Thinking about starting trt

[ivkonst2017]

You stated do not start lower than 120 or higher than 150 mg/week

Yes, I suggest a starting dose of 120-150mg at the OP's choice because nobody can tell him exactly what his best dosage will be. From what Ive seen most guys feel best without side effects at this interval of dosages. Also Im confident the chance for someone to get dangerous side effects at this dose are very miniscure and he will be making regular blood work especially anyway. If a health harm can happen from 120mg testosterone it will take at least months. You start to seem to me like an endocrinologist fear mongering TRT will cause heart attack. Dont forget we have a six months study at 600mg.

From what Ive seen and the people I have contact with nobody feels most optimal at 100mg, I even cannot think of someone on 120 and I talk about tens of persons on TRT I know personally and tens of persons whose stories Ive followed on fb groups and forums to learn something from them.

Coming from the same guy with high SHBG 50 nmol/L that never had even tested his FT using the most accurate assays.....

I dont care about the most accurate essays and will tell you why. First I dont have access to them in my country. Second free testosterone specially is a relative value that is a giving reference. And free testosterone is a function of total testosterone, SHBG and albumin. So when I say 25-40ng/dl free testosterone I mean the old version of the calculator, because if I use another measurement method this numbers 25-40 will change. The people Ive observed to have felt best in that range use the old version of the calculator or the old measurement methods, so the reference is for these methods. I work with numbers and large samples of data every day so allow me to understand well how data and numbers should be analyzed.

My doc says the old calculator is accurate enough for the needs of guiding a TRT therapy and at the end the measurement methods of the 3 variables are relatively unified in most countries in the world.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Fuck the current reference range.....low end used to be 350 and high end 1200 ng/dL!

Never have I stated on here that one needs to stay within a reference range.

Comes down to the individual and where one feels best while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential sides and keeping blood markers healthy long-term!

So Ive been stating the same all this time

 

[madman]

Yes, I suggest a starting dose of 120-150mg at the OP's choice because nobody can tell him exactly what his best dosage will be. From what Ive seen most guys feel best without side effects at this interval of dosages. Also Im confident the chance for someone to get dangerous side effects at this dose are very miniscure and he will be making regular blood work especially anyway. If a health harm can happen from 120mg testosterone it will take at least months. You start to seem to me like an endocrinologist fear mongering TRT will cause heart attack. Dont forget we have a six months study at 600mg.

From what Ive seen and the people I have contact with nobody feels most optimal at 100mg, I even cannot think of someone on 120 and I talk about tens of persons on TRT I know personally and tens of persons whose stories Ive followed on fb groups and forums to learn something from them.



I dont care about the most accurate essays and will tell you why. First I dont have access to them in my country. Second free testosterone specially is a relative value that is a giving reference. And free testosterone is a function of total testosterone, SHBG and albumin. So when I say 25-40ng/dl free testosterone I mean the old version of the calculator, because if I use another measurement method this numbers 25-40 will change. The people Ive observed to have felt best in that range use the old version of the calculator or the old measurement methods, so the reference is for these methods. I work with numbers and large samples of data every day so allow me to understand well how data and numbers should be analyzed.

My doc says the old calculator is accurate enough for the needs of guiding a TRT therapy and at the end the measurement methods of the 3 variables are relatively unified in most countries in the world.

Yes, I suggest a starting dose of 120-150mg at the OP's choice because nobody can tell him exactly what his best dosage will be. From what Ive seen most guys feel best without side effects at this interval of dosages. Also Im confident the chance for someone to get dangerous side effects at this dose are very miniscure and he will be making regular blood work especially anyway. If a health harm can happen from 120mg testosterone it will take at least months. You start to seem to me like an endocrinologist fear mongering TRT will cause heart attack. Dont forget we have a six months study at 600mg.

You are starting to sound like a broken record!

Again there is no fear-mongering going on here and if anything you are out to lunch on some of the advice you are dishing out on here.

Again nowhere did I ever state that running a TT 1500-2000ng/dL or FT 30-80 ng/dL is dangerous/harmful let alone would cause any long-term health issue.

Knumbskull!




From what Ive seen and the people I have contact with nobody feels most optimal at 100mg, I even cannot think of someone on 120 and I talk about tens of persons on TRT I know personally and tens of persons whose stories Ive followed on fb groups and forums to learn something from them.

He would be starting on 100 mg T/week split (50mg every 3.5 days) for 6 weeks until blood work is done to see where said protocol will have trough TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, and other blood markers let alone how he reacts to a T only protocol.

Is anyone stating that he needs to stay at that dose let alone it is dangerous if he injects more.....give your head a f**kn shake!

Unfortunately, many of these other forums you lurk on are full of men that were jacked upon T from the get-go let alone blast/cruisers.....LOL.




Dont forget we have a six months study at 600mg.

Going to break this down for you.....get back to you on this as I already picked that apart in another thread!




I dont care about the most accurate essays and will tell you why. First I dont have access to them in my country. Second free testosterone specially is a relative value that is a giving reference. And free testosterone is a function of total testosterone, SHBG and albumin. So when I say 25-40ng/dl free testosterone I mean the old version of the calculator, because if I use another measurement method this numbers 25-40 will change. The people Ive observed to have felt best in that range use the old version of the calculator or the old measurement methods, so the reference is for these methods. I work with numbers and large samples of data every day so allow me to understand well how data and numbers should be analyzed....

My doc says the old calculator is accurate enough for the needs of guiding a TRT therapy and at the end the measurement methods of the 3 variables are relatively unified in most countries in the world.

