Testosterone confusing lab results

[slicktop]

I'm curious as to what made you switch to enanthate? Do you feel different on enanthate? What do you love about it? I take cypionate but I'm always looking for something new to experiment with.

Long story short, when I started on TRT it was on cypionate, and I had numerous benefits in the gym and general well being, with the exception that my cardio endurance dropped significantly. Specifically, my calves would just start cramping to the point I couldn't run anymore after a half a mile, when I was previously running 3 miles every other day, sometimes daily. I struggled to get it better, but never got it back 100%. Switched to enanthate and all my troubles went away in a couple of weeks. I also have less water retention, and while it makes no sense, I seem to aromatize less.

 

[Relar]

That's not how it works. The rate of excretion is necessarily controlled by the rate of absorption, which in turn is dependent on the mode of testosterone delivery. If on average you're absorbing 10 mg per day of testosterone from an injected depot, then on average you'll be metabolizing and excreting 10 mg per day no matter what your SHBG is.

So the number of shbg doesnt affect total testosterone? If you have low or high shbg the result at total testosterone will be the same?

 

[Weasel]

So the number of shbg doesnt affect total testosterone? If you have low or high shbg the result at total testosterone will be the same?

Generally speaking...Correct

 

[Gman86]

That's not how it works. The rate of excretion is necessarily controlled by the rate of absorption, which in turn is dependent on the mode of testosterone delivery. If on average you're absorbing 10 mg per day of testosterone from an injected depot, then on average you'll be metabolizing and excreting 10 mg per day no matter what your SHBG is.

I knew you were gonna reply to this! Lol. I literally was thinking about you as I wrote it haha. All I know is that low SHBG guys will have greater fluctuations in testosterone levels in a short amount of time. Why or how it happens is beyond me. That’s your department.

 

[Relar]

Generally speaking...Correct

Thank you a lot!

 

[Weasel]

I knew you were gonna reply to this! Lol. I literally was thinking about you as I wrote it haha. All I know is that low SHBG guys will have greater fluctuations in testosterone levels in a short amount of time. Why or how it happens is beyond me. That’s your department.

Here's my understanding. Testosterone in releasing into the blood stream after injection at a given rate like cataceous stated. This is a constant depended on the ester used. Once in the blood stream a certain amount is bound by SHBG, rendering it useless to the body. The remain testosterone is then Free T. Low SHBG guys will have more Free T which will create a higher peak level creating larger swings and also faster clearance rates. IIRC SHBG is not suicidal and come of the bound T is released back into the bloodstream but for low SHBG this would be a small amount. Opposite for high SHBG guys as more T ends up bound, and is then released back into the blodstream creating more steady state T levels.

That's the jist of it I believe.

 

[Cataceous]

So the number of shbg doesnt affect total testosterone? If you have low or high shbg the result at total testosterone will be the same?

It is free testosterone that is fixed—determined by dose in the case of TRT. If only SHBG changes, then total testosterone adjusts so that free testosterone stays the same. This is because the rate of metabolism and excretion is pretty much proportional to free testosterone. On TRT you must on average use and excrete testosterone at the same rate you're putting it in. If the input of testosterone is constant then free testosterone must be roughly constant too.

 

[Cataceous]

... All I know is that low SHBG guys will have greater fluctuations in testosterone levels in a short amount of time. ...

If this is ever demonstrated under controlled conditions then I'll reconsider. But on its face the claim makes no sense. As I've argued before, SHBG cannot affect the rate of absorption of testosterone from an injected depot. Absorption is instead controlled mainly by the carrier oil and testosterone ester, along with factors such as injection location and activity level.

 

[Cataceous]

... Low SHBG guys will have more Free T which will create a higher peak level creating larger swings and also faster clearance rates. IIRC SHBG is not suicidal and come of the bound T is released back into the bloodstream but for low SHBG this would be a small amount. Opposite for high SHBG guys as more T ends up bound, and is then released back into the blodstream creating more steady state T levels.
...

As stated above, all else being equal, in TRT free testosterone returns to its original level when SHBG changes. Free testosterone should basically be proportional to dose. My own data demonstrate this quite nicely:

These measurements took place with differing SHBG levels.

 

[antelopers]

If this is ever demonstrated under controlled conditions then I'll reconsider. But on its face the claim makes no sense. As I've argued before, SHBG cannot affect the rate of absorption of testosterone from an injected depot. Absorption is instead controlled mainly by the carrier oil and testosterone ester, along with factors such as injection location and activity level.

Perhaps it doesn't affect absorption rate, but how long it remains in the bloodstream, and that absorption rates are quicker than we think with shbg being a big factor in stability of blood levels?

 

[Cataceous]

Perhaps it doesn't affect absorption rate, but how long it remains in the bloodstream, and that absorption rates are quicker than we think with shbg being a big factor in stability of blood levels?

Take a look at my fluid flow analogy, picture attached below, and then explain what you're proposing as it applies to this model. You're accepting that SHBG does not affect the upper tank. How then can absorption rates be "quicker than we think"? SHBG controls the outlet size of the lower tank. If SHBG goes lower this means the outlet size becomes larger. Then the outflow—free testosterone—temporarily increases until the water level (total testosterone) in the lower tank is low enough that the outflow (free testosterone) again matches inflow from the upper tank.

