The T:E Ratio - Evaluating My Numbers

[madman]

Thanks for jumping in Nelson, was hoping you would.
So if you wouldn't do a thing with E, what do I look at next.

How do I feel?
See post # 5 and i'll add this:
Pre trt was horrible, was a 1 on a 10 scale.
On trt for a while and felt / feel better, maybe a 4-5. Then we added natural thyroid and that made me feel even better, energy wise. Not that im running a marathion but more like my day is extended. Instead of dragging my ass from 3pm on, and in bed at 7pm, im fine all day and up until 10pm without any real fatigue like I used to have.

There is definitely room for improvement though as im eating and gaining weight instead of losing weight and building muscle. That is more related to diet but I feel I should be better. Mood wise im better than I was but not where I should be.
Libido is ok, but could be better.
Spontaneous wood is non existent, and when it is there (with help) nowhere as hard as should be and was last august.

Hope you do understand that injecting exogenous t will never mimic ones natural circadian rhythm of a healthy young male as injections cause your testosterone levels to reach a steady state as oppose to the natural peak/valleys of producing t endogenously. The closest you will get regarding injectable is daily propionate otherwise transdermal is the other route. Trt can be a god send for many but regarding libido/erections healthy testosterone levels is only one of the contributing factors of a complex hormonal cascade..........adrenals/thyroid/insulin/neurotransmitters. Do not feel let down if you never achieve a 10 as there is so much more at play!

 

[rhino5169]

I had barely any T last august when I took the supplements and boosters, because I had such low T I dont think I really had any sort of circadium T rythm. I mean technically yes, but so low as not to have made a difference. I was like that a LONG time.
THEN, I somehow stumbled upon the right supplemts or the right dosage and I was superman. After the supplements ran out I declined back to a worm.

What does that tell you?
It means whatever it was worked, and worked great. So yes, I can achieve a 10, I just need to find out what the hell it was that did it.

BTW, I am taking test cyp m/w/f
hcg m/w/f
T cream 2 clicks daily
NP Thyroid 1 grain daily.

I was not on any of that last august.

Again, im sorry if im beating a dead horse, but I know I can get to where I want to be because i've been there. When I got there I was much worse off than I am now and I still got there, so it shouldnt be hard for me to get back there im just trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle together.

I think a big clue that may help is that 'smell'.
I had the musky odor of a sasquatch, lol.
Strength increased, I lost weight but gained muscle, mood was off the charts good, energy like I havent had in 30 years.
SOMETHING worked!

Thanks

 

[rhino5169]

So I've done some reading and see so many contradicting theories.

Nelson, you say my ratio is 22, and not to do anything.
I read the thread where you interviewed Dr. Ranjit Ramasamy and he preaches a ratio of 1:10, T should be 10 times higher than E
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...r-Ranjith-Ramasamy&highlight=Ranjith+Ramasamy

in that case my E should be 108, but he also says he prescribes AI for anyone over 60?

I've read on several other sites that optimal ratios of E are 30-50. Unless I'm wrong both of these examples would mean my E is low?

 

[Vince Carter]

So I've done some reading and see so many contradicting theories.

Nelson, you say my ratio is 22, and not to do anything.
I read the thread where you interviewed Dr. Ranjit Ramasamy and he preaches a ratio of 1:10, T should be 10 times higher than E
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...r-Ranjith-Ramasamy&highlight=Ranjith+Ramasamy

in that case my E should be 108, but he also says he prescribes AI for anyone over 60?

I've read on several other sites that optimal ratios of E are 30-50. Unless I'm wrong both of these examples would mean my E is low?

There's a lot of that out there, the point being is that there isn't a number and as long as you work towards a number or ratio, for yourself the individual, you're going to be frustrated. As shown.

 

[rhino5169]

There's a lot of that out there, the point being is that there isn't a number and as long as you work towards a number or ratio, for yourself the individual, you're going to be frustrated. As shown.

Thanks VC, but my problem is that with all this conflicting information I don't know if I should go up or down. I don't want to chase a number or ratio, everyone feels different at different levels, but which way do I go to try to get to MY optimum level?

Is it trial and error at this point?

 

[JPB]

As far as this supplement you used, what was it exactly? And why did you quit it? Some people here may have experience with it or know more about it.

As others have mentioned TRT is not always the answer. With LH shutdown, circadian patterns are still not proper, and this can affect propensity for morning wood. I have found melanotan or PT-141 at bedtime remarkably effective for morning wood, but I am not on TRT. Age 57.

 

[rhino5169]

Thanks for chiming in.
Here is what I was taking
https://www.amazon.com/Rhino-Jack-T...TF8&qid=1497914011&sr=8-1&keywords=rhino+jack

http://www.bulksupplements.com/longjack-extract-powder.html

Those 2 along with tribulis and some vitamin D, antioxidants, and at one point mixed in Fadogia but cant remember if that was during the prime time.