Unfortunately, this is what many fail to understand including you!

*Measuring FT is technically challenging and shows high variability.

Much more when it comes to SHBG: T binding.

My reply from a previous thread:

This is where I stand when it comes to testing FT!

I would not rely on the piss poor direct immunoassay let alone outdated calculated methods especially in cases of altered SHBG

Although the newer cFTZ algorithm (TruT) should give fairly consistent results I would prefer to rely on direct testing using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration especially in cases of altered SHBG.

The EAM (cFTZ) appears to be an accurate and testable model for calculating free testosterone levels, but this model needs further validation in large populations.

This will be a part of the ongoing phase II.

As I am patiently waiting on the completion of Phase II for the TruT (cFTZ) Algorithm let alone standardization and harmonized reference ranges for Free testosterone which is in the works as we speak.


The new dynamic model leads to the reconsideration of several dogmas related to testosterone's binding to SHBG and has important physiologic and clinical implications.

*First, the fraction of circulating testosterone that is free is substantially greater (2.9±0.4%) than has been generally assumed (% cFTV 1.5±0.4%).

*Second, percent FT is not significantly related to total testosterone over a wide range of total testosterone concentrations. However, the percent FT declines as SHBG concentrations increase, although it does not decline as precipitously as predicted by Vermeulen's model. Due to the allostery between the two binding sites, SHBG is able to regulate FT levels in a much larger dynamic range.


Key points:

EAM (cFTZ) SHBG: T binding

*Intra-dimer complex allostery suggests that SHBG can regulate FT fraction over a wide range of total testosterone concentrations without getting saturated.

*Indeed, it was found that percent FT calculated using the new model changed very modestly over a wide range of total testosterone concentrations.

*Due to the allostery between the two binding sites, SHBG is able to regulate FT levels in a much larger dynamic range.


Unfortunately, this is too much for you to digest!

You are this same guy.....no?

post #2/7

Short vs long esters

Hello. I very much hope the great people and expertise in this forum to be able to help me. And my case is quite complicated. As described in my other thread I transferred from sustanon to enanthate 9 weeks ago. I felt good in week 5, but now I feel bad and I feel bad in a very specific way...

www.excelmale.com

4 months ago.

Coming from the guy running a trough TT 1500 ng/dL, SHBG 30 nmol/L which would easily have your trough FT through the roof.....most likely 50+ ng/dL!

Never gave your protocols a fighting chance let alone clueless about how exogenous T works.

Clueless as to where his FT levels truly sat as he never had it tested using the most accurate assays.

 

[madman]

Yes, I suggest a starting dose of 120-150mg at the OP's choice because nobody can tell him exactly what his best dosage will be. From what Ive seen most guys feel best without side effects at this interval of dosages. Also Im confident the chance for someone to get dangerous side effects at this dose are very miniscure and he will be making regular blood work especially anyway. If a health harm can happen from 120mg testosterone it will take at least months. You start to seem to me like an endocrinologist fear mongering TRT will cause heart attack. Dont forget we have a six months study at 600mg.

From what Ive seen and the people I have contact with nobody feels most optimal at 100mg, I even cannot think of someone on 120 and I talk about tens of persons on TRT I know personally and tens of persons whose stories Ive followed on fb groups and forums to learn something from them.



I dont care about the most accurate essays and will tell you why. First I dont have access to them in my country. Second free testosterone specially is a relative value that is a giving reference. And free testosterone is a function of total testosterone, SHBG and albumin. So when I say 25-40ng/dl free testosterone I mean the old version of the calculator, because if I use another measurement method this numbers 25-40 will change. The people Ive observed to have felt best in that range use the old version of the calculator or the old measurement methods, so the reference is for these methods. I work with numbers and large samples of data every day so allow me to understand well how data and numbers should be analyzed.

My doc says the old calculator is accurate enough for the needs of guiding a TRT therapy and at the end the measurement methods of the 3 variables are relatively unified in most countries in the world.

Dont forget we have a six months study at 600mg.

What that one and the one posted below that many on those bro forums tend to dick ride on!

LMFAO!


post #18

Has anyone tried this method? Try it if you don't feel good

Some people say they only feel good for a couple weeks when they change their dosage, and then once blood stabilizes they feel like shit again Well try this, If you take 50mg twice a week, take 70 and 30 one week, next week 60-40, next week 50-50 then 70-30 again and repeat I'm coming into...

www.excelmale.com

Tropicaldaze1950 stated:

The only study of supraphysiologic testosterone was dosed up to 600 mg, weekly, and though it was a small study, no ill effects were manifested.


My reply:

What the one with 43 men.....oh I mean 40 men.....damn I meant the 21 men on testosterone!


Yes at 600 mg T/week for 10 weeks and unfortunately testosterone levels will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) so how many weeks are the 21 men at steady-state!

Definitely not a full 10.


Treatment

The men received either 600 mg of testosterone enanthate in sesame oil or placebo intramuscularly each week for 10 weeks in the Clinical Research Center. This dose is six times higher than the dose usually given as replacement therapy in men with hypogonadism and is therefore supraphysiologic. Doses as high as 300 mg per week have been given to normal men for 16 to 24 weeks without major toxic effects.34


Notice that the dose used in the study is 6X higher than the average dose given (100 mg/week) to men on trt.

At least you have some short-term studies using doses in the 300 mg/week range for 16-24 weeks without major toxic effects......keyword being major!

