The Case Against Antidepressants

[Pnw0031]

Elliot Overton's videos about thiamine are based on a book co-authored by Dr Derrick Lonsdale (Cleveland Clinic) and Chandra Mars, entitled Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition.

The book is expensive at $99, which is why I recommended Elliot's YouTube channel, where he breaks down the book over many videos, and explains the best way to go about treating it.

After starting on thiamine myself (TTFD form), I experienced the paradoxical reactions they talk about such as severe fatigue. The reactions come back every time I increase the dose. Taking a vitamin B complex, along with a small amount of potassium and magnesium helps. But mostly you just have to rest and suffer through the PRs, which usually last a week after each TTFD thiamine increase.

My pulse rate is down; I'm more calm and relaxed so it definitely is working for me in restoring balance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. Thiamine is also supposed to improve gut motility through stimulating the enteric nervous system through the vagus nerve. It didn't help me in that area yet as I still have constipation.

I've only been taking it for just over a month. My understanding is it just takes time. Be patient.

https://www.youtube.com/@EONutrition

Amazon.com

Hiding in Plain Sight: Modern Thiamine Deficiency - PubMed

Thiamine or vitamin B1 is an essential, water-soluble vitamin required for mitochondrial energetics-the production of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). It is a critical and rate-limiting cofactor to multiple enzymes involved in this process, including those at the entry points and at critical...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is Chandra Mars' site:

Chandler Marrs, PhD

Writer, researcher, women's health advocate.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Thank you for the help, I’ve ordered both the fat soluble and ttfd versions of b1. What dose are you taking of TTFD?

I watched through some of the Elliot Overton videos, so I know to expect the paradoxical reaction for a week. I’m still not excited to experience it! Better to have a week long of suffering versus the years long sympathetic dominance I’ve been dealing with however.

I’ve also decided to try an elimination diet which was recommended by a friend who struggled with sympathetic dominance as well. Not sure if anyone here has had any luck with this fixing their parasympathetic function. The theory is that food insensitivities cause the sympathetic nervous system to spike.

Hopefully the combination of those two diet changes along with more meditation, deep breathing etc will fix this because the other option is beta blockers and I’d rather try to fix this naturally first.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Other than thiamine, which I started today, what are ways to fix sympathetic dominance?

Progesterone apparently counters adrenalin. Check out the podcasts and book (Adrenal dominance) by Dr. Michael Platt.

 

[ajax31]

I slowly worked my way up to 500 mg of TTFD (50 mg caps x 10). I've been on this dose for about a month. Each time I increased the dosage, I got a paradoxical reaction and felt worse for 5 - 7 days.

 

[Pnw0031]

I slowly worked my way up to 500 mg of TTFD (50 mg caps x 10). I've been on this dose for about a month. Each time I increased the dosage, I got a paradoxical reaction and felt worse for a 5 - 7 days.

Gotcha, going to start at 50mg

 

[electrify]

I'm not for SSRI ADs, but in general, lets say you feel depression symptoms out of nowhere. Even things like Long COVID have caused people to get anhedonia. What are you even supposed to do to solve it? Its really hard for psychological interventions to solve a biological dysfunction so one has to resort to psychiatric intervention, supps/nootropics, hormones, etc.

MAOIs seem to be better than SSRIs ironically. Tons of physical side effects but the food interactions are overblown: “Much ado about nothing”: monoamine oxidase inhibitors, drug interactions, and dietary tyramine | CNS Spectrums | Cambridge Core

They also don't have the PSSD risks SSRIs do.

Zuranolone the allopregnanolone based AD that hopefully gets approved next month looks promising as well.

 

[Pnw0031]

After trying straight Allopregnanolone I know I can NEVER take SSRIs. I had a HUGE inverse effect where I was ridiculously angry at nonissues and overreacted to pretty much everything. I had a very minor argument the morning before I received my Allo preg that essentially revolved around someone in my group going too far ahead on a hike while others were struggling behind and they took too long to stop. Fairly minor issue mainly exacerbated by the heat; before taking 5mg allopregnanolone it didn’t really affect me. After taking the allop I started hardcore ruminating and almost called the person in a fit of rage. I felt an unreasonable compulsion to do so. Never have felt anything quite out of control like that. Especially over such a tiny thing. The rest of the day and then night was just me not being able to sleep and wanting to break shit around me. Next day I was late for work because of uncontrollable traffic and I wanted to beat the shit out of my coworkers. Just totally irrational feelings, never have felt this way before. If anything, taking hormones (testosterone cyp) tends to make me feel more mentally stable despite side effects such as insomnia which are slowly being fixed. Not sure what the half life of this stuff is but I want it out of my system ASAP! I mention this on a thread about SSRIs because some ssris (especially lexapro and prozac) increase allopregnanolone which for some may be their saving grace. For me it was absolute hell in one night.

