The Case Against Antidepressants

[tareload]

Chronic escitalopram in healthy volunteers has specific effects on reinforcement sensitivity: a double-blind, placebo-controlled semi-randomised study - Neuropsychopharmacology

Several studies of the effects on cognition of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI), administered either acutely or sub-chronically in healthy volunteers, have found changes in learning and reinforcement outcomes. In contrast, to our knowledge, there have been no studies of chronic...

www.nature.com

Overall I am still net positive but make sure you understand going in the risk vs reward. For someone with many years of experience with emotional blunting it is a tradeoff I am making.

 

[tareload]

Dropped this week to 2.5 mg/day escitalopram. 10 mg/day seemed to make depression worse. Will try to titrate down to lowest dose and hold on to whatever panic/anxiety improvement I can.

Recent article:

The Cause of Depression Is Probably Not What You Think | Quanta Magazine

Depression has often been blamed on low levels of serotonin in the brain. That answer is insufficient, but alternatives are coming into view and changing our understanding of the disease.

www.quantamagazine.org

Very nice MM Kinetic workup for a number of ADs:

The relationship between dose and serotonin transporter occupancy of antidepressants—a systematic review - Molecular Psychiatry

Brain imaging techniques enable the visualization of serotonin transporter (SERT) occupancy as a measure of the proportion of SERT blocked by an antidepressant at a given dose. We aimed to systematically review the evidence on the relationship between antidepressant dose and SERT occupancy. We...

www.nature.com

Fig. 1: Occupancy and dose relationship for antidepressants administered at four or more doses. | Molecular Psychiatry

www.nature.com

Example:

Lots of room to titrate down from typical 10 mg/day. Dial in your brain alteration as you like.

Very nice discussion. You should read it. You may learn alot.

 

[tareload]

Nice cheat sheet:

TRT + Low Dose SSRI ...anyone doing this protocol?

Most of us have probably seen one of the many threads by @madman which are great for explaining PSSD (Post-SSRI sexual dysfunction). However, this post targeted towards using a VERY low dose ssri for helping with allopregnenolone issues. There is an existing thread on this topic but I just...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

Update after 8 months on escitalopram:

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Since it is Christmas time and there is no better time to ridicule "experts" who don't understand what the heck they are talking about... https://www.center4menshealth.com/PDFs/Myth_2.pdf So if you get bored this Holiday season take a look at above and marvel at what's wrong with this picture...

www.excelmale.com

Emotional numbing/pro-depression effect definitely there but the anti-anxiety/panic effect has been tremendous.

 

[Fortunate]

@readalot and I have been discussing SSRI's in another thread, so I thought I'd move it over here.

I started sertraline 50mg for four days followed by 100mg for the last few weeks. So far, the biggest challenge has been crushing fatigue in the middle of the day. It starts around 11 AM and persists for a few hours. Dissipates in the afternoon. I am pretty sure it's the SSRI, as I have never had this before.

I do think it has dropped my libido and sensitivity. The upside is that I am able to last more than two seconds, which my wife appreciates!

 

[Charliebizz]

Update after 8 months on escitalopram:

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Since it is Christmas time and there is no better time to ridicule "experts" who don't understand what the heck they are talking about... https://www.center4menshealth.com/PDFs/Myth_2.pdf So if you get bored this Holiday season take a look at above and marvel at what's wrong with this picture...

www.excelmale.com

Emotional numbing/pro-depression effect definitely there but the anti-anxiety/panic effect has been tremendous.

Did you have depression before ssri ? I’ve actually had more depression since coming off low dose lexapro 3 years ago.

 

[tareload]

Did you have depression before ssri ? I’ve actually had more depression since coming off low dose lexapro 3 years ago.

Oh yeah, last 25 years at least. Good thing I never tried lexapro to treat it. Now I can use the lexapro to run more Test and cover anxiety while trying to look bigger than a swimmer.

SSRI is big time pro depressant for me. But used to dealing with depression. Anxiety and panic a whole different ballgame for me.

 

[Charliebizz]

Oh yeah, last 25 years at least. Good thing I never tried lexapro to treat it. Now I can use the lexapro to run more Test and cover anxiety while trying to look bigger than a swimmer.

SSRI is big time pro depressant for me. But used to dealing with depression. Anxiety and panic a while different ballgame for me.

I’m the opposite. I can deal with the anxiety better than the depression.

before ssri when your trt dose was too high. Did you also get fatigue. That’s my only real issue now if I crank my t up. I get more depression and more fatigue. But I get awesome libido and erections. So weird. I was thinking about going back on ssri. But was also dabbling in pregnenolone since mine is rock bottom.

