Sub Q injections quit working

[Cataceous]

We dont know why, but yes the data is more than enough according to your own words for anecdotal data itself. I dont know why, I gave some theories but really dont know why for sure. The studies have a lot of flaws as discussed.

So at the end you suggest risking the treatment being innefective because of a possible pain? ...

While the studies alone demolish the credibility of your "evidence," even the anecdotal accounts of successful SC injections on this site are sufficient for dismissing your claim. The "risk of ineffective treatment" from SC injections remains a fiction in your head without better evidence. You yourself acknowledge not inspecting injection sites for leakage, which should be one of the first steps when numbers are lower than expected.

 

[ivkonst2017]

While the studies alone demolish the credibility of your "evidence," even the anecdotal accounts of successful SC injections on this site are sufficient for dismissing your claim. The "risk of ineffective treatment" from SC injections remains a fiction in your head without better evidence. You yourself acknowledge not inspecting injection sites for leakage, which should be one of the first steps when numbers are lower than expected.

I dont deny a lot of guys do good on sub q. But many dont.
In fact since Ive joined the forum Ive seen around 10 other guys supporting my thesis. They have also reported seeing enough people who dont get the expected serum concentrations on sub q and do better on IM.

Only you and one more guy here continue to say that sub q should be working as good as IM in almost anyone. And you throw studies that have a lot of flaws and differences from a real life situation and also the timestamp is far from enough.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Only you and one more guy here continue to say that sub q should be working as good as IM in almost anyone. And you throw studies that have a lot of flaws and differences from a real life situation and also the timestamp is far from enough.

You haven't pointed to one real flaw in these studies. Instead you invent this wild idea that benzyl alcohol is somehow responsible for the allegedly missing testosterone, but only for SC and not for IM. And never mind that BA is used in thousands of medications and there's no indication of any such bizarre interactions.

The preponderance of the data point to the fact that most men will be successful with SC injections. Saying otherwise is simply spewing misinformation.

 

[MarkM]

Interesting discussion back and forth. I decided a few weeks ago to find out for myself the difference between IM and SubQ and what impact it may have on me.

I have been injecting shallow IM daily for 3 years. I have very good testosterone levels, both TT and FT, normal E2 levels, and good blood markers. All is good with my TRT protocol. I guess you'd say I am dialed in.

But, I am going to try SubQ, injecting the same amount of T Cypionate as I do with the daily shallow IM. Being that I am very dialed in I feel like I am a good candidate to see if there is a difference, if any, between the two methods. I have been on TRT since 2005 and have a spreadsheet with my blood work all the way back to that time. It will be easy for me to see if see what changes take place in my blood work.

I'll wait at least 10 weeks to make sure I have a solid steady state under the SubQ and then retest. So far, after about three weeks I feel the same as I have felt on shallow IM.

Whatever the results are, I realize we are all different and I am just one person and others may or may not get similar results to what I will get.

 

[ivkonst2017]

For what is worthy shallow IM worked for me similar as sub q and producing similar levels, way lower than deep IM. But at that time I was above 25 percent body fat.

I think shallow IM becomes either IM or sub q depending on your body fat percentage. I could try it again now when Im leaner, but I prefer to use sligthly larger needle to make sure I put the oil where it will work with my body as expected and I dont wanna mess with my excellently working protocol now. If Im gonna change my protocol I would try injecting every third day instead of every other day like now.

 

[MarkM]

I run about 10% body fat so the shallow IM works for me. My testosterone is very consistent with TT around 1050 ng/dl and FT around 32 pg/ml at trough. Both well over range. I use a 29 ga 1/2" insulin syringe, which I prefer over the harpoons for deep IM. Plus I would not want to use the larger harpoons daily. I was on the E3.5D protocol prior to daily injections but when I changed to daily it leveled out my blood markers so I like the daily and won't likely ever change from that protocol.

 

[Willyt]

I run about 10% body fat so the shallow IM works for me. My testosterone is very consistent with TT around 1050 ng/dl and FT around 32 pg/ml at trough. Both well over range. I use a 29 ga 1/2" insulin syringe, which I prefer over the harpoons for deep IM. Plus I would not want to use the larger harpoons daily. I was on the E3.5D protocol prior to daily injections but when I changed to daily it leveled out my blood markers so I like the daily and won't likely ever change from that protocol.

Nice for a change to see someone who feels dialed in. What is your daily dose of cypionate to reach those levels? Where do your other blood markers sit?