You and I both very well know that if a majority of men were put on 300 mg T/week (lower-end supraphysiological) for trt that they would be struggling with sides let alone TT/FT levels would be through the roof.

TRT is long-term.



The take-home point!

Our results in no way justify the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids in sports, because, with extended use, such drugs have potentially serious adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, prostate, lipid metabolism, and insulin sensitivity. Moreover, the use of any performance-enhancing agent in sports raises serious ethical issues. Our findings do, however, raise the possibility that the short-term administration of androgens may have beneficial effects in immobilized patients, during space travel, and in patients with cancer-related cachexia, a disease caused by the human immunodeficiency virus, or other chronic wasting disorders.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Is anyone stating that he needs to stay at that dose let alone it is dangerous if he injects more.....give your head a f**kn shake!

So first keep the respectful tone please!
Also I dont have so much time to address all your points, so will do for some of them:

He would be starting on 100 mg T/week split (50mg every 3.5 days) for 6 weeks until blood work is done to see where said protocol will have trough TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, and other blood markers let alone how he reacts to a T only protocol.

Ok, so the whole argument is that I suggested him starting at 20-30mg higher initially because I've seen almost no guys be optimal at 100(I know there are such guys out there) and the majority I've seen have their doses a bit higher. Obviously he will start at 100mg because this is his only option, but I suggested he may need to go higher and your first opinion in the thread sounded to me like going higher would be supraphysiological and dangerous.

Coming from the guy running a trough TT 1500 ng/dL, SHBG 30 nmol/L which would easily have your trough FT through the roof.....most likely 50+ ng/dL!

Never gave your protocols a fighting chance let alone clueless about how exogenous T works.

Clueless as to where his FT levels truly sat as he never had it tested using the most accurate assays.

Sorry but this is an argument against your pieces of advice. I gave my protocol more than enough time to work(yes 10 weeks is more than enough FOR ME) and it didnt work. I'm happy I didnt listen to you., discussed it with my doctor and changed back to sustanon. The improvement was massive and swift, in 3-4 weeks I felt way better and in 6 weeks as good as TRT can make me feel. I know my body and I know I didnt need to waste my time for waiting for a doomed protocol that would never work for me, it is a WASTE OF TIME. I dont tell other guys they shouldnt wait more. I know I dont have to wait more for my protocol changes. Enanthate and cypionate dont work for me, so no protocol with them stand a chance. I do good only on sustanon, why - nobody knows but Im happy with it and will keep pinning it EOD in the forseable future. The whole point for switiching to enanthate was to reduce injection frequency. It didnt work and I came back to what works for me, case closed. If you have noticed I dont run around telling guys stop using enanthate, sustanon is the REAL shit(I suggested that to only 2-3 people to try for whom the medium single esters also didnt seem to work well, or maybe the reason was different, just a suggestion something they can try).

As for the super accurate modern free t measurement, why you continue to mock me I havent checked my FT with that method, you expect me to catch a plane to USA to make that test or what? I've optimized my TRT well enough without this super accurate free test method, so I dont really care where it sits. For my needs total t, shbg and albumin are enough. If the OP has access to this test he can try it, I havent suggested against that, but Im not sure which doctor will be able to work with that numbers.

 

[madman]

So first keep the respectful tone please!
Also I dont have so much time to address all your points, so will do for some of them:



Ok, so the whole argument is that I suggested him starting at 20-30mg higher initially because I've seen almost no guys be optimal at 100(I know there are such guys out there) and the majority I've seen have their doses a bit higher. Obviously he will start at 100mg because this is his only option, but I suggested he may need to go higher and your first opinion in the thread sounded to me like going higher would be supraphysiological and dangerous.



Sorry but this is an argument against your pieces of advice. I gave my protocol more than enough time to work(yes 10 weeks is more than enough FOR ME) and it didnt work. I'm happy I didnt listen to you., discussed it with my doctor and changed back to sustanon. The improvement was massive and swift, in 3-4 weeks I felt way better and in 6 weeks as good as TRT can make me feel. I know my body and I know I didnt need to waste my time for waiting for a doomed protocol that would never work for me, it is a WASTE OF TIME. I dont tell other guys they shouldnt wait more. I know I dont have to wait more for my protocol changes. Enanthate and cypionate dont work for me, so no protocol with them stand a chance. I do good only on sustanon, why - nobody knows but Im happy with it and will keep pinning it EOD in the forseable future. The whole point for switiching to enanthate was to reduce injection frequency. It didnt work and I came back to what works for me, case closed. If you have noticed I dont run around telling guys stop using enanthate, sustanon is the REAL shit(I suggested that to only 2-3 people to try for whom the medium single esters also didnt seem to work well, or maybe the reason was different, just a suggestion something they can try).

As for the super accurate modern free t measurement, why you continue to mock me I havent checked my FT with that method, you expect me to catch a plane to USA to make that test or what? I've optimized my TRT well enough without this super accurate free test method, so I dont really care where it sits. For my needs total t, shbg and albumin are enough. If the OP has access to this test he can try it, I havent suggested against that, but Im not sure which doctor will be able to work with that numbers.

Ok, so the whole argument is that I suggested him starting at 20-30mg higher initially because I've seen almost no guys be optimal at 100(I know there are such guys out there) and the majority I've seen have their doses a bit higher. Obviously he will start at 100mg because this is his only option, but I suggested he may need to go higher and your first opinion in the thread sounded to me like going higher would be supraphysiological and dangerous.


