Should father start TRT age 61

[at15]

7.5mg x 7 = 52.5 mg weekly
40mg x 2 = 80 mg weekly

So, even with way less T, my E2 was more than the double. It didn't make any sense to me back then, but that was it.

What's the half life of Sustanon?
What about aromatization? More or less than T enanthate?

anecdotally some people claim less aromatization but who knows.
4 ester blend...
12% Propionate (0.8 d)
24% Phenylpropionate (1.5 d)
24% Isocaproate (4.0 d)
40% Decanoate (7.5 d)

basically 36% fast acting/64% slow acting.

 

[Appassionato]

Unless you had several measurements confirming the estradiol results, I would suspect a lab error or other anomaly.

I haven't seen any firm agreement on the apparent half-life of Sustanon. Maybe one or two weeks based on this set of measurements:

[R]
Average estradiol production is probably going to be proportional to the average dose of testosterone, regardless of the esters involved. Peak and trough levels will vary, driven by serum testosterone levels, which in turn are driven by the absorption rate of the exogenous testosterone.

I was having back acne and terrible anxiety on that E2 number, and I don't get back acne on a normal T protocol. The only times I got back acne was with HCG and on a daily protocol.

With HCG E2 was>100.
With daily E2 was 62.

So that makes sense to me. DHT can't be the culprit, because it was lower on both daily injections and when I was on HCG, when compared to a standard 2x week protocol with only T enanthate.

Total Testosterone by itself either, because it was slightly lower on daily injections and way higher with HCG, when compared to a standard 2x week protocol with only T enanthate.

Given these facts, the only thing consistent that happened when having back acne, was quite elevated E2 at through.
That excludes a lab error.

Regarding Sustanon, if the half life isn't short, why people are injecting it daily, claiming you would have peaks and lows in that way?

 

[Appassionato]

anecdotally some people claim less aromatization but who knows.
4 ester blend...
12% Propionate (0.8 d)
24% Phenylpropionate (1.5 d)
24% Isocaproate (4.0 d)
40% Decanoate (7.5 d)

basically 36% fast acting/64% slow acting.

Thanks for the info.
So my question would still be: why injecting daily if it's a blend of esters? Would every other day change that much?

Just asking because I was thinking to give it a go, since E2 management has been pretty tricky for me and I have symptoms when it goes on the 30s.
On the other hand, I can't tolerate AIs as well. So that complicates the picture even more.

 

[slicktop]

so arguemtns i hear against ED dosing..
-its a hassle to do
- the positives i have read may not be true

Mostly its inconvenient im some peoples views, but nothing negative health wise.

Have to let him decide after he does some injections andtracks his symptoms for a month or so

You're on the right track, but it's inadvisable to change protocols that soon unless there's an abnormal complication. Eight weeks is the minimum, with 12 being much more advisable.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Total Testosterone by itself either, because it was slightly lower on daily injections and way higher with HCG, when compared to a standard 2x week protocol with only T enanthate.

Given these facts, the only thing consistent that happened when having back acne, was quite elevated E2 at through.
That excludes a lab error.
...

We're going to have to disagree on how your results should be interpreted. Lab error is still a possibility. When other variables are constant, estradiol must follow testosterone, from which it's made. It's fairly reasonable that the trough serum testosterone with twice-weekly injections would match that seen with daily injections at 2/3 of the average dose. Call this testosterone level T. With daily injections hormones are barely changing, so T is also the average level. With twice-weekly injections of 50% more testosterone, the average testosterone level is 1.5T. But 3.5 days is enough for a significant decline in levels, considering the 4.5-day half-life of testosterone enanthate. So very roughly, you're achieving a peak of 2T, which falls to T before the next injection.

 

[Appassionato]

We're going to have to disagree on how your results should be interpreted. Lab error is still a possibility. When other variables are constant, estradiol must follow testosterone, from which it's made. It's fairly reasonable that the trough serum testosterone with twice-weekly injections would match that seen with daily injections at 2/3 of the average dose. Call this testosterone level T. With daily injections hormones are barely changing, so T is also the average level. With twice-weekly injections of 50% more testosterone, the average testosterone level is 1.5T. But 3.5 days is enough for a significant decline in levels, considering the 4.5-day half-life of testosterone enanthate. So very roughly, you're achieving a peak of 2T, which falls to T before the next injection.

I've actually double checked that and I only have a direct Free T value on a daily protocol, which was 37, so higher than a bi-weekly protocol.
But Madman claims that value was unreliable, due to the way it has been calculated.
For the other lab tests I have a Total T value and a Free T value calculated through Tru T.

I'm one of the few I think who tested both peak and through values on a same protocol.
For instance, 40mg bi-weekly:

-Total T= 1023 ng/dL at peak and 747 ng/dL at through, 30 minutes before the injection
-E2= 44 pg/mL at peak and 28 pg/mL at through, but in this case I introduced TUDCA months after when I've tested the through values, so this is not 100% accurate.
To give you an idea E2 was 34 on 30mg bi-weekly without TUDCA, so higher despite 20 mg less T per week.

The T fluctuations from peak to through is not enough to justify any symptom.
Normal people get this fluctuations on a daily basis according to how they sleep and the stress level they are exposed. One hour less sleep can have a more meaningful result on a healthy individual according to data.

