TOO MUCH T3 FROM NDT = JOINT PAIN?

[mcs]

Latest labs (last dose of 2.50 grains (162.50mg) NDT taken only about 6h prior to draw):

TSH:1.23 ref range: 0.450-4.500uIU/mL
FT3: 5.00 ref range: 2.0-4.4pg/mL
FT4: 1.60 ref range: 0.82-1.77ng/dL

Anyone notice that too much T3 from desiccated thyroid causes a flareup in joint pain? Is a 5.0 level causing this - or is this just a transient elevation due to higher serum levels because I dosed only a few hours before my blood draw?

 

[Vince]

I've never noticed any joint pain from too high of levels of free t3. What I did notice was very low. LDL cholesterol when getting my free t3 levels very high.

My levels have been much higher than yours.

 

[Vince]

What is the Link Between Fatigue, Joint Pain and Thyroid?

People are told that hypothyroidism may cause weight gain, constipation, dry skin and hair loss. A link between joint pain and thyroid is rarely made.

www.peoplespharmacy.com

 

[VacationMan]

Didn't mention what your reverse T3 levels. For me (Hashimotos), I have to run high FT3 to overcome the effects of high RT3. Haven't noticed any joint pain. Doc just told me to be on the lookout for being "jittery" (like you've had too much caffeine).

 

[Ribeye]

Latest labs (last dose of 2.50 grains (162.50mg) NDT taken only about 6h prior to draw):

TSH:1.23 ref range: 0.450-4.500uIU/mL
FT3: 5.00 ref range: 2.0-4.4pg/mL
FT4: 1.60 ref range: 0.82-1.77ng/dL

Anyone notice that too much T3 from desiccated thyroid causes a flareup in joint pain? Is a 5.0 level causing this - or is this just a transient elevation due to higher serum levels because I dosed only a few hours before my blood draw?

If you have not been tested for Hashimoto's hypothyroid, I would suggest you get the antibody test done to see if you are spiking those. Hashimoto's can and does cause joint aching and pain. I have had it for over a decade. I would intermittently get joint pain while taking Synthroid. I was always in the "therapeutic window" but always felt like crap. Tired, achy, and no desire to do anything but sit and watch the world go by. All the while the endocrinologists, the supposed expert, would tell me "its not your thyroid" despite continuing to have other symptoms as well including constipation to diarrhea, thin hair, cold constantly and weight gain by looking at food. When I finally found (after three endocrinologists) someone who was willing to treat me like a patient and not a recipe from a cook book, I got started on desiccated thyroid. They drove my free T3 a little above the therapeutic window, my free T4 a to the low end of the window, and TSH also to the low end of the therapeutic window. Basically, my thyroid has a very low load being placed on it, which causes it to not have to work very hard. It seems like this also causes the immune antibody reaction to be suppressed since the thyroid isn't producing so much of the hormone that causes the antibody reaction. Consequently, I don't seem to be getting the achy joints, and random joint and connecting tissue pain any longer, at least not nearly like I used to get. In addition since T3 is really what carries the workload for your body, (T4 is converted to T3) I have more energy, and no longer suffer from the symptoms of hypothyroidism. We are all individuals and you may well be different. However, if you have been on Synthroid and didn't find it to be the medication that helps you, I would give the desiccated thyroid a real chance.

 

[VacationMan]

I had a completely different experience with NDT. Started on NatureThroid...then a shortage occurred. Transitioned to WP Thyroid...then it was recalled. Ended up going with Armour Thyroid.

I could never get T4, T3 and TSH in range with NDT drugs. I have high RT3 and very elevated antibodies [Hashimotos], so I need to drive FT3 above range to null the effects of RT3. With NDT drugs, you get what you get and that's what you get as far as dosing of T4/T3 is concerned. In order for me to get FT3 where it needed to be using NDT drugs, I also had to drive FT4 way too high.