I replied to you in my first post #31 in the thread:

You stated.....- Dont start lower than 120mg per week and dont start higher than 150mg per week. You may need to adjust later from there

You should not be dishing out advice when you should very well know that many men can easily achieve a high-end trough FT let alone absurdly high in some cases on 100 mg/week (split into more frequent injections).

Even then you have absolutely no idea where his SHBG sits as unfortunately, he did not have it tested.

Where the f**k do you get.....your first opinion in the thread sounded to me like going higher would be supraphysiological and dangerous.

Far fetched, to say the least!




Sorry but this is an argument against your pieces of advice. I gave my protocol more than enough time to work(yes 10 weeks is more than enough FOR ME) and it didnt work. I'm happy I didnt listen to you., discussed it with my doctor and changed back to sustanon. The improvement was massive and swift, in 3-4 weeks I felt way better and in 6 weeks as good as TRT can make me feel. I know my body and I know I didnt need to waste my time for waiting for a doomed protocol that would never work for me, it is a WASTE OF TIME. I dont tell other guys they shouldnt wait more. I know I dont have to wait more for my protocol changes. Enanthate and cypionate dont work for me, so no protocol with them stand a chance. I do good only on sustanon, why - nobody knows but Im happy with it and will keep pinning it EOD in the forseable future. The whole point for switiching to enanthate was to reduce injection frequency. It didnt work and I came back to what works for me, case closed. If you have noticed I dont run around telling guys stop using enanthate, sustanon is the REAL shit(I suggested that to only 2-3 people to try for whom the medium single esters also didnt seem to work well, or maybe the reason was different, just a suggestion something they can try).

I would say you got lucky!

Again judging from your previous threads/posts on the forum you have no clue how exogenous T works let alone are out to lunch on some of the advice you are dishing out.

I could see right through you from the get-go!

You just keep spouting the same shit.....BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!




As for the super accurate modern free t measurement, why you continue to mock me I havent checked my FT with that method, you expect me to catch a plane to USA to make that test or what? I've optimized my TRT well enough without this super accurate free test method, so I dont really care where it sits. For my needs total t, shbg and albumin are enough. If the OP has access to this test he can try it, I havent suggested against that, but Im not sure which doctor will be able to work with that numbers.

You have no clue where your FT level truly sits let alone have no clue how exogenous T works yet you keep dishing out advice on what the so-called fairytale OPTIMAL is!




Also most important regarding TRT is to be patient. You gotta keep in mind every protocol change takes 6-8 weeks to settle in your body, while in this period issues can be expected, so dont make any adjustments until this period is over and you can evaluate. I wish someone told me this stuff 2 years ago...

No one is getting dialed in 6-8 weeks.....LMFAO.

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance.....12 weeks!




I wish someone told me this stuff 2 years ago...

2 years ago WTF you are still out to lunch!

 

[Anonymon]

To help break up the roid rage argument this turned into, I’ll chime in on hCG:

Some guys, like me, actually feel better on hCG in a dose dependent manner. I originally came to this after getting messed up by finasteride, and hCG actually seems to help me more than test and helps me tolerate test. Other guys feel like crap on hCG. You never know which you’ll be and will have to experiment. I personally started with both and later tried dropping hCG and felt worse, so then I bolstered it and felt better, and am currently shooting even higher. If your symptoms more mirror PFS folks, you’re more likely to like hCG. I personally like the idea of keeping my testes working as well.

Good rule of thumb if you want the benefits of hCG is that you’ll need at least 250-350iu’s per shot 2-3x a week. It stays elevated in the blood for a couple days thereafter according to Dr. Saya’s research. I did 100-140iu’s daily and did feel better than not doing it, but higher amounts 3x a week were better even if the total amount was about the same. Currently experimenting with 600-750ius 3x a week.

Personally, my protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do everyone’s that I’ve personally known doing HRT. I think the 3 month thing is a well intentioned fib, and the kind of adjustments people make are usually in the 120-150mg range anyway, which really isn’t all that different for worrisome health markers based on my blood tests. My doc front loaded my dose and I started somewhere around 150mg a week on test and probably 250iu’s of hCG 3x a week. Then I did 160-180mg spread out daily with some more hCG.

I love hCG, but I’m a challenging case. My TT/FT readings going into HRT were similar to yours though a little higher on the TT and lower on the FT. You wouldn’t have known it to look at me though because I still had more muscle at that amount than most people on TRT or steroids. Just be sure to focus on how you feel and your quality of life while keeping your blood tests in check.

If you’re happier and perfectly healthy on a mild steroid cycle for life, it seems silly not to do it if your current health and quality of life is crap. Exogenous T isn’t the same as naturally produced T, either. Most guys need more exogenous T to feel the same as guys with the same natural levels because there’s a lot that happens alongside T being produced that you don’t quite get with injections. Most guys shooting for similar levels to someone within the normal range DO NOT feel as good or normal as those same guys, or even their own previously higher natural test levels.

 

[Cataceous]

... I think the 3 month thing is a well intentioned fib, ...

Or not, especially for those getting started.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

...
If you’re happier and perfectly healthy on a mild steroid cycle for life, it seems silly not to do it if your current health and quality of life is crap. Exogenous T isn’t the same as naturally produced T, either. Most guys need more exogenous T to feel the same as guys with the same natural levels because there’s a lot that happens alongside T being produced that you don’t quite get with injections. Most guys shooting for similar levels to someone within the normal range DO NOT feel as good or normal as those same guys, or even their own previously higher natural test levels.

