Switched from Androgel to Cypionate! How long until I stabilize?

[Pacman]

So, first a little background:

I am 26 years old and I have primary hypogonadism. Been on the 1.62% Androgel (4 pumps daily) for one year now. My T levels have (finally, for the first time ever since I started TRT in November 2013) reached pretty high healthy levels [Total: 716 Free: 152] and I have begun to feel AMAZING (and very horny all the time) - coincidentally at the same time I have decided to switch over to the shots. Now before you flame me for switching over right when my T levels are so good, please hear me out - I cannot imagine myself applying four actuations of gel a day for the rest of my life, it is just WAY too inconvenient! Obviously if the gel was my only choice, I would do it. But since it's not, I am thinking long term, and I have decided that the shots are a better option, and wholly more convenient (and cheaper, but you can't really put a price tag on quality of life IMO).

I got my first IM injection of 100 mg of Testosterone Cypionate on Tuesday morning (12/2/14) and now it is Thursday evening (12/4/14). The last application of Androgel was on 12/1/14 (the day before the shot).

[Side Note] Also, I would like to point out that when I would apply the Androgel, I would feel horniest about 4 hours after application. I tested this on many various different days, and the results have been consistent. According to my Endo, Androgel is slow acting and its effects take some time to show. This is strange because when I wouldn't apply Androgel, my sex drive would "delay" itself (usually) until a few hours after I applied the gel. Does anyone else have this experience of immediate effects on sex drive from Androgel?

Here's the issue:

I am not really feeling it. I feel fatigued and tired. I am feeling somewhat emotional. My sex drive dropped. I feel as if it is not working. Now I know that TRT can take at least a few weeks to show its full effects (and yes, I have read Nelson's post on this exact topic here: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?1519-How-long-does-testosterone-take-to-show-effects -- AMAZING post!), but it's not like I am just starting TRT, all I am doing is switching protocols, so why would I feel a sudden drop in the beneficial effects of the treatment? In fact, shouldn't it be the opposite? Shouldn't I be feeling GREAT the first few days after the shot? It's a whole lot more testosterone being absorbed by my body at once than 4 gel applications. What is going on here? I am starting to get very worried! I injected the 100 mg into my quads right with the medical assistant at the office, so I know I did it right. Why do I feel like this?????

 

[CoastWatcher]

So, first a little background:

I am 26 years old and I have primary hypogonadism. Been on the 1.62% Androgel (4 pumps daily) for one year now. My T levels have (finally, for the first time ever since I started TRT in November 2013) reached pretty high healthy levels [Total: 716 Free: 152] and I have begun to feel AMAZING (and very horny all the time) - coincidentally at the same time I have decided to switch over to the shots. Now before you flame me for switching over right when my T levels are so good, please hear me out - I cannot imagine myself applying four actuations of gel a day for the rest of my life, it is just WAY too inconvenient! Obviously if the gel was my only choice, I would do it. But since it's not, I am thinking long term, and I have decided that the shots are a better option, and wholly more convenient (and cheaper, but you can't really put a price tag on quality of life IMO).

I got my first IM injection of 100 mg of Testosterone Cypionate on Tuesday morning (12/2/14) and now it is Thursday evening (12/4/14). The last application of Androgel was on 12/1/14 (the day before the shot).

[Side Note] Also, I would like to point out that when I would apply the Androgel, I would feel horniest about 4 hours after application. I tested this on many various different days, and the results have been consistent. According to my Endo, Androgel is slow acting and its effects take some time to show. This is strange because when I wouldn't apply Androgel, my sex drive would "delay" itself (usually) until a few hours after I applied the gel. Does anyone else have this experience of immediate effects on sex drive from Androgel?

Here's the issue:

I am not really feeling it. I feel fatigued and tired. I am feeling somewhat emotional. My sex drive dropped. I feel as if it is not working. Now I know that TRT can take at least a few weeks to show its full effects (and yes, I have read Nelson's post on this exact topic here: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?1519-How-long-does-testosterone-take-to-show-effects -- AMAZING post!), but it's not like I am just starting TRT, all I am doing is switching protocols, so why would I feel a sudden drop in the beneficial effects of the treatment? In fact, shouldn't it be the opposite? Shouldn't I be feeling GREAT the first few days after the shot? It's a whole lot more testosterone being absorbed by my body at once than 4 gel applications. What is going on here? I am starting to get very worried! I injected the 100 mg into my quads right with the medical assistant at the office, so I know I did it right. Why do I feel like this?????

Did you monitor E2 levels when you were using Androgel?

 

[Vettester Chris]

Pacman, don't worry, it will catch up with you and all will be good! Peak value can happen around 3 days, and of course half life is around the 7 to 8 day mark. You will need to discover how much cypionate it will take to keep your serum in that low 700'sh ng/dl range. 100mg is definitely a good starting point. If it were me, I'd start going 50mg every 3.5 days. If you need to titrate up to 120mg, so be it, but still look at the 2x week split.

As noted above, keep an eye on your E2 as well. In some cases you will find that E2 is a little more problematic with injections compared to gels. Again, 2x per week will help in that area, and I noticed it was fully controllable when going SubQ (No AI's were needed).

