I just would like to hear from people that switched from IM to subq (keeping dose and frequency the same) if it had any impact on hematocrit. I have been thinking about injecting my nandrolone subq (instead of IM) and keep testosterone IM (i feel better and also my estradiol gets too low on subq) to see if that would lower hematocrit a bit.
Subq vs IM impact on Hematocrit
- Thread starter HealthMan
- Start date
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
Summary of a study presented a few months ago:
M
MarkM
Guest
From the study that Nelson posted......
"Two hundred thirty-two men took part in the UC study. Baseline levels were recorded for all men in each of the four measurement areas, and then again at 6-12 weeks post-treatment. The results showed that men who underwent SubQ injections of testosterone resulted in a 14% greater increase in total testosterone levels than the testosterone level of IM patients. SubQ patients also resulted in a 41% lower hematocrit post-therapy than IM patients and 26.5% lower E2 levels. For both groups of men, there were no elevated levels of PSA."
I tried SubQ a few years ago and got an irritable lump at injection site that would last for three to four days. I was injecting E3.5D so I constantly had that lump. Consequently, I stopped the SubQ and went to shallow IM in the deltoid and ventrogluteal. I have been happy with that protocol but seeing these finding makes me think that trying the SubQ again would be worthwhile. Previously I was injecting 90 mg of T Cyp E3.5D and maybe it was the large volume of T Cyp that was giving me that lump. I am now on daily injections and since I am injecting much smaller amounts I may not react the same and get the injection site lump.
"Two hundred thirty-two men took part in the UC study. Baseline levels were recorded for all men in each of the four measurement areas, and then again at 6-12 weeks post-treatment. The results showed that men who underwent SubQ injections of testosterone resulted in a 14% greater increase in total testosterone levels than the testosterone level of IM patients. SubQ patients also resulted in a 41% lower hematocrit post-therapy than IM patients and 26.5% lower E2 levels. For both groups of men, there were no elevated levels of PSA."
I tried SubQ a few years ago and got an irritable lump at injection site that would last for three to four days. I was injecting E3.5D so I constantly had that lump. Consequently, I stopped the SubQ and went to shallow IM in the deltoid and ventrogluteal. I have been happy with that protocol but seeing these finding makes me think that trying the SubQ again would be worthwhile. Previously I was injecting 90 mg of T Cyp E3.5D and maybe it was the large volume of T Cyp that was giving me that lump. I am now on daily injections and since I am injecting much smaller amounts I may not react the same and get the injection site lump.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I also rather use shallow IM than subcutaneous for the same reasons you mentioned.
A while ago i tried subq. Injecting on my abdomen would always give me lumps. So i inject subq on my leg and didn’t have any issues
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MarkM
Guest
I was injecting SubQ two inches from the navel and on the love handle area. I don't have a lot of body fat, normally run between 8 to 10%.
M
MarkM
Guest
I have never tried SubQ on my leg. I don't have much fat there to grab but I can at least get a pinch.
Last edited by a moderator:
M
MarkM
Guest
Well, I am going to try the SubQ again and see if I get the lump since I'm now injecting a much smaller volume on a daily basis. I actually started this morning. No lump yet in the past I would already have the lump. Maybe for me, the smaller volume will make the difference.
M
MarkM
Guest
HealthMan, I just switched from IM to SubQ this morning. So in time I will be able to tell if any of my numbers; testosterone, hematocrit, E2, etc.....change. I've been on the same protocol for years with consistent numbers so I will easily be able to tell if I see any measurable difference.
Looking forward to hearing from you! Best of luck
Same here. I am extremely lean (<10% bf). But i can pinch the skin enough to used a 30G 5/16 insulin needle
For those of you mentioning subq lumps, PIP, etc:
I find that volumes of about .35ml are about the max for me for subq. That is for subq in the VG area. Anything more and I also get lumps. That volume would be far less in abdominal subq.
On that note I avoid abdominal subq - I know it works for some but always leaves a sore spot for me.
While sitting on the toilet, place thumb on iliac crest and index/middle fingers on greater tronchater. Pinch. Inject into that fat. I split that zone in two sections and rotate. For example, right side rear, right side front, left side front, left side rear. Been doing it this way for years.
I use the little 30g .3ml 5/16” syringes for this. Works great.
I find that volumes of about .35ml are about the max for me for subq. That is for subq in the VG area. Anything more and I also get lumps. That volume would be far less in abdominal subq.
On that note I avoid abdominal subq - I know it works for some but always leaves a sore spot for me.
While sitting on the toilet, place thumb on iliac crest and index/middle fingers on greater tronchater. Pinch. Inject into that fat. I split that zone in two sections and rotate. For example, right side rear, right side front, left side front, left side rear. Been doing it this way for years.
I use the little 30g .3ml 5/16” syringes for this. Works great.
Last edited:
madman
Super Moderator
Read over post #20.
IM versus Sub-q T Injections: Effect on TT, hematocrit, E2, and PSA
Comparison of Outcomes for Hypogonadal Men Treated with Intramuscular Testosterone Cypionate Versus Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate (2020) Introduction Intramuscular testosterone cypionate (IM-TC) is the conventional treatment option for hypogonadal men with baseline serum total...
www.excelmale.com
FT level will have a significant impact on such blood markers.
As I have stated numerous times on the forum too many get caught up in thinking that injecting more frequently (daily) will have a significant impact on lowering estradiol/HCT which is not a given as unfortunately many still persist to run absurdly high FT levels.