Overall these anecdote-based opinions are a distraction and a disservice to beginners, who should instead be concentrating on attaining normal serum testosterone and then giving it time to work. There's no credible evidence that "most guys" on TRT need to have testosterone higher than their peak youthful levels in order to compensate for the hormonal shortcomings of TRT. The counter-anecdotes are abundant on the forums, where guys struggle with the side effects of taking too much testosterone. Shortcomings in TRT should be addressed head-on—as in using hCG to compensate for suppressed LH, adding back progesterone if it's low, and so on.

 

[ivkonst2017]

I would say you got lucky!

Again judging from your previous threads/posts on the forum you have no clue how exogenous T works let alone are out to lunch on some of the advice you are dishing out.

I could see right through you from the get-go!

You just keep spouting the same shit.....BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!

No luck at all, I just know my body. 6-8 weeks is more than enough time to asses a protocol for me, for sustanon 10 weeks maybe. More than that is a WASTE OF TIME. I guess for some peoole it takes longer, but for others Ive seen also similar period is needed for a protocol to work. Also all the experienced TRT doctors asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks after initiating it. I guess on certain circumstances they would ask a patient to wait more. In my case definetely that was not the circumstance.

Even then you have absolutely no idea where his SHBG sits as unfortunately, he did not have it tested.

I wonder how people have managed their TRT before the new super-duper accurate sky-rocket method for free t testing was discovered? This thing about the free t really starts to sound funny to me...

 

[ivkonst2017]

Exogenous T isn’t the same as naturally produced T, either. Most guys need more exogenous T to feel the same as guys with the same natural levels because there’s a lot that happens alongside T being produced that you don’t quite get with injections. Most guys shooting for similar levels to someone within the normal range DO NOT feel as good or normal as those same guys, or even their own previously higher natural test levels.

Bingo, exactly my point. So I dont see how a total t of 1300 with an SHBG of above 20 lets say can be considered a mild cycle if this is the level where the guys feels good.
Also I see the same mistake from certain users comparing how many mg average young healthy body produces per week to a TRT dosage, not to mention they totally skip the fact in the TRT dosage there is also an ester. But even without the ester such comparison is absurd.

TRT is a treatment, you start a dose and you raise up until the symptoms related to testosterone are resolved(of course when raising the dose all other possible reasons for the remaining issues should be carefully evaluated and addressed, if the thyroid is crap for exampld no amount of t will be enough). If this happens to be 250mg that is your dose. Yes, I know guys who need 250mg for TRT! When the diabetic is started on insulin his dose is not compared to the natural production, when the doctor starts a long term pharmaceutical treatment again he reaches a dose where the symptoms are resolved and there is no danger of health issues or side effects. I dont see a reason to put any additional limitation to TRT in comparison to any other pharmaceutical treatment, even more so that testosterone is safer than 90 of the drugs out there.

I for example if I drop my levels to 800-1000 many of my symptoms return.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Personally, my protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do everyone’s that I’ve personally known doing HRT.

You said it, not me...

 

[madman]

No luck at all, I just know my body. 6-8 weeks is more than enough time to asses a protocol for me, for sustanon 10 weeks maybe. More than that is a WASTE OF TIME. I guess for some peoole it takes longer, but for others Ive seen also similar period is needed for a protocol to work. Also all the experienced TRT doctors asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks after initiating it. I guess on certain circumstances they would ask a patient to wait more. In my case definetely that was not the circumstance.


I wonder how people have managed their TRT before the new super-duper accurate sky-rocket method for free t testing was discovered? This thing about the free t really starts to sound funny to me...

More than that is a WASTE OF TIME.

For you and the clueless ones.....sure!

Unfortunately, hormones are in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE), and as you should very well know longer when using Sustanon due to the decanoate ester.

The body is trying to ADJUST during this transition and it is common for many let alone someone just starting trt to experience ups/downs!

Even then after blood levels have stabilized it will take a few months for the body to ADAPT to the new T level.

This is the critical time period when one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.....plain and simple!

No one is getting dialed in let alone being able to gauge how effective a protocol is 6-8 weeks in as again hormones are in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) as the body has no idea whether it is coming or going during this transition.....T levels are rising week after week until the new setpoint is reached.

The only way the dose of T would need to be increased 6 weeks in once blood work has been done is if trough T levels were still too low (highly doubtful) in most cases.




Also all the experienced TRT doctors asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks after initiating it.

Of course, to not only get an idea of how you feel but also to see where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has your trough TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG let alone overall blood markers.

If everything is going well and you have achieved sufficient blood levels then the protocol still needs to be given time to truly gauge how you feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms let alone whether one can truly claim whether a protocol was a success or failure!

The only time a protocol (dose T) should be tweaked 6 weeks in is if there was minimal improvement in symptom relief due to trough levels still being low or in some cases if one was experiencing sides due to trough levels being too high!

Not everyone can tolerate running higher T levels.

No one can truly claim 6-8 weeks in whether said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) is a true success or failure.

I would say you are blowing smoke out your ass!

Just so you know many doctors in the know and yes those ones considered on the cutting edge will wait 12 weeks when starting a patient on trt before jumping all over blood work let alone giving the protocol enough time to truly claim whether such was a success or failure.

Top it all off that when one is starting trt some of the overall benefits of having healthy T levels take much longer than 3 months.




Also all the experienced TRT doctors asses a protocol on 6-8 weeks after initiating it.

