Yes, it's very interesting, I feel like crap with levels higher than 1200 TT ... but around 600 I jump of joy, I also rise a lot TT with relatively small doses.
Testosterone propionate for TRT
- Thread starter madhacker
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Yes, it's very interesting, I feel like crap with levels higher than 1200 TT ... but around 600 I jump of joy, I also rise a lot TT with relatively small doses.
What is your SHBG, and where was your free T while at 1200, compared to 600?
Tommy Wall
Member
Why not try Sustenon which is both short and long acting. For me it’s my first choice.
Can’t wait to hear how you’ve been doing. I just had my appointment with Defy today, and will be starting propionate very shortly.
Do you mind if I ask what your test propionate protocol looks like?
Actually just found that you are doing 20mg/ day. Are you using HCG or an ai? And are you still doing well on your protocol?
sebastian_r
Member
I don't use neither AI nor HCG.
Plain test prop without additional supplements.
Currently running 20mg/day test prop intramuscular.
With 10mg/day I get hardly any E2 conversion, I'm six pack lean.
If I had problems with high E2 I would look into Pregnenolone / Progesterone or use vitamin E.
Protocol is not perfect, but by far the best I have found.
Would like to inject less frequent, but I cannot make longer ester work.
For anybody starting out with Prop, I would recommend starting with 10mg/day and see how it goes.
You will actually know within 2-3 days if it works for you. That's how fast you achieve "stable" levels with prop (0.8 days half life).
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What’s your SHBG at? You said you’d like to inject less frequently. Have you tried EOD injections on prop? It seems like high SHBG guys can get away with EOD injections on prop, but I doubt lower SHBG guys can, due to them excreting the testosterone faster.
And what’s your plan, just stay on the dose you’re at, or do you plan on trying to dial in more?
sebastian_r
Member
EOD doesn't work for me, test levels plummet mid second day.
Will keep running prop on 20mg/day.
Tried 25mg-30mg/day but it does not make a difference, so I just take the least amount that makes me feel good.
I don't get any sides, only the frequent injections are bit bothering.
Tried other protocols countless times, but as soon as I start injecting anything else but prop all hell breaks lose in terms of side effects.
sebastian_r
Member
Found vitamin E to be a strong "aromatase inhibitor".
I like it especially since it doesn't seem to reduce DHT. Many of the "natural" AI's seem to mess with DHT (DIM, Zinc.....)
200-400IE are a good starting point.
What’s your SHBG?
Vince Carter
Banned
Is that a subjective feeling that you have or have tested it with/without the Vit E?
sebastian_r
Member
Read about vitamin E at raypeatforum.com, they linked some studies (guys are pretty anti E & pro DHT over there). Vitamin E (tocopherol) Is A Potent Aromatase Inhibitor
Would confirm from feeling, but don't have lab values that are isolating before and after vitamin E, just subjective feeling n=1.
Would confirm from feeling, but don't have lab values that are isolating before and after vitamin E, just subjective feeling n=1.
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Jason Sypolt
Administrator
Words of warning: If you have low SHBG and are thinking of trying Propionate, don't. It's great at first - the high peak feeling. Then after some time the Cypionate that you were taking entirely leaves your body and you find the Prop gone in just a matter of a few hours. Sky high in the AM and hypogonadal in the afternoon. Just don't.
Jason, do you have some lab values showing this? So far I haven't found a reason for different SHBG levels to have much effect on the apparent ester half life. Instead it looks to me as though low SHBG increases the metabolic clearance rate of testosterone, which scales down serum levels relative to high SHBG, all else being equal.
Jason Sypolt
Administrator
You are correct. SHBG most certainly does affect the rate at which testosterone metsbolizes and leaves the body. I can’t even recall the rationale for trying Propionate / it was such a bad idea.
We have to inject daily with Cypionate or Enanthate because it metabolizes faster than the 3/4 day half life, so apply that same logic to Propionate which has a half life of 24 hours. I would inject at 8am and by 2pm be hypogonadal. Like I said, it was great at first. It took a while (maybe 6-8 weeks to notice this) but even my wife got scared from seeing the changes in me and wanted to know what was wrong.
I don’t have the exact lab results at hand right now but >1500 TT in the am, 600-650ish in the pm.
40ish FT in the am and dropping to mid teens in the pm. Very large rollercoaster / repeat that daily.
Just stick with the longer esters. If Cypionate/Enanthate aren’t working then try supplementing with a scrotal cream.
Are you suggesting that if you could raise your SHBG without affecting anything else that the apparent half life would be longer? I don't see a mechanism for this—how would SHBG affect the absorption of the depot of the testosterone ester?
Jason Sypolt
Administrator
SHBG won’t modify the half life of the ester itself, but it does have a mechanism to control uptake of testosterone in the body which is not fully understood. Much about SHBG remains unknown and many people really don’t give SHBG the credit and respect that it deserves. It does so much more than bind up testosterone making it “useless” (the thinking that bound T is useless is also not true).
Here is one recent study that I found quick. Skip to the conclusion:
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin Modifies Testosterone Action and Metabolism in Prostate Cancer Cells
SHBG has been used as one measure for injection protocol frequency for myself and others for many years. It is why those who are low are frequently doing daily injections. It is discussed elsewhere here as SHBG has been just about beat to death in older posts.
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