So Im not positive my point is getting across so here it is just so we're on the same page:
At that point I had not been taking anything yet as far as Testosterone, HCG, thyroid or anything else prescribed.
My numbers were off the charts low, though I didnt know that yet because I wasnt getting regular lab work, I wasnt keeping track and even if I was the right tests weren't ordered yet. I had been like this for years, maybe 12-15 since I got diabetes.
I lost a lot of weight on my own even with being hypothyroid, diabetes, sleep apnea and cardiovascular disease.
It was a battle, but that battle still isnt over even though Ive come a long way.
During that time I was taking supplements to help me out. I figured even if it helped 1% that's still 1% better and was taking things day by day.
At one point I felt that combination was working so I stuck with it and felt better and better until I had that magical sweet spot. It was awesome.
I ran out of the supplements and decided that if supplements helped to get me there I knew if was possible to feel great then I would try to find the root cause of everything and started my journey from a quack chiropractor 'doctor' to a local holistic and hormone doctor who may have helped somewhat but was limited which led me to this forum and eventually Defy.
I was generally feeling at the start like a steaming pile of dog crap but felt little better with diet and exercise and was feeling pretty good for someone with all my conditions, definitely better than I was the years prior but knew it should be better. Then those supplements and great few weeks then back to feeling meh.....

I am now on TRT with hcg, thyroid, lipo-c and vit B12, and feel a little more energy in that I can work longer days and go to bed later but no where near I should be, no where near I was for those 3 weeks last year when I wasn't even on any RX meds. So point is, I had a starting point last august of a lot lower than now and I got to a much higher level than I am now, and I wasn't on any meds. I am now on the meds and can't get near the same results.

 

[rhino5169]

Nelson - or anyone else help clarify this for me.

Nelson you say t to e ratio is total t divided by total e.
I read where people say that your formula is total total t divided by 14 and then total t divided by 20 and those numbers are the range you should be in.

So in the first formula 1089 ÷48 = 22.
I've read that we should be in the 30 - 50 range, so going by that formula would say I need to get my E lower to get my t to e into that range.

Using the second formula would be this
1089 ÷ 20 = 54
1089 ÷ 14 = 77
So 54 -77 should be my target E range and if that is the case then I need to somehow increase without increasing T.

So here I have 2 contridictory formulas telling me completely opposite paths, and I don't know which way to go.
I'm stuck in no man's land.
#NeedHelp.

By the way, my libido is decent, it's been better but it's ok right now, the issue is no response down south. The wood has disappeared.

 

[johndoesmith]

Nelson - or anyone else help clarify this for me.

Nelson you say t to e ratio is total t divided by total e.
I read where people say that your formula is total total t divided by 14 and then total t divided by 20 and those numbers are the range you should be in.

So in the first formula 1089 ÷48 = 22.
I've read that we should be in the 30 - 50 range, so going by that formula would say I need to get my E lower to get my t to e into that range.

Using the second formula would be this
1089 ÷ 20 = 54
1089 ÷ 14 = 77
So 54 -77 should be my target E range and if that is the case then I need to somehow increase without increasing T.

So here I have 2 contridictory formulas telling me completely opposite paths, and I don't know which way to go.
I'm stuck in no man's land.
#NeedHelp.

By the way, my libido is decent, it's been better but it's ok right now, the issue is no response down south. The wood has disappeared.

So you've started thyroid meds 5 weeks ago, right?

Did you have these same issues prior to the thyroid meds, or ONLY after starting the thyroid meds?

 

[rhino5169]

Started thyroid and dhea exactly 6 weeks ago today.
I've had the same issues off and on from way before starting thyroid.

The fact i've had the same issues is why I was leaning towards being too low in E, because thats how it has been for the last year or 2, always low, and symptoms havent improved even though my T is now 1089. E is at 48, but I detailed that in last post so I wont reiterate.
My approx numbers before TRT at 2 different times were:
T 200
E 8

T 290
E 12

Basically same issues I have now with:
T 1089
E 48

Im stumped. I need to go in one direction or the other because status quo is no good.

 

[johndoesmith]

Started thyroid and dhea exactly 6 weeks ago today.
I've had the same issues off and on from way before starting thyroid.

The fact i've had the same issues is why I was leaning towards being too low in E, because thats how it has been for the last year or 2, always low, and symptoms havent improved even though my T is now 1089. E is at 48, but I detailed that in last post so I wont reiterate.
My approx numbers before TRT at 2 different times were:
T 200
E 8

T 290
E 12

Basically same issues I have now with:
T 1089
E 48

Im stumped. I need to go in one direction or the other because status quo is no good.

Are these recent labs trough? Do you have any labs from when you felt great?

Erectile function often doesn't improve for many men from TRT alone and they often need a PDE-5 inhibitor to achieve proper functioning.

Are you on any other medications?

 

[Will Brink]

Anyway, I started trt and was hoping to get back to that level but I haven't, not even close.
Im currently on thyroid meds as of 5 weeks ago. The tyroid med plus trt has me feeling a lot better than I was with more energy or I should say not so much energy as it is im just able to sustain a longer workday without being overly energetic.