Unfortunately, a fair number of men especially the ones that lurk on those forums (including you) continue to struggle due to using/relying upon inaccurate assays when testing FT let alone tweaking their protocol every 6 weeks because they do not feel well.....sounds like you.....no?

You already got picked apart numerous times on the forum.

 

[madman]

You said it, not me...

Personally, MY protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do everyone’s that I’ve PERSONALLY known doing HRT.

What the one poster's personal experience let alone the handful of F**King people he knows.....LMFAO!




You said it, not me.....

He must be right.....putting my money on it.....better yet I will put up my hot wife and life savings!

 

[madman]

Bingo, exactly my point. So I dont see how a total t of 1300 with an SHBG of above 20 lets say can be considered a mild cycle if this is the level where the guys feels good.
Also I see the same mistake from certain users comparing how many mg average young healthy body produces per week to a TRT dosage, not to mention they totally skip the fact in the TRT dosage there is also an ester. But even without the ester such comparison is absurd.

TRT is a treatment, you start a dose and you raise up until the symptoms related to testosterone are resolved(of course when raising the dose all other possible reasons for the remaining issues should be carefully evaluated and addressed, if the thyroid is crap for exampld no amount of t will be enough). If this happens to be 250mg that is your dose. Yes, I know guys who need 250mg for TRT! When the diabetic is started on insulin his dose is not compared to the natural production, when the doctor starts a long term pharmaceutical treatment again he reaches a dose where the symptoms are resolved and there is no danger of health issues or side effects. I dont see a reason to put any additional limitation to TRT in comparison to any other pharmaceutical treatment, even more so that testosterone is safer than 90 of the drugs out there.

I for example if I drop my levels to 800-1000 m

From one of your previous posts:

- Dont start lower than 120mg per week and dont start higher than 150mg per week. You may need to adjust later from there

My reply:

Again you left it wide open 120-150 mg/week!

When starting trt 100 mg/week split twice weekly (50 mg every 3.5 days) is a sensible starting dose.


- Start doing muscular injections, initially dont start sub q.

My reply:

Again for a majority of men, there should be no difference in the absorption/effectiveness of T when injecting strictly sub-q.


As for sub q like I stated many times we see enough men for which it doesnt work well enough and IM is the more reliable delivery method

My reply:

Again far from common and piss poor reason to try and prevent someone from starting trt strictly sub-q!




You have no clue where his SHBG sits let alone seem to be playing stupid or have no sense in your head as again he clearly stated in post #7

post #7

Yes I did 2-3 years ago for only a month, I had a change of heart at the time and wanted to give it my all with a natural approach. I also had some weird side effects 3 weeks in which also pushed me out of it as well. I felt really faint sweaty and had shallow breathing along with crazy amounts of anxiety, can't remember what else but that's the gist of it.

He tried trt once for 4 weeks and bailed out!

Yet you are telling this guy to start on 120--->150mg T/week....with absolutely no idea what his protocol (dose T/injection) frequency was.

Let alone avoid starting on sub-q.

Piss poor advice plain and simple!




From one of your previous posts:

If someone happens to get a bit higher levels for a few weeks there is nothing scary or dangerous in that, thats why we do blood work and he will just lower his dose IF the way he feels amd the side effects suggests so, not just a number above a compromised reference range. If a guy happens to get at even at 1500, feels perfect, has no side effects, lipids, blood counts, blood pressure and all other health markers are good why should he lower it? I definetelly wouldnt, my doctor as well. Nothing in the medical literature suggests these levels are harmful long term, and even if some problems start to occur due to some undiagnosed health problem like sleep apnea for example we do regular blood work, they will appear, the guy will lower his dose and fix the immediate problems while addressing the root cause

My reply:

Tell us something we already do not know!

Fuck the current reference range.....low end used to be 350 and high end 1200 ng/dL!

Never have I stated on here that one needs to stay within a reference range.

Comes down to the individual and where one feels best while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential sides and keeping blood markers healthy long-term!

Again most men would easily do well with a trough TT 1000-1200 ng/dL and trough FT in the 20-30ng/dL range.

Does that mean running higher T levels above the top-end TT 1200 ng/dL or FT 30 ng/dL is dangerous or scary because it would be considered supra-physiological.....who the f**k stated such.....NOT ME.

Let's be very clear here nowhere did I state that it is dangerous let alone scary if someone is running a TT 1000-2000 ng/dL or FT 30-80 ng/dL.




Bingo, exactly my point. So I dont see how a total t of 1300 with an SHBG of above 20 lets say can be considered a mild cycle if this is the level where the guys feels good.

No fear-mongering going on here let alone anyone talking about trt=mild cycle!

Nowhere did I ever state that running a TT 1500-2000ng/dL or FT 30-80 ng/dL is dangerous/harmful let alone would cause any long-term health issues.

Again where the f**k do you get.....your first opinion in the thread sounded to me like going higher would be supraphysiological and dangerous.

Far fetched, to say the least!

 

[ivkonst2017]

Personally, MY protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do everyone’s that I’ve PERSONALLY known doing HRT.

What the one poster's personal experience let alone the handful of F**King people he knows.....LMFAO!




You said it, not me.....

He must be right.....putting my money on it.....better yet I will put up my hot wife and life savings!

As you see Im not the only one who can evaluate a protocol after a few weeks on it. This guy is like that, Im like that, he knows other people like that, I know as well. What percentage is like that we dont know.

But your claim that everyone should wait more if he feels BAD on week 8 is WRONG. For me definetely it is, he says for him as well. For others your claim will be right, but NOT for everyone.