I feel -way- better on the synthetic T4 / T3 drugs, especially since the doc and I can adjust the dose of each drug individually as needed. For now, my FT4 is in range and my FT3 runs just above the high watermark. TSH sitting at a comfortable < 1.0. No achy joints and I'm finally starting to gradually lose weight now that my metabolism is working again. Took me 4 doctors and 5 years to get to this point.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd start with synthetic drugs to get things leveled out (it's a process), then gauge the dose of T4/T3 drugs against the amount of each within NDT doses.

Everyone responds differently though. This is just my experience with NDT vs synthetic thyroid drugs.

 

[mcs]

If you have not been tested for Hashimoto's hypothyroid, I would suggest you get the antibody test done to see if you are spiking those. Hashimoto's can and does cause joint aching and pain. I have had it for over a decade. I would intermittently get joint pain while taking Synthroid. I was always in the "therapeutic window" but always felt like crap. Tired, achy, and no desire to do anything but sit and watch the world go by. All the while the endocrinologists, the supposed expert, would tell me "its not your thyroid" despite continuing to have other symptoms as well including constipation to diarrhea, thin hair, cold constantly and weight gain by looking at food. When I finally found (after three endocrinologists) someone who was willing to treat me like a patient and not a recipe from a cook book, I got started on desiccated thyroid. They drove my free T3 a little above the therapeutic window, my free T4 a to the low end of the window, and TSH also to the low end of the therapeutic window. Basically, my thyroid has a very low load being placed on it, which causes it to not have to work very hard. It seems like this also causes the immune antibody reaction to be suppressed since the thyroid isn't producing so much of the hormone that causes the antibody reaction. Consequently, I don't seem to be getting the achy joints, and random joint and connecting tissue pain any longer, at least not nearly like I used to get. In addition since T3 is really what carries the workload for your body, (T4 is converted to T3) I have more energy, and no longer suffer from the symptoms of hypothyroidism. We are all individuals and you may well be different. However, if you have been on Synthroid and didn't find it to be the medication that helps you, I would give the desiccated thyroid a real chance.

Never have had an indication of Hashi's from dozens of past labs and ultrasounds and as I indicated, I am on NDT, not Synthroid.

 

[mcs]

Didn't mention what your reverse T3 levels. For me (Hashimotos), I have to run high FT3 to overcome the effects of high RT3. Haven't noticed any joint pain. Doc just told me to be on the lookout for being "jittery" (like you've had too much caffeine).

Didn't get rT3 tested this time, but I usually hover around 19 (but that was at a lower dose of NDT). Will test again soon.

What is the Link Between Fatigue, Joint Pain and Thyroid?

People are told that hypothyroidism may cause weight gain, constipation, dry skin and hair loss. A link between joint pain and thyroid is rarely made.

www.peoplespharmacy.com

What I really am curious to know is whether too much T3 can accelerate cartilage degeneration which would give rise to OA and injuries. Maybe it's completely unrelated, but my joint and OA issues seem to have flared up after having increased my NDT dose. T3 can exert catabolic effects on bone but I wonder on cartilage.

 

[Vince]

Didn't get rT3 tested this time, but I usually hover around 19 (but that was at a lower dose of NDT). Will test again soon.

What I really am curious to know is whether too much T3 can accelerate cartilage degeneration which would give rise to OA and injuries. Maybe it's completely unrelated, but my joint and OA issues seem to have flared up after having increased my NDT dose. T3 can exert catabolic effects on bone but I wonder on cartilage.

There was a study done with women who went to menopause. if they had low TSH levels. They had a higher risk of bone loss

 

[Vince]

Found it.

Vol 14 Issue 9 p.11-12 | American Thyroid Association

After thyroidectomy for thyroid cancer, patients were often placed on levothyroxine doses that were high enough to suppress TSH levels to prevent recurrence of the cancer. Long-term suppression of TSH can result in low bone density and osteoporosis. This study evaluated potential effects of TSH...

www.thyroid.org

 

[mcs]

Found it.

