Stopping Testosterone Injections for Enclomiphene

[txmx]

For those recently or currently on Enclomiphene, can you give us an update on your protocols, labs, and subjective responses? Thanks.

 

[goolapsh]

For those recently or currently on Enclomiphene, can you give up an update on your protocols, labs, and subjective responses? Thanks.

I stopped taking it because it gave me insomnia. Also had low libido on it compared to test. Not a big fan of it although it did give me more energy/motivation. I didn’t do labs on it because I didn’t see the point as it’s not a long term solution for me. That being said I stopped the pills over a month ago and recently got bloodwork done and am close to my baseline T. Have been feeling a lot better since stopping but it took awhile.

 

[txmx]

I stopped taking it because it gave me insomnia. Also had low libido on it compared to test. Not a big fan of it although it did give me more energy/motivation. I didn’t do labs on it because I didn’t see the point as it’s not a long term solution for me. That being said I stopped the pills over a month ago and recently got bloodwork done and am close to my baseline T. Have been feeling a lot better since stopping but it took awhile.

What dose were you taking and how often?

 

[Cataceous]

For those recently or currently on Enclomiphene, can you give us an update on your protocols, labs, and subjective responses? ...

I'm continuing to use enclomiphene in an unusual protocol. I tried a period without it to see how necessary it is. I only made it a few weeks before I was compelled to resume using it, though now at 12.5 mg EOD instead of daily. My experience probably has limited relevance for those contemplating monotherapy, but it at least suggests that good results are possible with enclomiphene in the mix. The enclomiphene allows me to make some LH and FSH, giving the benefits of hCG without the estrogen excess. Endogenous testosterone production is minimal, and serum testosterone is supported by injections of testosterone enanthate and testosterone propionate, with daily peak levels currently in the 600-700 ng/dL range.

 

[txmx]

I'm continuing to use enclomiphene in an unusual protocol. I tried a period without it to see how necessary it is. I only made it a few weeks before I was compelled to resume using it, though now at 12.5 mg EOD instead of daily. My experience probably has limited relevance for those contemplating monotherapy, but it at least suggests that good results are possible with enclomiphene in the mix. The enclomiphene allows me to make some LH and FSH, giving the benefits of hCG without the estrogen excess. Endogenous testosterone production is minimal, and serum testosterone is supported by injections of testosterone enanthate and testosterone propionate, with daily peak levels currently in the 600-700 ng/dL range.

Cataceous, thanks for the reply. Would like your opinion. Given the half-life of Enclomiphene at 10.5 hours, f you were doing monotherapy, would you structure the dosing a couple of times a day (every 10.5-12 hours) to achieve a steady state after 4-5 doses? Or, as I have seen you mention, would you space the dosing out even as far as 3-3.5 days apart? At let's say 12.5mg per dose, this spacing would allow the Enclomiphene remaining in your system to hit almost zero between doses, rather than going for a steady state by dosing every 10.5 hours. Maybe the variation down towards zero more beneficial than steady state?

 

[Cataceous]

Cataceous, thanks for the reply. Would like your opinion. Given the half-life of Enclomiphene at 10.5 hours, f you were doing monotherapy, would you structure the dosing a couple of times a day (every 10.5-12 hours) to achieve a steady state after 4-5 doses? Or, as I have seen you mention, would you space the dosing out even as far as 3-3.5 days apart? At let's say 12.5mg per dose, this spacing would allow the Enclomiphene remaining in your system to hit almost zero between doses, rather than going for a steady state by dosing every 10.5 hours. Maybe the variation down towards zero more beneficial than steady state?

I've been wondering about this myself. There's more anecdotal evidence built up for Clomid—also supporting the notion that EOD enclomiphene can still be effective. Subjectively I'm finding the EOD dosing to be as good as or better than ED. But I have't checked LH and FSH on the revised protocol to see if they are as good. Even if not, perhaps there are some other benefits to clearing out the enclomiphene before restarting the cycle? One of the reservations I have about enclomiphene is that its effects on all the various estrogen receptors are not fully characterized. This at least leaves the door open for speculation that "variation down towards zero" could be doing something useful.

For monotherapy I would probably opt for EOD dosing, or daily if that wasn't effective. I haven't seen much information suggesting that less frequent dosing would be effective.

 

[txmx]

I've been wondering about this myself. There's more anecdotal evidence built up for Clomid—also supporting the notion that EOD enclomiphene can still be effective. Subjectively I'm finding the EOD dosing to be as good as or better than ED. But I have't checked LH and FSH on the revised protocol to see if they are as good. Even if not, perhaps there are some other benefit to clearing out the enclomiphene before restarting the cycle? One of the reservations I have about enclomiphene is that its effects on all the various estrogen receptors are not fully characterized. This at least leaves the door open for speculation that "variation down towards zero" could be doing something useful.

For monotherapy I would probably opt for EOD dosing, or daily if that wasn't effective. I haven't seen much information suggesting that less frequent dosing would be effective.

Thanks. When i was on clomiphene for several years I titrated down to 12.5mg E3D and found it to still be effective from a lab results perspective. However, this may have been due to the much longer half-life of the zuclomiphene isomer. It was never effective subjectively at any dose.

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks. When i was on clomiphene for several years I titrated down to 12.5mg E3D and found it to still be effective from a lab results perspective. However, this may have been due to the much longer half-life of the zuclomiphene isomer. It was never effective subjectively at any dose.

Probably not the zuclomiphene. It's a troublemaker unless you really need estrogenic effects for some reason. So you're saying you achieved decent TT/LH/FSH? I guess that shows how potent enclomiphene is. You were getting only around 7-8 mg with each dose.