It's possible your thyroid status is not opitmized which will impact energy levels, mood etc. If diabetic, if it's not lack of interest, but lack of response, may be micro vascular issues. What is your BMI and BF%? Do you exercise regularly? Never underestimate depression also and or anxiety/performance anxiety.

 

[rhino5169]

Are these recent labs trough? Do you have any labs from when you felt great?

Erectile function often doesn't improve for many men from TRT alone and they often need a PDE-5 inhibitor to achieve proper functioning.

Are you on any other medications?

First, thanks for chiming in to help.
I realize in general this may be a needle in a haystack but I have to find that needle. I know it's possible. It wasn't that long ago everything was great and from that time to now my conditions have improved except in that area.

So yes the latest labs were trough.
I inject m/w/f and they were taken on monday before injection.

Other meds - all meds:
Test cyp
Test cream
DHEA
NP thyroid
Plavix

 

[rhino5169]

It's possible your thyroid status is not opitmized which will impact energy levels, mood etc. If diabetic, if it's not lack of interest, but lack of response, may be micro vascular issues. What is your BMI and BF%? Do you exercise regularly? Never underestimate depression also and or anxiety/performance anxiety.

Thank you too Will.

My thyroid status whether optimized yet or not is much, much better than it was when things were 'working right'. That's part of this puzzle. I was pretty much rock bottom when things fell in place for 3 weeks and everything was perfect for a few weeks, then declined and have been there since, even though I am doing much better now than then.

Yes I am diabetic, but my a1c now is 6.6. My a1c then was a 13.
BF is ~ 20 - 25%, slowly getting better. Back then was ~ 30%
BMI went from 44 to 38 now a 33.
Im a large guy and can carry extra weight. Most people think im 10-20 pounds overweight though I think it's more like 45. Im currently ~260.
So things in most areas have improved.

 

[johndoesmith]

First, thanks for chiming in to help.
I realize in general this may be a needle in a haystack but I have to find that needle. I know it's possible. It wasn't that long ago everything was great and from that time to now my conditions have improved except in that area.

So yes the latest labs were trough.
I inject m/w/f and they were taken on monday before injection.

Other meds - all meds:
Test cyp
Test cream
DHEA
NP thyroid
Plavix

What are you taking to treat your diabetes?

Something changed, whether it's big or small, you need to figure out exactly what that was. It could be something small, like riding a bicycle for exercise.

Essentially try to remember the last time things worked the way you wanted them to and try to make a list of ALL the changes since then.

It's possible you just need your dose reduced, more is not always better, and you're at pretty high levels. Some may just do better at 800 for a trough or even 650.

When things were great, were you just starting a new protocol?

 

[Will Brink]

Thank you too Will.

My thyroid status whether optimized yet or not is much, much better than it was when things were 'working right'. That's part of this puzzle. I was pretty much rock bottom when things fell in place for 3 weeks and everything was perfect for a few weeks, then declined and have been there since, even though I am doing much better now than then.

Yes I am diabetic, but my a1c now is 6.6. My a1c then was a 13.
BF is ~ 20 - 25%, slowly getting better. Back then was ~ 30%
BMI went from 44 to 38 now a 33.
Im a large guy and can carry extra weight. Most people think im 10-20 pounds overweight though I think it's more like 45. Im currently ~260.
So things in most areas have improved.

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction for sure.

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

 

[rhino5169]

2 other things:

1. I still haven't seen anyone clarify the 2 opposing E to T ratios I posted.
According to the one range I should be 54 to 77. This would mean increasing E without increasing T.

According to the other ratio and what i've read about youthful numbers they are between 30 and 50 T to E and im at a 22, so to get to the 30 - 50 range I would need to lower my E.

Any thoughts on which formula is the correct one or any thoughts whatsoever, lol.

2. Yes my libido is pretty decent. Not an all time high but still a 7. Thinking ( or actually already did) cut back on the occasional porn to see if this may be related to PIED.

Anyway, thanks.

 

[rhino5169]

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction for sure.

Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

Thanks.
All of that, including significant weight loss was before starting thyroid med.
Was pretty difficult and took a long time but moving in the right direction.
Still a lot of work to do.

 

[johndoesmith]

2 other things:

1. I still haven't seen anyone clarify the 2 opposing E to T ratios I posted.
According to the one range I should be 54 to 77. This would mean increasing E without increasing T.

According to the other ratio and what i've read about youthful numbers they are between 30 and 50 T to E and im at a 22, so to get to the 30 - 50 range I would need to lower my E.

Any thoughts on which formula is the correct one or any thoughts whatsoever, lol.

2. Yes my libido is pretty decent. Not an all time high but still a 7. Thinking ( or actually already did) cut back on the occasional porn to see if this may be related to PIED.

Anyway, thanks.

You're worrying too much about T/E2 ratio. It is a simple suggestion, not a requirement. 22 is great.

There isn't too much you can do to change this, really, other than a protocol change, but you're on 3 times a week. Unless you want to do EOD or daily then you're pretty much at an optimal protocol.

 

[rhino5169]

Sigh.
Thanks though