Vol 14 Issue 9 p.11-12 | American Thyroid Association

After thyroidectomy for thyroid cancer, patients were often placed on levothyroxine doses that were high enough to suppress TSH levels to prevent recurrence of the cancer. Long-term suppression of TSH can result in low bone density and osteoporosis. This study evaluated potential effects of TSH...

www.thyroid.org

That one relates to TSH over-suppression. Fortunately, not my problem. In fact, my issue has been high normal TSH and trying to suppress it more by gradually increasing the dose of NDT which it appears I have done. That latest level of 1.23 is right around where I need to be.

 

[Vince]

That one relates to TSH over-suppression. Fortunately, not my problem. In fact, my issue has been high normal TSH and trying to suppress it more by gradually increasing the dose of NDT which it appears I have done. That latest level of 1.23 is right around where I need to be.

My TSH usually runs one or a bit under because I keep my free t3 levels in the high range.

I do my labs in the morning before I take my thyroid meds which helps lower my levels (should not affect TSH levels). My doctor thinks I take them before my labs.

 

[mcs]

My TSH usually runs one or a bit under because I keep my free t3 levels in the high range.

I do my labs in the morning before I take my thyroid meds which helps lower my levels (should not affect TSH levels). My doctor thinks I take them before my labs.

When you say to keep your FT3 levels high, how high? I, too, have lately been doing my labs the same morning I take my NDT dose to see how the medication is working. And it is working as I can tell from the labs I posted on above. I guess I shouldn't be concerned with being a bit over range on T3 if I'm not experiencing the typical hyperthyroid symptoms (i.e. tachycardia, palpitations, hair loss, anxiety, insomnia).

 

[Vince]

When you say to keep your FT3 levels high, how high? I, too, have lately been doing my labs the same morning I take my NDT dose to see how the medication is working. And it is working as I can tell from the labs I posted on above. I guess I shouldn't be concerned with being a bit over range on T3 if I'm not experiencing the typical hyperthyroid symptoms (i.e. tachycardia, palpitations, hair loss, anxiety, insomnia).

So do you take your thyroid meds before labs or after labs?

 

[mcs]

So do you take your thyroid meds before labs or after labs?

Have been doing it before for the last several labs this year to measure the effect of the dose.

 

[Vince]

Have been doing it before for the last several labs this year to measure the effect of the dose.

So you're taking it when your levels are at the highest. The levels go lower throughout the day. At least you're free t4 and free t3 levels will go down. So definitely you have nothing to worry about.

 

[mcs]

Observation - Progressive increase in blood pressure/pulse averages:

last 12 mos: 127/79/63
last 6 mos: 126/80/64
last 3 mos: 128/82/68
last mo: 131/84/67

causes: increasing NDT>increased serum T3 = elevated BP/pulse?

 

[Vince]

Observation - Progressive increase in blood pressure/pulse averages:

last 12 mos: 127/79/63
last 6 mos: 126/80/64
last 3 mos: 128/82/68
last mo: 131/84/67

causes: increasing NDT>increased serum T3 = elevated BP/pulse?

Do you check your blood pressure and pulse everyday at the same time? I would also add in body weight.

 

[mcs]

Do you check your blood pressure and pulse everyday at the same time? I would also add in body weight.

Yes.

 

[Keepfit1]

Latest labs (last dose of 2.50 grains (162.50mg) NDT taken only about 6h prior to draw):

TSH:1.23 ref range: 0.450-4.500uIU/mL
FT3: 5.00 ref range: 2.0-4.4pg/mL
FT4: 1.60 ref range: 0.82-1.77ng/dL

Anyone notice that too much T3 from desiccated thyroid causes a flareup in joint pain? Is a 5.0 level causing this - or is this just a transient elevation due to higher serum levels because I dosed only a few hours before my blood draw?

Testing 6 hours after taking it will spike, my understanding if you take NDT on monday morning you should do bloods no later than 9am on Tuesday, or some split the dose monday am and some PM.