Here is the Wikipedia on the inverse reaction from allopregnanolone:

Allopregnanolone - Wikipedia
"...Increased levels of allopregnanolone can produce paradoxical effects, including negative mood, anxiety, irritability, and aggression.[24][25][26] This appears to be because allopregnanolone possesses biphasic, U-shaped actions at the GABAA receptor – moderate level increases (in the range of 1.5–2 nM/L total allopregnanolone, which are approximately equivalent to luteal phase levels) inhibit the activity of the receptor, while lower and higher concentration increases stimulate it.[24][25] This seems to be a common effect of many GABAA receptor positive allosteric modulators.[26][21] In accordance, acute administration of low doses of micronized progesterone (which reliably elevates allopregnanolone levels), have been found to have negative effects on mood, while higher doses have a neutral effect.[27]"

Here is an article on SSRIs and allopregnanolone:

The role of allopregnanolone in depressive-like behaviors: Focus on neurotrophic proteins - PubMed

Allopregnanolone (3α,5α-tetrahydroprogesterone; pharmaceutical formulation: brexanolone) is a neurosteroid that has recently been approved for the treatment of postpartum depression, promising to fill part of a long-lasting gap in the effectiveness of pharmacotherapies for depressive disorders...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I don’t mean to doom-post or whatever on SSRIs and allopregnanolone, but I do want to post this as a warning for the absolute mental hell I went through (and still somewhat dealing with about a day later). Taking any kind of hormone is a gamble in itself and allopregnanolone just wasn’t for me.

 

[electrify]

Direct Allopreg 3 mg was one of the few things that was massively helpful for my anhedonia problems I am going through, but only the very first time. Since then it doesn't really work or only mildly helps. However its one of the things I've taken with basically 0 side effects.

SSRIs are bad for other reasons than allopreg like serotonin. I will never touch that stuff as they can cause and worsen anhedonia.

I think if you weren't really having issues, alloP does have a U shape curve and probably just didn't need it.

Theres the novel antidepressant Zuranolone coming soon which im looking forward to

 

[tareload]

Update of sorts.

Just upped to 180 mg/week TC.

Was going at 160 mg/week of TC or TC/TP (4/1) blend for a couple of months. This continues the strategy since summer 2022 increasing at 20 mg/week intervals eom or so (Started back at 60 mg/week IIRC). It is up earlier in this thread.

Any Humanofort users alongside their daily, micro Testosterone injections?

I’ve been a big believer of the 10-15mg/day of Testosterone cypionate injections for many years now. Just added 2 daily capsules of Humanofort. Anyone notice a significant difference once adding the Humanofort?

www.excelmale.com

Escitalopram really quiets the anxiety. i seem to have made a decent bargain in my own particular case. Still have some arrythmia but dont care anymore. Cruise in peace (i hope).

 

[tareload]

Over a similar twenty year period, I've taken fluoxetine, sertraline, escitalopram, bupropion, mirtazapine, selegiline, moclobemide, alprazolam, lorazepam, buspirone, methylphenidate, amphetamine, modafinil, agomelatine, and many more drugs that I'm forgetting. I never found any lasting benefit from any psychiatric drug that outweighed the harms caused by that drug. In other words, I don't think you missed much by staying on the sidelines.

There are so many different angles that you can attack these disorders from and I guarantee there are several you haven't considered or tried yet. I firmly believe non-drug approaches to be most fruitful at this point.

Still amazes me with the sheer prolific-ness.

I'd have to say I am satisfied with the escitalopram at this point. Will now decide how to address the depression / apathy / anhedonia.

Thanks again for this thread!

 

[tareload]

Man this @FunkOdyssey is a treasure to the forum.

Update...