Also, don't feel you need to justify making the switch to injections, or worry about getting flamed. We get it, and it won't happen here. Your body was used to the daily applications with the gel, and now it's adjusting to an ester that has a longer half life. At the time you posted it had only been 2 days ... If you do another 50mg in a day or two, then 50mg every 3.5 days thereafter, I anticipate you will be styling real quick here. Look at running more labs in 4 to 6 weeks ... Just my suggestion.

 

[Pacman]

Yes, I do check my estrogen levels in blood tests. I still haven't received my last results from my last blood test (which is REALLY weird, because it was like three weeks ago). My estrogen tends to be on the high end (based on previous blood tests), although nothing really out of range. My Endo says that ratio (between T and Estrogen) matters more than just the level of estrogen by itself (i.e. how high my E is in relation to my T).

I read that Androgel's half life is 10-100 minutes (source: http://www.rxlist.com/androgel-162-drug/clinical-pharmacology.htm). This means that it becomes active quickly and leaves quickly, right? That would explain the side note I wrote in my original post. On that same page, it says:

When AndroGel 1.62% treatment is discontinued, serum testosterone concentrations return to approximately baseline concentrations within 48-72 hours after administration of the last dose.

Does that mean that my T levels drop to pre-TRT levels in just 2-3 days?! My pre-TRT baseline was Total: 55, Free: 7!! My levels will drop to that in just two days?! Is it possible that Testostrone Cypionate takes longer than 2-3 days to take effect? It is really hard for me to feel fine knowing that I'll just check what my T levels are in 4-6 weeks when I'm feeling so shitty right now. I am afraid that my body is not absorbing the testosterone or something. Is it possible that maybe my estrogen levels are on the high end AND my T levels just rapidly drop after discontinuing the Androgel is what is causing this, and will continue to be like this until my my body adjusts to the IM injections? Are these likely possibilities, or am I just being wishy washy about this and need to relax and wait it out a few more days? Have there been cases where people did not absorb IM injections at all??

I am really worried, because this personal characteristic of worrying and being anxious all the time about things was very typical of me before I started treatment, and kinda dissipated over the last year (slowly but surely, barely noticed the whole time, but just realized now that I haven't fretted like this in a while). And now I am experiencing the same anxiety and thoughts and self-pity emotions.

If my T levels drop down to baseline levels, how long will it take to go back up? I know this to be individual and really depends on the individual, but ball park estimate?? Up until they do, will my muscles catabolize?

Are any (or all) of my concerns justified? I have only be on T for one year, and this is the first change in protocol I have ever done, so honestly, I am a baby in this stuff. I do not know which of my questions are wacko questions/concerns and which ones are considered normal questions/concerns. I read A LOT on the topic of TRT, but I still feel quite unexperienced in this stuff (because I am). Did anyone here experience what I'm experiencing when they switched protocols? If so, how did you deal with it, and how long did it take to come out of it, and was it like this or better or worse?? Thanks!!!

 

[Vettester Chris]

Pac, relax! You're wiggin out after just a few days of making the switch. The slow release ester of cypionate gets metabolized much slower. Your serum levels will come up, permitting your medication isn't bunk or anything like that. When I made the switch from Gel to Cyp, it was somewhere in that first week that I felt just the same. Again, if you're 3 or 4 days in, look at taking another 50mg, then do it every 3.5 days thereafter. Your body is not rejecting or immune to the injections, or anything like that.

Also, it's just normal protocol to recheck your serum levels in 4 to 6 weeks, then make any needed adjustments from there. I'm telling you this because it's factual and we are here to help. If you want to run bloods sooner or later, that's up to your physician and you. Maybe your doctor should have got your some prop, or a blended ester treatment like Sustanon during the first part of this transition.

 

[Pacman]

Vettester - Okay that helps me feel much better actually. Yes it totally is real Testosterone Cypionate, unless CVS gave me a placebo (in which case, I could sue them?). If you felt the same way in the first week you switched from Gel to Cyp, and this is just the transition, then I guess I can handle these few days until my next injection. I just wish my doctor would have told me that there is a possibility that I'd feel a drop in the first few days of the switch. Maybe he forgot to mention it to me, or just didn't want to worry me. I don't know. But I'm definitely gonna bring this up with him.

And by the way, I wasn't attacking your advice at all! I really didn't mean to make it seem as if I didn't appreciate or agree with your advice. I know from the day I started TRT that it's just normal protocol to run blood tests at least 4 weeks after any change in treatment. I just felt really worried and shaken up by my own thoughts, so I just expressed how hard it would be for me to wait four weeks feeling like this. I totally appreciate your advice! I know you are here to help, please don't take it the wrong way!

I just have not felt this way in a VERY long time. I know it's only been a few days, but this is just the way I happen to feel. If this is what women have to go through once a month, I will thank the lord every day I'm a dude (that gets administered T). I will make this through and everything will be fine. I also applied on one dose of Androgel just so I can feel better psychologically (and it will probably actually make me feel somewhat better).

Thank you so much for your input, I really do appreciate it!!

