behave like.

 

[Vince Carter]

The Estrogen part I personally identify with and I always say in discussion with my Dr is that I'm kind of abrasive or upfront in my personality but when my Estrogen was so high I was just keyed up all the time. Not in a roid rage kind of way, but extreme PMS, if you will. I was easily upset, didn't handle minor things very well, and so forth. And I get that from watching Jay, its identifiable to me.
Now granted I've totally changed my hormonal landscape from the time, having drastically cut my T dose but primarily my E caused me so many problems when it was the way it was.

 

[Gman86]

I completely agree with you guys. Before TRT, I thought roid rage and having a short fuse was from jacked up testosterone levels. But now that I’ve done about 10 lifetimes of research on the stuff, and obviously been on testosterone myself, I’ve learned that having optimal testosterone levels should do the opposite of “jack you up”. It in fact is a very calming hormone. It makes you the opposite of irritable and short tempered. It allows you to be calm, cool and collected. What I now think “roid rage” is, is too high of estrogen, and possibly prolactin as well. High estrogen is what I have found to make me personally, and many others very irritable, short tempered, “bitchy”, defensive, moody, etc. But I do think the elevated testosterone plays a role obviously. It makes it so you’re basically mixing an alpha male with all those adjectives, instead of someone with low testosterone with all those qualities. A guy with low testosterone might not express, or act on feeling those ways as a person with jacked up testosterone might.

But it is funny, I think the exact same thing all the time when I see guys get so defensive and butt hurt so quickly, and start lashing out, like dr. Nichols and Jay, just for a few examples. Or some guys on the forum that start lashing out on here. I just think, man, ur acting like a little girl right now, time to get that estrogen checked! Lol. Imo, when your testosterone and estrogen are in balance, you’re able to let things roll off your shoulders easier and maintain composure. But obviously personality plays a big part as well, and the effects of testosterone and estrogen can only go so far.

 

[Gman86]

Generally, an Alpha male doesn’t get all emotional and excited like Jay. They are the coolest, most calm character in the room. Think James Bond. Think a world class surgeon. Jay is way out there and that is not what anyone on TRT wants to behave like.

Exactly. James Bond is a perfect example.

As far as jay goes, he’s always been “out there” personality wise, but lately he has been lashing out way more, as seen in his emails. He seems way more defensive, and just tolerating other people’s opinions less. I know that since Dr. Nichols has come onto the round table, that jay has started on testosterone cream, applied to his testicles, and has dropped the injections. I also assume that he is letting his E2 elevate, as Dr. Nichols also supports this. So I was just thinking that since his irrationale behavior correlates perfectly with him changing his protocol and possibly letting his E2 elevate, his behavior could be due to elevated E2, or just due to changing his protocol and his body trying to find homeostasis. Or, he could of been this irritable, defensive and volatile this whole time, and we just never got to see this side of him.

I just think it’s so ironic that jay and dr Nichols are preaching this whole letting E2 elevate as high as it wants to thing, and meanwhile they are both walking/ talking examples of high estrogen symptoms. I’m not saying their behavior is 100% from high E2, I’m more saying that I think it would be hilarious if high E2 is what’s influencing them both to behave the way they do, basically like little girls that aren’t getting their way.

 

[bkb33]

Exactly. James Bond is a perfect example.

As far as jay goes, he’s always been “out there” personality wise, but lately he has been lashing out way more, as seen in his emails. He seems way more defensive, and just tolerating other people’s opinions less. I know that since Dr. Nichols has come onto the round table, that jay has started on testosterone cream, applied to his testicles, and has dropped the injections. I also assume that he is letting his E2 elevate, as Dr. Nichols also supports this. So I was just thinking that since his irrationale behavior correlates perfectly with him changing his protocol and possibly letting his E2 elevate, his behavior could be due to elevated E2, or just due to changing his protocol and his body trying to find homeostasis. Or, he could of been this irritable, defensive and volatile this whole time, and we just never got to see this side of him.

I just think it’s so ironic that jay and dr Nichols are preaching this whole letting E2 elevate as high as it wants to thing, and meanwhile they are both walking/ talking examples of high estrogen symptoms. I’m not saying their behavior is 100% from high E2, I’m more saying that I think it would be hilarious if high E2 is what’s influencing them both to behave the way they do, basically like little girls that aren’t getting their way.

That is kind of funny. I am starting my T protocol soon, and I will be using the trans-scrotal cream application method. I chose this method because it is more convenient; I am often on the road for work. I do not have experience with T injections, but I will report back to let everyone know how it goes (and how my bloodwork is affected in 6 weeks -- hopefully DHT/HCT won't be too bad).