If I decide to try a new protocol and feel bad after 8 weeks I MUST make a change and Im 100 percent certain in that.

 

[ivkonst2017]

From one of your previous posts:

- Dont start lower than 120mg per week and dont start higher than 150mg per week. You may need to adjust later from there

My reply:

Again you left it wide open 120-150 mg/week!

When starting trt 100 mg/week split twice weekly (50 mg every 3.5 days) is a sensible starting dose.


- Start doing muscular injections, initially dont start sub q.

My reply:

Again for a majority of men, there should be no difference in the absorption/effectiveness of T when injecting strictly sub-q.


As for sub q like I stated many times we see enough men for which it doesnt work well enough and IM is the more reliable delivery method

My reply:

Again far from common and piss poor reason to try and prevent someone from starting trt strictly sub-q!




You have no clue where his SHBG sits let alone seem to be playing stupid or have no sense in your head as again he clearly stated in post #7

post #7

Yes I did 2-3 years ago for only a month, I had a change of heart at the time and wanted to give it my all with a natural approach. I also had some weird side effects 3 weeks in which also pushed me out of it as well. I felt really faint sweaty and had shallow breathing along with crazy amounts of anxiety, can't remember what else but that's the gist of it.

He tried trt once for 4 weeks and bailed out!

Yet you are telling this guy to start on 120--->150mg T/week....with absolutely no idea what his protocol (dose T/injection) frequency was.

Let alone avoid starting on sub-q.

Piss poor advice plain and simple!




From one of your previous posts:

If someone happens to get a bit higher levels for a few weeks there is nothing scary or dangerous in that, thats why we do blood work and he will just lower his dose IF the way he feels amd the side effects suggests so, not just a number above a compromised reference range. If a guy happens to get at even at 1500, feels perfect, has no side effects, lipids, blood counts, blood pressure and all other health markers are good why should he lower it? I definetelly wouldnt, my doctor as well. Nothing in the medical literature suggests these levels are harmful long term, and even if some problems start to occur due to some undiagnosed health problem like sleep apnea for example we do regular blood work, they will appear, the guy will lower his dose and fix the immediate problems while addressing the root cause

My reply:

Tell us something we already do not know!

Fuck the current reference range.....low end used to be 350 and high end 1200 ng/dL!

Never have I stated on here that one needs to stay within a reference range.

Comes down to the individual and where one feels best while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential sides and keeping blood markers healthy long-term!

Again most men would easily do well with a trough TT 1000-1200 ng/dL and trough FT in the 20-30ng/dL range.

Does that mean running higher T levels above the top-end TT 1200 ng/dL or FT 30 ng/dL is dangerous or scary because it would be considered supra-physiological.....who the f**k stated such.....NOT ME.

Let's be very clear here nowhere did I state that it is dangerous let alone scary if someone is running a TT 1000-2000 ng/dL or FT 30-80 ng/dL.




Bingo, exactly my point. So I dont see how a total t of 1300 with an SHBG of above 20 lets say can be considered a mild cycle if this is the level where the guys feels good.

No fear-mongering going on here let alone anyone talking about trt=mild cycle!

Nowhere did I ever state that running a TT 1500-2000ng/dL or FT 30-80 ng/dL is dangerous/harmful let alone would cause any long-term health issues.

Again where the f**k do you get.....your first opinion in the thread sounded to me like going higher would be supraphysiological and dangerous.

Far fetched, to say the least!

Maybe we have a communication problem and our opinions dont defer that much, I guess in 20min of live talk we would at least decide what we dont agree on...

 

[madman]

As you see Im not the only one who can evaluate a protocol after a few weeks on it. This guy is like that, Im like that, he knows other people like that, I know as well. What percentage is like that we dont know.

But your claim that everyone should wait more if he feels BAD on week 8 is WRONG. For me definetely it is, he says for him as well. For others your claim will be right, but NOT for everyone.

If I decide to try a new protocol and feel bad after 8 weeks I MUST make a change and Im 100 percent certain in that.

As you see Im not the only one who can evaluate a protocol after a few weeks on it. This guy is like that, Im like that, he knows other people like that, I know as well. What percentage is like that we dont know.

Minority!

No one can truly claim success or failure 6-8 weeks in!




But your claim that everyone should wait more if he feels BAD on week 8 is WRONG. For me definetely it is, he says for him as well. For others your claim will be right, but NOT for everyone.

Sure if your trough T levels are too low and you have not noticed any improvements in low-t symptoms let alone were struggling then the dose of T would need to be increased 6-8 weeks in.

If you have achieved a healthy trough FT level 6 weeks and still feel unwell then it could very well be other hormones at play adrenals, thyroid, estradiol!

Let alone your injection frequency (peak--->trough).

Many have no clue where their SHBG sits before jumping on trt.

If you have achieved a healthy trough FT 6 weeks in then increasing your T dose further off the hop is a piss poor move as again blood levels were in FLUX during the weeks (4-6) leading up until blood levels have stabilized and again it is common to experience ups/downs during this time.

Again once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to adapt.

 

[madman]

Nuff said!



6.What is a reasonable timeline to begin to observe improvements in the signs and symptoms of testosterone deficiency?

*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD.76,77 As such, patients should be counseled that symptom response will not be immediate. Expectations for treatment response should be established with each patient. Patients can anticipate improvements in many of the common symptoms of TD (libido, energy levels, sexual function) after 3 months of treatment or longer. Metabolic and structural (body composition, muscle mass, bone density) changes may take upwards of 6-months. 77 In addition, patients should be counseled that diet and exercise in combination with testosterone therapy are recommended for body composition changes.