In the search for libido. Started Wellbutrin XL

Mucuna pruriens boosts libido a bit by; increasing dopamine in the brain. It actually seems to have a calming effect vs the increased everything that Wellbutrin gives. (Do not take mucuna if you're on Wellbutrin.) I've used Wellbutrin to quit nicotine and it greatly helped my mood as well, but...

www.excelmale.com

 

[electrify]

I found the peptide MIF-1 really helpful for anhedonia. The effects don’t fully last but it does raise my baseline when cycled (5 days at a time) every few weeks.

I remember the first day I took it the entire world was super bright. Felt almost like MDMA-lite.

Its too bad many peptide places don’t offer this one. It truly is an amazing lesser known one

There are a bunch of studies on it from the 80s-00s but it cannot be patented. Its dopaminergic and also does something to opiod system I don’t really understand.

Improvement in major depression after low subcutaneous doses of MIF-1 - PubMed

In this double-blind pilot study, 20 significantly depressed patients who all met the DSM-III R criteria for major depression were given a single subcutaneous injection of either 10 mg MIF-1 (Pro-Leu-Gly-NH2) or placebo on each of 5 consecutive days. Treatments were reversed for a second week of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Brain Activation by Peptide Pro-Leu-Gly-NH2 (MIF-1) - PMC

MIF-1 (Pro-Leu-Gly-NH2) is a tripeptide for which the therapeutic potential in Parkinson's disease and depression has been indicated by many studies. However, the cellular mechanisms of action of MIF-1 are not yet clear. Here, we show the specific ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Charliebizz]

I found the peptide MIF-1 really helpful for anhedonia. The effects don’t fully last but it does raise my baseline when cycled (5 days at a time) every few weeks.

I remember the first day I took it the entire world was super bright. Felt almost like MDMA-lite.

Its too bad many peptide places don’t offer this one. It truly is an amazing lesser known one

There are a bunch of studies on it from the 80s-00s but it cannot be patented. Its dopaminergic and also does something to opiod system I don’t really understand.

Improvement in major depression after low subcutaneous doses of MIF-1 - PubMed

In this double-blind pilot study, 20 significantly depressed patients who all met the DSM-III R criteria for major depression were given a single subcutaneous injection of either 10 mg MIF-1 (Pro-Leu-Gly-NH2) or placebo on each of 5 consecutive days. Treatments were reversed for a second week of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Brain Activation by Peptide Pro-Leu-Gly-NH2 (MIF-1) - PMC

MIF-1 (Pro-Leu-Gly-NH2) is a tripeptide for which the therapeutic potential in Parkinson's disease and depression has been indicated by many studies. However, the cellular mechanisms of action of MIF-1 are not yet clear. Here, we show the specific ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@electrify glad to see your doing well brother. I remember the rough ride you had!!!

 

[electrify]

@electrify glad to see your doing well brother. I remember the rough ride you had!!!

Thanks, its still been a rough ride but I am closer and MIF-1 kinda gave me some hope. Its a gem. I hope one day HRT/peptide clinics look into this.

Gut health also seems to be important, on a Rifaximin cycle right now.

I feel like ive learned a lot about biohacking and the body in this tho and what I seem to react well to and what is horrible. Im finding that for myself when there is high inflammation, stims even caffeine worsens anhedonia/blunting. But mysteriously while on Rifaximin (which is an antibiotic staying in the small intestine for sibo, but also antiinflammatory in thr gut) caffeine actually mysteriously has the opposite effect of improving things.

Also another thing is “low cortisol issues” I think may not be directly from cortisol in many cases but a lack of cortisol response to the underlying inflammation going on

Another thing is, oversimplified but it seems the true happy chemicals are Dopamine, GABA, and opiods. I seem to respond to stuff that is dopaminergic without being noradrenergic such as Bromantane.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Thanks, its still been a rough ride but I am closer and MIF-1 kinda gave me some hope. Its a gem. I hope one day HRT/peptide clinics look into this.

Is there anyone selling this besides Crazy Jay's limitless nootropic store? I'd like to try it without supporting him.

 

[electrify]

Is there anyone selling this besides Crazy Jay's limitless nootropic store? I'd like to try it without supporting him.

I haven’t found anywhere else myself, its like the only place I know of.

Ive been looking for a legit clinic that has it and you see tons with all kinds of other peptides but somehow they don’t have the one peptide with so much actual human studies behind it.

I was in a pretty bad place a couple weeks ago, did a round of this and even if the peak MDMA-ish effects didn’t last I got out of that place to a copable point again.

Never seen it discussed on HRT/steroid/etc boards until now either lol.