Even then regardless of whether one is injecting sub-q vs IM, injection more frequently, minimizing peak--->trough when it comes to elevated RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit, I would be more concerned with what FT level you are running let alone at the trough on such protocol!
madman
Super Moderator
Comes down to the individual and how they react.
The volume of the oily solution can have a big impact and most would recommend injecting .5 mL or less.
Bad reaction to the excipients/ester can also cause issues for some.
Injection technique can also play a role.
When I first started trt I was using Depo-Testosterone (TC) 100 mg/mL strength.
Injecting a whopping 1mL of the oily solution (100 mg/week) strictly sub-q into abdominal fat (12weeks).
Unfortunately in Canada, this is the only strength available.
Even at such volume, I was lucky and never experienced any lumps/pain.
Almost 5 years on trt and a majority of the time using Delatestryl (TE) 200 mg/mL strength.
Injecting .375 mL (150 mg T/week) split twice weekly (75 mg T every 3.5 days) strictly sub-q into abdominal fat.
Never experienced and lumps/pain let alone consistently maintain high-end TT/FT level.
Never touched an AI!
madman
Super Moderator
Could easily switch over to .5 mL or better yet .3mL LDS fixed insulin syringe 30-31G X 15/64 (6MM) needle length.
I use BD or Easy Touch .5mL 31G x 6MM needle length.
Still fairly quick to draw/inject let alone smooth as butter, pain-free, and never experienced any leakage of the oily solution to boot!
M
MarkM
Guest
I am currently using the EasyTouch 29ga, .5ML, 1/2" insulin syringe.
M
MarkM
Guest
@madman
"FT level will have a significant impact on such blood markers.
As I have stated numerous times on the forum too many get caught up in thinking that injecting more frequently (daily) will have a significant impact on lowering estradiol/HCT which is not a given as unfortunately many still persist to run absurdly high FT levels.
Even then regardless of whether one is injecting sub-q vs IM, injection more frequently, minimizing peak--->trough when it comes to elevated RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit, I would be more concerned with what FT level you are running let alone at the trough on such protocol!"
I have attached some of my blood work from two different time periods. On 7/20/18 I was injecting IM 180 mg of T Cyp a week broken down into 90 mg E3.5 Days. I am now injecting IM 24 mg per day of T Cyp, 168 mg per week. I whittled down the spreadsheet so it would fit on one page and show the markers I wanted to compare. My spreadsheet actually goes back to 2005 and I run blood work every three to four months.
For several years I had been struggling with my RBC, Hb and HCT getting a little too high and I decided in September of 2018 to switch to smaller daily injections. For me, the daily injections have worked well and I do not have the swing in peak and trough as much since I have started the daily injections. I probably don't get quite as high as a peak on daily injections as you would with a larger volume injection on E3.5D injections but my troughs are definitely much higher on daily's verse the E3.5D. I am also injecting less total for the week, not by a lot, but still less and my blood markers are better and I have good T levels, both total and more importantly FT.
My DHT levels are a little high but they always have been so I not concerned about them. My doctor isn't concerned about the low amount of thyroid antibodies that show up and he thinks the TSH is better off being a little low than being over-active. I'm not sure yet how I feel about that. Not too concerned but I need to research a little more.
I'm 62 yrs old and overall I am in pretty good shape, body fat is relatively good at about 10%, and I have real good muscle tone, and a healthy sex life.
@HealthMan this is where my blood work is going from E3.5D shallow IM to daily IM. In six to 8 weeks I will run some more bloodwork and see what happens switching to SubQ taking the same dose. I hope I did not hijack your thread.
"FT level will have a significant impact on such blood markers.
As I have stated numerous times on the forum too many get caught up in thinking that injecting more frequently (daily) will have a significant impact on lowering estradiol/HCT which is not a given as unfortunately many still persist to run absurdly high FT levels.
Even then regardless of whether one is injecting sub-q vs IM, injection more frequently, minimizing peak--->trough when it comes to elevated RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit, I would be more concerned with what FT level you are running let alone at the trough on such protocol!"
I have attached some of my blood work from two different time periods. On 7/20/18 I was injecting IM 180 mg of T Cyp a week broken down into 90 mg E3.5 Days. I am now injecting IM 24 mg per day of T Cyp, 168 mg per week. I whittled down the spreadsheet so it would fit on one page and show the markers I wanted to compare. My spreadsheet actually goes back to 2005 and I run blood work every three to four months.
For several years I had been struggling with my RBC, Hb and HCT getting a little too high and I decided in September of 2018 to switch to smaller daily injections. For me, the daily injections have worked well and I do not have the swing in peak and trough as much since I have started the daily injections. I probably don't get quite as high as a peak on daily injections as you would with a larger volume injection on E3.5D injections but my troughs are definitely much higher on daily's verse the E3.5D. I am also injecting less total for the week, not by a lot, but still less and my blood markers are better and I have good T levels, both total and more importantly FT.
My DHT levels are a little high but they always have been so I not concerned about them. My doctor isn't concerned about the low amount of thyroid antibodies that show up and he thinks the TSH is better off being a little low than being over-active. I'm not sure yet how I feel about that. Not too concerned but I need to research a little more.
I'm 62 yrs old and overall I am in pretty good shape, body fat is relatively good at about 10%, and I have real good muscle tone, and a healthy sex life.
@HealthMan this is where my blood work is going from E3.5D shallow IM to daily IM. In six to 8 weeks I will run some more bloodwork and see what happens switching to SubQ taking the same dose. I hope I did not hijack your thread.
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