 

[ivkonst2017]

I run about 10% body fat so the shallow IM works for me. My testosterone is very consistent with TT around 1050 ng/dl and FT around 32 pg/ml at trough. Both well over range. I use a 29 ga 1/2" insulin syringe, which I prefer over the harpoons for deep IM. Plus I would not want to use the larger harpoons daily. I was on the E3.5D protocol prior to daily injections but when I changed to daily it leveled out my blood markers so I like the daily and won't likely ever change from that protocol.

At some point I may try to do shallow IM again eapecially when I drop more weight. But Im not sure whether its worthy. The 27g 3/4 inch needle I use is only slightly larger but I know it does the job well for me. And Im happy with my protocol, afraid to change it.

With the shallow IM daily how many muscles do you rotate to avoid scar tissue and build up of pain? Also have you tried EOD protocol?

 

[MarkM]

I am injecting 24 mg per day which is actually a little high for a daily dose. Many who would take that does per day would have much higher levels of T than I do. I adjusted my dose and continued to test for a long time before I settled on the 24 mg per day. My last blood work was in June. I will be doing new blood work in October. The ranges are from LabCorp. My blood work is actually more detailed than this but these are the items I am spread-sheeting.

Element	Range	Measure	6/7/21
WBC	3.4 - 10.8	x10E3/ul	6.0
RBC	4.14 - 5.80	X10E6/ul	5.42
Hemoglobin	13.0 - 17.7	g/dl	15.9
Hematocrit	37.5 - 51.0	%	48.5
Ttl Cholesterol	100- 199	mg/dl	141
LDL	0 - 99	mg/dl	89
HDL	> 39	mg/dl	36
Triglycerides	< 150	mg/dl	82
VLDL Cholesterol	5 - 40	mg/dl	20
Ferritin	30 - 400	ng/ml	148
Iron	38 - 169	ug/dl	92
Iron Saturation	15 - 55	%	31
TIBC	250 - 450	ug/dl	280
UIBC	111 - 343	ug/dl	202
Glucose	65 - 99	mg/dl	96.0
Hemo A1C	4.8 - 5.6	%	5.2
TSH	0.45 - 4.50	uiu/ml	0.390
T3	.79 - 1.49	ng/dl	1.1
Free T3	2.0 - 4.4	pg/ml	3.7
T4	4.5 - 12.0	ug/dl	6.8
Free T4	0.82 - 1.77	ng/dl	1.29
Reverse T3	9.2 - 24.1	ng/dl	12.2
TgAB Antibody	0.0 - 0.9	iu/ml	<1.0
TPOab Antibody	0 - 34	iu/ml	10
Vitamin D	30 - 100	ng/ml	69.0
Vitamin B12	> 231	pg/ml	962
Testosterone	264 - 916	ng/dl	1055
Free Test	7.2 - 24.0	pg/ml	31.6
% Free to Total	2.0 - 3.0	%	2.87%
Bioavailable T	250 - 600	ng/dl	613
% Bio of Total	30 - 60	%	58.1%
PSA	0.0 - 4.0	ng/ml	0.7
DHT	30 - 85	ng/dl	92
DHT % of Test	3.5 - 8.5	%	8.7%
Prolactin	4.0 - 15.2	ng/ml	9.6
Estradiol, Sens	8.0 - 35.0	pg/ml	30.1
Free Estradiol E2	0.2 - 1.5	pg/ml	1.2
% Free E2 to Total	1.7 - 5.4	%	3.98%
Estradiol (E2) % T	1.0 - 5.0	%	2.85%
T:E Ratio	20 - 50	Ratio	35.0
SHBG	19.3 - 76.4	nmol/l	32.7
DHEA-S	49 - 344	ug/dl	331.8
Pregnenolone	< 180	ng/dl	81
Progesterone	0.0 - 0.5	ng/ml	0.3
T Cyp Per Week	150 - 200	mg/ml	168 mg
Protocol		mg per day	24 mg daily
Peak/Trough		P/T	Trough

 

[MarkM]

At some point I may try to do shallow IM again eapecially when I drop more weight. But Im not sure whether its worthy. The 27g 3/4 inch needle I use is only slightly larger but I know it does the job well for me. And Im happy with my protocol, afraid to change it.

With the shallow IM daily how many muscles do you rotate to avoid scar tissue and build up of pain? Also have you tried EOD protocol?

I have not tried the EOD protocol. For me, I needed something more consistent where my days were not rotating. I have had a hectic/busy life with lots of travel, late nights, etc....it would have been a pain to try to remember the EOD way. I would have always been wondering if I took it the day before or not.