 

[antelopers]

I'm saying that is it possible that the outlet size of tank 1 is very large, and that the outlet size of tank 2 controlled by shbg has a much more dramatic effect in speed of clearance from the blood than you might be thinking? We have seen how rapidly test levels can ride regardless of ester. Just a thought. It seems like anecdotally, guys with low shbg levels on their labs show a fast clearance rate. So whether it's shbg directly, or being a hyper excreter lowers shbg indirectly, there seems to be something there. And just because we can't explain it directly doesn't mean the phenomena doesn't seem prevalent

 

[Gman86]

I’m way too dumb to figure out what’s actually going on, or why. All I know is that guys with low SHBG levels will have 1000 T level on Monday, then 500 on Wednesday. The high SHBG guys will have 1000 T level on Monday, and 800 on Wednesday. Why is this happening? No fckn idea lol. Just know that it happens, and if low SHBG guys want steadier levels, they have to inject more frequently than high SHBG guys.

 

[antelopers]

@Gman86 that's what I'm saying. Just because the mechanism can't be explained doesn't mean that's not what we observe. Decades of forum posts showing this, so we can't dismiss every single case. When you have enough anecdotes with labs, that becomes evidence.

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 that's what I'm saying. Just because the mechanism can't he explained doesn't mean that's not what we observe. Decades of forum posts showing this, so we can't dismiss every single case. When you have enough anecdotes with labs, that becomes evidence.

Exactly. I’m unfortunately too dumb to understand what Cataceous is trying to explain lol. But I feel like we might all be saying the same thing, I’m just wording it incorrectly. Either way, I agree, it doesn’t change the fact that this is anecdotally what we see in labwork with low and high SHBG guys.

 

[antelopers]

It's definitely possible. I have nothing but the utmost for cataceous, he has such an analytical mind that I'm always blown away by his posts. I just know in my experience that it's good to not dismiss an observation even if we can't find the evidence behind it yet. It could be somewhere none of us are looking, or that we're even capable of testing.

 

[Cataceous]

I'm saying that is it possible that the outlet size of tank 1 is very large, and that the outlet size of tank 2 controlled by shbg has a much more dramatic effect in speed of clearance from the blood than you might be thinking? ...

But this doesn't reflect reality. The half-life for testosterone esters entering circulation is 0.8 days for propionate, and multiple days for longer esters. These represent very small holes for the upper tank. In contrast, the half-life for clearance of testosterone from plasma is around 10-100 minutes. So the hole in the lower tank is tens to hundreds of times bigger.

... It seems like anecdotally, guys with low shbg levels on their labs show a fast clearance rate. ...

They can't clear testosterone faster than they receive it, and the absorption from depots is a slow trickle.

Aside from dubious anecdotes, is there any evidence to support what you're saying?

 

[antelopers]

But this doesn't reflect reality. The half-life for testosterone esters entering circulation is 0.8 days for propionate, and multiple days for longer esters. These represent very small holes for the upper tank. In contrast, the half-life for clearance of testosterone from plasma is around 10-100 minutes. So the hole in the lower tank is tens to hundreds of times bigger.



They can't clear testosterone faster than they receive it, and the absorption from depots is a slow trickle.

Aside from dubious anecdotes, is there any evidence to support what you're saying?

Nope just anecdotes. Low shbg guys have posted over and over again showing fast clearance rates. I am not claiming to have an explanation. But I am saying you can't dismiss dozens of forums where low shbg members have the same experience. Maybe it's not shbg directly. Who knows. I'm not looking to argue, nor am I equipped to do so, but we should not be dismissing this observation made by trt users and trt doctors alike.

 

[Cataceous]

Nope just anecdotes. Low shbg guys have posted over and over again showing fast clearance rates. I am not claiming to have an explanation. But I am saying you can't dismiss dozens of forums where low shbg members have the same experience. Maybe it's not shbg directly. ...

Let me pose a challenge then. How many valid anecdotes can you point to? These must have two, post-peak serum testosterone measurements that demonstrate unusually low apparent half-lives for the esters.

The more plausible alternative is that the anecdotes consist of low-SHBG guys posting trough total testosterone measurements that seem relatively low for the dose. So the assumption is made, incorrectly, that the peak is normal and the drop in levels is faster. Thus a myth is born. But instead, it is expected that when all else is equal, the low-SHBG guy has lower total testosterone throughout the injection cycle, and the apparent half-life of the ester is no different than what the high-SHBG guy sees.

 

[antelopers]

Let me pose a challenge then. How many valid anecdotes can you point to? These must have two, post-peak serum testosterone measurements that demonstrate unusually low apparent half-lives for the esters.

The more plausible alternative is that the anecdotes consist of low-SHBG guys posting trough total testosterone measurements that seem relatively low for the dose. So the assumption is made, incorrectly, that the peak is normal and the drop in levels is faster. Thus a myth is born. But instead, it is expected that when all else is equal, the low-SHBG guy has lower total testosterone throughout the injection cycle, and the apparent half-life of the ester is no different than what the high-SHBG guy sees.

I see what you're saying now. It seems to be a trend. I have seen a few peak vs trough measurements with wide ranges on low shbg men, but most just test trough. Also I have seen peak vs trough on normal shbg men and most also have some have wide ranges, they seemed to be less than low shbg men. I certainly had a much wider range of peak vs trough than I expected and I have normal shbg levels
And I'd have to go search for them I don't keep a database of bloodwork on hand. All I'm saying is that something in low shbg seems to correlate with lower than expected t numbers so one naturally assumes it's associated with shbg in some form or another.