*Appreciating this pattern of response to testosterone therapy is fundamental when determining the impact of treatment and the appropriate timing of follow-up evaluations while on therapy. For example, if patients undergo a symptom review and measurement of testosterone levels too early (< 3 months), it may lead both physicians and patients to conclude that the treatment has not been impactful (i.e. normal levels of testosterone without symptomatic/structural/metabolic benefit). However, if the same assessment was scheduled 3-6 months after the initiation of therapy, the clinical response tends to be more reflective of normalized levels of serum testosterone.



*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD


* As such, patients should be counseled that symptom response will not be immediate. Expectations for treatment response should be established with each patient. Patients can anticipate improvements in many of the common symptoms of TD (libido, energy levels, sexual function) after 3 months of treatment or longer. Metabolic and structural (body composition, muscle mass, bone density) changes may take upwards of 6-months.


*Appreciating this pattern of response to testosterone therapy is fundamental when determining the impact of treatment and the appropriate timing of follow-up evaluations while on therapy. For example, if patients undergo a symptom review and measurement of testosterone levels too early (< 3 months), it may lead both physicians and patients to conclude that the treatment has not been impactful (i.e. normal levels of testosterone without symptomatic/structural/metabolic benefit). However, if the same assessment was scheduled 3-6 months after the initiation of therapy, the clinical response tends to be more reflective of normalized levels of serum testosterone.

 

[Anonymon]

As you see Im not the only one who can evaluate a protocol after a few weeks on it. This guy is like that, Im like that, he knows other people like that, I know as well. What percentage is like that we dont know.

But your claim that everyone should wait more if he feels BAD on week 8 is WRONG. For me definetely it is, he says for him as well. For others your claim will be right, but NOT for everyone.

If I decide to try a new protocol and feel bad after 8 weeks I MUST make a change and Im 100 percent certain in that.

I’ve actually worked with hundreds of people over the years on HRT, though I never thought I’d need it because I looked and felt like someone on HRT anyway, most people assuming I was on it. At the end of the day we’re all figuring this out together and everybody’s different. It wasn’t that long ago that people only injected once a week or once every two weeks. You have to dial in your own protocol yourself and trust yourself, how you feel, and bloodwork above anyone on the internet. Although I would agree that if you’re just starting off things can be weird for people, it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

Your points on exogenous hormones for most other therapies not precisely corresponding to natural levels is also very true. Hell, even with how your average PCP type would handle TRT with giving you one shot every two weeks.

There’s also the matter of whether you want to consider this testosterone therapy or testosterone replacement therapy, the former being what most guys actually use and benefit from. Although you should do your best to get things in check naturally before doing anything like HRT, it probably is the case in many people that testosterone is being used as a therapy for something they may not be able to otherwise address naturally, or for simply having been dealt a bad genetic hand. I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly. This is an extreme example, but most professional athletes in sports with money on the line and actors known for their physiques are all on HRT. As are executives in Silicon Valley and otherwise. Go ahead and be satisfied with the hand you were dealt though, even if you don’t have so much as a pair of 2’s.

In all things, find a doctor you trust that has experience, do your research, ask everybody, and be the one in charge of your own health because no one knows what it’s like to be you but you. If you feel better and your blood work’s great at higher levels like 1300-1500 and you’re not having negative side effects, I can’t see a reason not to do that.

 

[ivkonst2017]

I’ve actually worked with hundreds of people over the years on HRT, though I never thought I’d need it because I looked and felt like someone on HRT anyway, most people assuming I was on it. At the end of the day we’re all figuring this out together and everybody’s different. It wasn’t that long ago that people only injected once a week or once every two weeks. You have to dial in your own protocol yourself and trust yourself, how you feel, and bloodwork above anyone on the internet. Although I would agree that if you’re just starting off things can be weird for people, it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

Your points on exogenous hormones for most other therapies not precisely corresponding to natural levels is also very true. Hell, even with how your average PCP type would handle TRT with giving you one shot every two weeks.

There’s also the matter of whether you want to consider this testosterone therapy or testosterone replacement therapy, the former being what most guys actually use and benefit from. Although you should do your best to get things in check naturally before doing anything like HRT, it probably is the case in many people that testosterone is being used as a therapy for something they may not be able to otherwise address naturally, or for simply having been dealt a bad genetic hand. I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly. This is an extreme example, but most professional athletes in sports with money on the line and actors known for their physiques are all on HRT. As are executives in Silicon Valley and otherwise. Go ahead and be satisfied with the hand you were dealt though, even if you don’t have so much as a pair of 2’s.

In all things, find a doctor you trust that has experience, do your research, ask everybody, and be the one in charge of your own health because no one knows what it’s like to be you but you. If you feel better and your blood work’s great at higher levels like 1300-1500 and you’re not having negative side effects, I can’t see a reason not to do that.

I can very much agree on all that and your way of thinking.

Next week I start thyroid, NDT. I've been considering since I started TRT, but I wanted to settle my TRT regimen and also hoped thyroid may optimize naturally, but it didnt. Thyroid is not terrible, FT3 is midrange, but me and my doctor think I may benefit from raising it, I have 2-3 remaining symptoms very likely related to thyroid. Its worth the shot.

Why should we settle in life for anything less than the best we can be? Since Im on TRT I try to apply that of thinking on everything - career, relationships, etc. Quality of life has definetely improved.