 

[camygod]

I'm continuing to use enclomiphene in an unusual protocol. I tried a period without it to see how necessary it is. I only made it a few weeks before I was compelled to resume using it, though now at 12.5 mg EOD instead of daily. My experience probably has limited relevance for those contemplating monotherapy, but it at least suggests that good results are possible with enclomiphene in the mix. The enclomiphene allows me to make some LH and FSH, giving the benefits of hCG without the estrogen excess. Endogenous testosterone production is minimal, and serum testosterone is supported by injections of testosterone enanthate and testosterone propionate, with daily peak levels currently in the 600-700 ng/dL range.

do you think enclomiphene is a viable option to replace hcg to keep testicle from shrinking during trt ?

 

[Cataceous]

do you think enclomiphene is a viable option to replace hcg to keep testicle from shrinking during trt ?

It depends what you mean by "viable". The answer for most is "No." Enclomiphene does not prevent the negative feedback from testosterone at the hypothalamus. This blocks production of GnRH, which stops production of luteinizing hormone by the pituitary, which means no signal to the testicles to prevent atrophy. It's possible to bypass the hypothalamus by injecting GnRh—gonadorelin—but this requires multiple daily injections. Most would not consider this to be viable, but I'm an exception.

 

[camygod]

It depends what you mean by "viable". The answer for most is "No." Enclomiphene does not prevent the negative feedback from testosterone at the hypothalamus. This blocks production of GnRH, which stops production of luteinizing hormone by the pituitary, which means no signal to the testicles to prevent atrophy. It's possible to bypass the hypothalamus by injecting GnRh—gonadorelin—but this requires multiple daily injections. Most would not consider this to be viable, but I'm an exception.

wht benfits do you think it has then? at least for even you compared to hcg

 

[Cataceous]

wht benfits do you think it has then? at least for even you compared to hcg

Referring to the protocol as a whole: Better orgasm quality, increased ejaculate volume, larger testicular volume, improved libido, better cognition, and a lack of problems associated with elevated estradiol or prolactin.

 

[camygod]

Referring to the protocol as a whole: Better orgasm quality, increased ejaculate volume, larger testicular volume, improved libido, better cognition, and a lack of problems associated with elevated estradiol or prolactin.

so many of the things men look for when using hcg

 

[Cataceous]

so many of the things men look for when using hcg

Yes. HCG does help me in these areas, but not as much as GnRH. And hCG raises my estradiol by around 20 pg/mL, which leads to other issues.

 

[camygod]

Yes. HCG does help me in these areas, but not as much as GnRH. And hCG raises my estradiol by around 20 pg/mL, which leads to other issues.

so what are you feelings on just trt with tesosterone and Enclomiphene only minus the GnRH

 

[Cataceous]

so what are you feelings on just trt with tesosterone and Enclomiphene only minus the GnRH

This addition of enclomiphene is unlikely to do anything useful. There are a couple anecdotal reports of some HPTA activity with Clomid and TRT. But even if these are real it appears to be very uncommon. I would not bother with it.

 

[CKO]

I came off enclomiphene and started TRT + HCG. My labs looked amazing on enclomiphene, posted below. The problem is that I didn't feel any of the benefits I should with good lab numbers. If my memory is correct, Dr. Saya references on another thread that in enclomiphene still acts on the estrogen receptors, which is why you may not feel the benefits you're looking for. I may go back on enclomiphene down the road. But it would be a very low dose. I personally have only felt better using HCG, nothing else has done much for me, including TRT.

Labs 10/9:
Total T:. 987. (264-916)
Free T: 29.9 (8.7- 25.1)
Estradiol Sensitive: 32.5 (8-35)

TX:. Enclomiphene 12.5 x 3 WK. , Anastrozole .125 x 2 week.

 

[txmx]

I came off enclomiphene and started TRT + HCG. My labs looked amazing on enclomiphene, posted below. The problem is that I didn't feel any of the benefits I should with good lab numbers. If my memory is correct, Dr. Saya references on another thread that in enclomiphene still acts on the estrogen receptors, which is why you may not feel the benefits you're looking for. I may go back on enclomiphene down the road. But it would be a very low dose. I personally have only felt better using HCG, nothing else has done much for me, including TRT.

Labs 10/9:
Total T:. 987. (264-916)
Free T: 29.9 (8.7- 25.1)
Estradiol Sensitive: 32.5 (8-35)

TX:. Enclomiphene 12.5 x 3 WK. , Anastrozole .125 x 2 week.

Thanks, CKO. Those are nice labs. What was your Total T baseline before enclomiphene? How long were you on enclomiphene? Why the anastrozole along with enclomiphene? Did you ever try enclomiphene without anastrozole? If so, any different result? Most importantly, if you went back on enclomiphene, how would you change the dosing and why? Thanks again.

 

[CKO]

Labs 2/2020
Total T: 470. 280-1100
E2: 25 0-39.9
SHBG: 32. 14-95
Free T:. 10.2 Ng/dL. (calculated)
LH: 2.1. 1.5-9.3

Never went without ai, but I would suspect my E2 would be out of range without it. My preference if I switch back, would be to use HCG with 12.5mg 1-2x week of enclomiphene. This would be entirely up to my doctor. I don't prescribe my own medication.

 

[Seth]

Referring to the protocol as a whole: Better orgasm quality, increased ejaculate volume, larger testicular volume, improved libido, better cognition, and a lack of problems associated with elevated estradiol or prolactin.

To make sure I understand, you take enclomiphene and TRT and HCG?