Maybe by that point I'll also be a "walking/talking example of high estrogen symptoms" Anyone willing to share their experience with this application method? Pros/cons?

 

[Nashtide]

That is kind of funny. I am starting my T protocol soon, and I will be using the trans-scrotal cream application method. I chose this method because it is more convenient; I am often on the road for work. I do not have experience with T injections, but I will report back to let everyone know how it goes (and how my bloodwork is affected in 6 weeks -- hopefully DHT/HCT won't be too bad).

Maybe by that point I'll also be a "walking/talking example of high estrogen symptoms" Anyone willing to share their experience with this application method? Pros/cons?

I have no experience with creams, but I would be concerned about my wife coming in contact with the cream. Also the absorption rate is different for every guy.

 

[Sean Mosher]

I guess what would be of utmost important in this whole discussion would be what was brought up earlier............if all those studies that Rouzier and Jay are referencing were done using the ImmunoAssay / the wrong testing method, then how could we possibly draw accurate conclusions from them?
It would be interesting to ask Dr. Rouzier if he even tests estradiol using liquid chromatography and if he does, why reference studies using a test he no longer employs?
I'm all for this discussion as long as it stays civil, which in this thread thankfully it has.
Always interested in learning more!

 

[JimBob]

I guess what would be of utmost important in this whole discussion would be what was brought up earlier............if all those studies that Rouzier and Jay are referencing were done using the ImmunoAssay / the wrong testing method, then how could we possibly draw accurate conclusions from them?
It would be interesting to ask Dr. Rouzier if he even tests estradiol using liquid chromatography and if he does, why reference studies using a test he no longer employs?
I'm all for this discussion as long as it stays civil, which in this thread thankfully it has.
Always interested in learning more!

How would one contact Rouzier to ask him? I sent an email to one of his sites, but I'm not sure he'll ever see it. I'd really like to see some of the guys here post these questions at the TOT Roundtable chat room, when Dr. Nichols, et al, are all right there. That's my plan, anyway. I'd also like their rationale for not using HCG, when we have LH receptor sites all over the body. I guess I could pose the immunoassay question to Jay via email, but I don't think the response would be too helpful.

 

[bkb33]

How would one contact Rouzier to ask him? I sent an email to one of his sites, but I'm not sure he'll ever see it. I'd really like to see some of the guys here post these questions at the TOT Roundtable chat room, when Dr. Nichols, et al, are all right there. That's my plan, anyway. I'd also like their rationale for not using HCG, when we have LH receptor sites all over the body. I guess I could pose the immunoassay question to Jay via email, but I don't think the response would be too helpful.

In a dream world, we'd get Nichols, Rouzier, Crisler, and Saya (anyone else?) on a TOT Roundtable episode to debate this topic.

 

[YBWV]

That is kind of funny. I am starting my T protocol soon, and I will be using the trans-scrotal cream application method. I chose this method because it is more convenient; I am often on the road for work. I do not have experience with T injections, but I will report back to let everyone know how it goes (and how my bloodwork is affected in 6 weeks -- hopefully DHT/HCT won't be too bad).

Maybe by that point I'll also be a "walking/talking example of high estrogen symptoms" Anyone willing to share their experience with this application method? Pros/cons?

In your position I would consider (at least initially) applying the cream to differing sites and not using 100% of the product direct to the Scrotum.
Maybe 1/3rd to the scrotum and the remainder elsewhere.

Depending on absorbency and the level of 5-ar activity you may risk sending DHT disproportionately high by applying all of the cream to the scrotum. If you're not getting relief of symptoms then you would have the flexibility to change the percentages.

Good luck with your new therapy.

 

[equel]

Per Dr. Crisler's request, I shared his comments with some other folks. Here's what I got back in return:
"LOL.

There is no such thing as “Top of Normal Range”.

John doesn't understand this stuff anymore.

We have moved into a diff era now.

Move into the Big Boy space is my best advice to you.

This week EVERYTHING WILL CHANGE!"


To Your Ultimate Health,

Jay Campbell

What the fuck is up with Jay? "Cristler dont understand this stuff anymore", WHAT? John is a DOCTOR, what are you, Jay? What kind of education do you have?

My god, he is such a fucking dork. I sense high e2 symptoms all over the place.

 

[vibnad]

Just watched the video with Dr Rouzier. I'm not going to be disrespectful but i cannot take any merit from what he has said. He seems to think that the more estradiol, the better. Absolutely bizarre. No mention of the importance of shbg either. I still hold DR john crisler as the most credible trt physician.

 

[HealthMan]

TRT is an evolving science. We will have difference of opinions for a long time. You have to choose a doctor you trust and stick with him. My doctor is Dr Saya and I trust him 100%.