 

[tareload]

I’m the opposite. I can deal with the anxiety better than the depression.

before ssri when your trt dose was too high. Did you also get fatigue. That’s my only real issue now if I crank my t up. I get more depression and more fatigue. But I get awesome libido and erections. So weird. I was thinking about going back on ssri. But was also dabbling in pregnenolone since mine is rock bottom.

Yeah I got the fatigue before the SSRI as well. I am just having to slowly come to grips with my poor anabolic drug tolerance.

I wish you the best finding what works for you. It surely is not a linear process for some of us

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Oh yeah, last 25 years at least. Good thing I never tried lexapro to treat it. Now I can use the lexapro to run more Test and cover anxiety while trying to look bigger than a swimmer.

LOL. I think your honesty is refreshing and I enjoy the self-effacing humor.

 

[tareload]

LOL. I think your honesty is refreshing and I enjoy the self-effacing humor.

That is all I have. Might as well try to leverage it. Thanks Pal!

 

[Fortunate]

Yeah I got the fatigue before the SSRI as well. I am just having to slowly come to grips with my poor anabolic drug tolerance.

I wish you the best finding what works for you. It surely is not a linear process for some of us

I'm with you, brother. For reference, see my last 1000 posts!

 

[ajax31]

For anxiety symptoms, you guys may want to look into Elliot Overton’s many YouTube videos on dysautonomia, or an imbalance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, and the role thiamine plays.

Such an imbalance is probably aggravated by TRT’s stimulating effect on the sympathetic nervous system.

A particular form of thiamine called TTFD works best for this.

 

[tareload]

For anxiety symptoms, you guys may want to look into Elliot Overton’s many YouTube videos on dysautonomia, or an imbalance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, and the role thiamine plays.

Such an imbalance is probably aggravated by TRT’s stimulating effect on the sympathetic nervous system.

A particular form of thiamine called TTFD works best for this.

Thanks. Mine came from acute AFIB episode which slowly messed me up like PTSD. Yes we have talked about underappreciated sympathetic modulation on here quite a bit. Good stuff.

 

[Charliebizz]

For anxiety symptoms, you guys may want to look into Elliot Overton’s many YouTube videos on dysautonomia, or an imbalance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, and the role thiamine plays.

Such an imbalance is probably aggravated by TRT’s stimulating effect on the sympathetic nervous system.

A particular form of thiamine called TTFD works best for this.

also read that pregnenolone deficiency can be a reason why people get worsen anxiety on trt. I remember when preg was all the rage on forums. Seems like on paper it sounded great in practice not so much for many.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Adrenal Dominance could also be a factor in anxiety. Progesterone can counter adrenalin. See the the book by Dr. Michael Platt.

 

[ajax31]

Or just watch the Soft White Underbelly YouTube channel, and your depression and anxiety will disappear when you realize how much better your life is compared to the interviewees.

 

[Charliebizz]

Yeah I got the fatigue before the SSRI as well. I am just having to slowly come to grips with my poor anabolic drug tolerance.

I wish you the best finding what works for you. It surely is not a linear process for some of us

Has the ssri and trt helped with fatigue at all ?

 

[Pnw0031]

For anxiety symptoms, you guys may want to look into Elliot Overton’s many YouTube videos on dysautonomia, or an imbalance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, and the role thiamine plays.

Such an imbalance is probably aggravated by TRT’s stimulating effect on the sympathetic nervous system.

A particular form of thiamine called TTFD works best for this.

Other than thiamine, which I started today, what are ways to fix sympathetic dominance?

 

[ajax31]

Elliot Overton's videos about thiamine are based on a book co-authored by Dr Derrick Lonsdale (Cleveland Clinic) and Chandra Mars, entitled Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition.

The book is expensive at $99, which is why I recommended Elliot's YouTube channel, where he breaks down the book over many videos, and explains the best way to go about treating it.

After starting on thiamine myself (TTFD form), I experienced the paradoxical reactions they talk about such as severe fatigue. The reactions come back every time I increase the dose. Taking a vitamin B complex, along with a small amount of potassium and magnesium helps. But mostly you just have to rest and suffer through the PRs, which usually last a week after each TTFD thiamine increase.

My pulse rate is down; I'm more calm and relaxed so it definitely is working for me in restoring balance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. Thiamine is also supposed to improve gut motility through stimulating the enteric nervous system through the vagus nerve. It didn't help me in that area yet as I still have constipation.

I've only been taking it for just over a month. My understanding is it just takes time. Be patient.

https://www.youtube.com/@EONutrition

Amazon.com

Hiding in Plain Sight: Modern Thiamine Deficiency - PubMed

Thiamine or vitamin B1 is an essential, water-soluble vitamin required for mitochondrial energetics-the production of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). It is a critical and rate-limiting cofactor to multiple enzymes involved in this process, including those at the entry points and at critical...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is Chandra Mars' site:

Chandler Marrs, PhD

Writer, researcher, women's health advocate.

www.hormonesmatter.com