 

[Pacman]

Hey guys! I just wanted to update ya'll, and at the same time post a few questions:

(all the shots and dosages of T-Cyp are at 200 mg/mL)

12/2/14 Tues. - 1st shot (0.5 mL)
12/8/14 Mon. - 2nd shot (0.5 mL)
12/16/14 Tues. - 3rd shot (0.5 mL)
12/23/14 Tues. - 4th shot (0.5 mL)
12/29/14 Mon. - 5th shot (0.8 mL - increased dosage, switched doctors)
1/5/15 Mon. - 6th shot (0.8 mL)
1/12/15 Mon. - 7th shot (~0.9 mL - I increased it a bit because it's really hard for me to get rid of the air bubble, so I just increased it by 0.1 mL)
1/9/15 Mon. - 8th shot (~0.9 mL)

Weeks 1-4 = Felt like complete shit. No better description than that. Felt horrible. Low sex drive and fatigued.

Weeks 5-6 = WAAAYYYYYYYY better! Sex drive jumped up sky-high, I felt an inner drive to go out and do stuff, totally felt the T rising in my body. There was no doubt about it.

Weeks 7-8 = I feel a drop in the benefits. Also my sex drive is lower, I don't feel as energetic as weeks 5-6. I don't feel depressed, but I do feel very "blehhhhhh"... kinda like I don't feel bad or good, just plain okay, so I can't complain of any negatives, but I can't say I feel GOOD either.. This is strange because I kinda increased my own dosage by 0.1 mL, even though that's probably a relatively negligible amount to increase, but still....

With weeks 7-8, it seems as if the benefits were felt very dominantly on days 2-4 of the week, but the others they were much weaker. To elaborate:

Monday = I take the shot
Tuesday = Feel great, energy + sex drive and function
Wednesday = Feel great, energy + sex drive and function
Thursday = Feel great, energy + sex drive and function
Friday = Blehh
Saturday = Blehh
Sunday = Blehh
Monday = Blehh, and I take the shot, and I begin the next week's cycle again

I want to feel like Tues. - Thurs. ALL week!! Maybe I can take 0.8 mL twice a week? I know that dosage is probably higher than the conventional therapeutic dosing, but basing my current conclusion on weeks 7-8, that's what I feel like I need. I obviously wouldn't do this without a doctor's approval and guidance, but are there any such cases that would justify that dosage? What do you guys think??

Also, on Friday I met with this chick I met on Tinder. I knew it was on, so I purposely applied some leftover Androgel I had just to spike my T levels. Just as backup, I took a Cialis like 4 hours before I met her, and still for some reason, when we were together, my sexual functioning was very low (short-lengthed erections, and no ejaculation whatsoever). How is that physically possible??? Did anyone else experience this despite the fact that their T levels were high? Are there other reasons for sexual dysfunction than low T levels? Friday's occurrence was a tad bit concerning for me.....

So yeah, that's where I am holding right now. I'm definitely doing better than in the beginning of the T shots, but not as good as I'd like to be. Feedback/suggestions/advice is always more than welcome!!

 

[croaker24]

Pacman -

The suggestion made earlier was to break up the one week's dosage into half and inject every 3.5 days. That is what I do, and I think, is the current paradigm for injections.

I also started with Androgel and stuck it out for a year but never got my levels up high enough. I had that initial spike in libido that eventually faded away. I switched to cypionate last year and while it took a few weeks for it to stabilize, my levels are consistently higher and I feel far better on a daily basis. And thus far, no E2 issues.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Croaker24 is on target. I, too, failed to improve on Androgel and moved to injection. Pending my latest round of tests, I will be increasing my dose and injecting every 3.5 days rather than weekly. My doctor and the moderators of this forum believe I will be satisfied with the results.

Sexual dysfunction can be the result of issues other than low testosterone. The forum highlights these and offers excellent perspectives on overcoming them.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Ditto to what CoastWatcher and Croaker24 said. You may also introduce HCG as I did:

https://www.excelmale.com/?s=149-Ho...o-Preserve-Fertility-Libido-and-Testicle-Size

 

[Pacman]

Is there any advantage to incorporating HCG with my shots even though I have Primary Hypogonadism? My LH and FSH are both 20+ mIU/mL on my most recent blood test (which was approximately 12/20/14), which is less than it used to be - a whopping 40+ mIU/mL a year ago... Wouldn't HCG increase my already maximized LH and FSH hormones? Are there any benefits to HCG for me despite the fact that they will have no effect on my testicular activity? What benefit is there for me whilst my LH and FSH are still at their current levels?

 

[SuperDutyDave]

I tried gels for almost a year with dosing up to 3 times per day (pain in ass) and had a decent rise in levels at first but soon thereafter levels dropped to down to less than acceptable. It was obvious I needed something different. Also was worried about effecting wife kids with residual

i moved to t-cyp shots via sub-q injection along with hcg and very quickly saw levels rise and stabilize within a month. It did take about a year to really have levels dialed in with adjusting dosing of T-Cyp HCG and estradiol med. 3 components. Now been on same dosing for 2 years and I'm stabile and feel pretty damn good 95% of time