I am not too concerned about the 29 ga 1/2" needle creating too much scar tissue even with injecting daily. I haven't noticed any scar tissue but probably is some. I rotated between the deltoids, ventro-gluteals, and vastus lateralis'. Absolutely zero pain. I did get some pain occasionally in the vastus lateralis when I was injecting E3.5D and a much larger volume of testosterone but since injecting smaller amounts daily with smaller needle, no pain. That is 6 areas to rotate and each of those areas can be hit in different areas so you really have at least 12 areas to rotate with. That's a lot.

For sure you should stick with what you are happy with. That's what I did once I got dialed in until now. Some would think I am crazy for messing with a good thing. If going to SubQ doesn't work for me, I'll just go back to what I was doing. I have a long track record of it working. But, I've read there can be substantial benefits of SubQ so it's worth trying.

 

[ivkonst2017]

have not tried the EOD protocol. For me, I needed something more consistent where my days were not rotating. I have had a hectic/busy life

Im the same way and cannot even dare to remember that shit. So I rely on a repetative task in google calendar on my phone. When I try every third day it would be even more impossible to remember.

 

[Willyt]

I am injecting 24 mg per day which is actually a little high for a daily dose. Many who would take that does per day would have much higher levels of T than I do. I adjusted my dose and continued to test for a long time before I settled on the 24 mg per day. My last blood work was in June. I will be doing new blood work in October. The ranges are from LabCorp. My blood work is actually more detailed than this but these are the items I am spread-sheeting.

Element	Range	Measure	6/7/21
WBC	3.4 - 10.8	x10E3/ul	6.0
RBC	4.14 - 5.80	X10E6/ul	5.42
Hemoglobin	13.0 - 17.7	g/dl	15.9
Hematocrit	37.5 - 51.0	%	48.5
Ttl Cholesterol	100- 199	mg/dl	141
LDL	0 - 99	mg/dl	89
HDL	> 39	mg/dl	36
Triglycerides	< 150	mg/dl	82
VLDL Cholesterol	5 - 40	mg/dl	20
Ferritin	30 - 400	ng/ml	148
Iron	38 - 169	ug/dl	92
Iron Saturation	15 - 55	%	31
TIBC	250 - 450	ug/dl	280
UIBC	111 - 343	ug/dl	202
Glucose	65 - 99	mg/dl	96.0
Hemo A1C	4.8 - 5.6	%	5.2
TSH	0.45 - 4.50	uiu/ml	0.390
T3	.79 - 1.49	ng/dl	1.1
Free T3	2.0 - 4.4	pg/ml	3.7
T4	4.5 - 12.0	ug/dl	6.8
Free T4	0.82 - 1.77	ng/dl	1.29
Reverse T3	9.2 - 24.1	ng/dl	12.2
TgAB Antibody	0.0 - 0.9	iu/ml	<1.0
TPOab Antibody	0 - 34	iu/ml	10
Vitamin D	30 - 100	ng/ml	69.0
Vitamin B12	> 231	pg/ml	962
Testosterone	264 - 916	ng/dl	1055
Free Test	7.2 - 24.0	pg/ml	31.6
% Free to Total	2.0 - 3.0	%	2.87%
Bioavailable T	250 - 600	ng/dl	613
% Bio of Total	30 - 60	%	58.1%
PSA	0.0 - 4.0	ng/ml	0.7
DHT	30 - 85	ng/dl	92
DHT % of Test	3.5 - 8.5	%	8.7%
Prolactin	4.0 - 15.2	ng/ml	9.6
Estradiol, Sens	8.0 - 35.0	pg/ml	30.1
Free Estradiol E2	0.2 - 1.5	pg/ml	1.2
% Free E2 to Total	1.7 - 5.4	%	3.98%
Estradiol (E2) % T	1.0 - 5.0	%	2.85%
T:E Ratio	20 - 50	Ratio	35.0
SHBG	19.3 - 76.4	nmol/l	32.7
DHEA-S	49 - 344	ug/dl	331.8
Pregnenolone	< 180	ng/dl	81
Progesterone	0.0 - 0.5	ng/ml	0.3
T Cyp Per Week	150 - 200	mg/ml	168 mg
Protocol		mg per day	24 mg daily
Peak/Trough		P/T	Trough

Thanks for the details. Will be interesting to hear about your SubQ results.

Is that E2 without AI? No side effects from that higher dose? How is the libido?

 

[MarkM]

Yes, that is E2 without any AI. No side effects, great libido and great morning wood each day.