 

[DragonBits]

We're going to have to disagree on how your results should be interpreted. Lab error is still a possibility. When other variables are constant, estradiol must follow testosterone, from which it's made. It's fairly reasonable that the trough serum testosterone with twice-weekly injections would match that seen with daily injections at 2/3 of the average dose. Call this testosterone level T. With daily injections hormones are barely changing, so T is also the average level. With twice-weekly injections of 50% more testosterone, the average testosterone level is 1.5T. But 3.5 days is enough for a significant decline in levels, considering the 4.5-day half-life of testosterone enanthate. So very roughly, you're achieving a peak of 2T, which falls to T before the next injection.

I am not sure that is a statement that is actually useful even if it were 100% true.

As we can never keep ALL the other variables constant. And specifically what variables might increase or decrease estrogen conversion for the same level of total testosterone?

When I measure both total T and estrogen sensitive, I also calculate what percentage of estrogen was converted from total T.

My conversion is between 1.53% > 5.77% of total T that is converted to E2.

On the high end, I was using clomid which increased my total T but increased E2 a whole lot more. Boron seemed to increase both ft and E2. When I used both Nebido and testosterone cream, my E2 went to 4% conversion. But I didn't do that often enough and measure often enough to really see if that was consistent.

We know clomid blocks estrogen from being detected by the pituitary gland and thus increasing LH/FSH which increases total testosterone. BUT why should estrogen increase much more than total T did?

Since HCG mimics LH, then it might well change the conversion ratio of T to E2.

Many of us on these types of forums take many different supplements, do any of those affect E2 conversion?

Mostly my conversion percentage is around 2.4%. But it does vary for reasons I can't exactly quantify.

 

[Cataceous]

I've actually double checked that and I only have a direct Free T value on a daily protocol, which was 37, so higher than a bi-weekly protocol.
But Madman claims that value was unreliable, due to the way it has been calculated.
For the other lab tests I have a Total T value and a Free T value calculated through Tru T.

I'm one of the few I think who tested both peak and through values on a same protocol.
For instance, 40mg bi-weekly:

-Total T= 1023 ng/dL at peak and 747 ng/dL at through, 30 minutes before the injection
-E2= 44 pg/mL at peak and 28 pg/mL at through, but in this case I introduced TUDCA months after when I've tested the through values, so this is not 100% accurate.
To give you an idea E2 was 34 on 30mg bi-weekly without TUDCA, so higher despite 20 mg less T per week.

The T fluctuations from peak to through is not enough to justify any symptom.
Normal people get this fluctuations on a daily basis according to how they sleep and the stress level they are exposed. One hour less sleep can have a more meaningful result on a healthy individual according to data.

These values reinforce suspicions about that high estradiol level measured with daily injections. In the absence of hCG or AIs it's implausible that you'd experience much higher estradiol with lower testosterone.

...
As we can never keep ALL the other variables constant. And specifically what variables might increase or decrease estrogen conversion for the same level of total testosterone?
....

The point is there aren't many common things that are going to affect aromatization to this degree over a short period of time. And I've seen no evidence that changing the injection schedule from biw to qd is one of them.

 

[blinkyvx]

This is like way off track of original topic really

 

[at15]

Thanks for the info.
So my question would still be: why injecting daily if it's a blend of esters? Would every other day change that much?

Just asking because I was thinking to give it a go, since E2 management has been pretty tricky for me and I have symptoms when it goes on the 30s.
On the other hand, I can't tolerate AIs as well. So that complicates the picture even more.

I still think EOD is a high fluctuation in peak vs. trough with sustanon. at 48 hours post with propionate there is basically nothing left.
so it would be like having steady levels and getting a little prop booster EOD versus
having steady levels and getting a little prop booster everyday. it just make more sense to me in regards to natural levels. everyday we get a little boost in natural levels, thats our equivalent to the propionate everyday.

 

[Cataceous]

I still think EOD is a high fluctuation in peak vs. trough with sustanon. at 48 hours post with propionate there is basically nothing left.
so it would be like having steady levels and getting a little prop booster EOD versus
having steady levels and getting a little prop booster everyday. ....

I've been wondering if when you inject a mixture of esters like Sustanon you get somewhat different results than if the esters were injected separately. My thought is that the mixture could act more like a single ester that has a half-life that is some average of all the esters. The reasoning is that an injected depot must be absorbed via its surface, meaning shorter esters inside are protected—think of putting hard candy in water and watching it dissolve from the outside in.

There is a counterargument, which is that because the shorter esters on the surface of the depot are absorbed faster, their reduced concentration in the absorption layer draws more from inside the depot, thus somewhat negating the protection afforded by the longer esters.

 

[Appassionato]

I've been wondering if when you inject a mixture of esters like Sustanon you get somewhat different results than if the esters were injected separately. My thought is that the mixture could act more like a single ester that has a half-life that is some average of all the esters. The reasoning is that an injected depot must be absorbed via its surface, meaning shorter esters inside are protected—think of putting hard candy in water and watching it dissolve from the outside in.

There is a counterargument, which is that because the shorter esters on the surface of the depot are absorbed faster, their reduced concentration in the absorption layer draws more from the inside the depot, thus somewhat negating the protection afforded by the longer esters.

I was about to ask about it, but you replied already.

If propionate in the blend dictate the injection frequency, why not jus doing propionate daily, rather than Sustanon?

 

[Cataceous]

...
If propionate in the blend dictate the injection frequency, why not jus doing propionate daily, rather than Sustanon?

I found that for me, propionate alone was giving more daily variation than I wanted—more than would be seen in nature. On the other hand, the fraction of propionate in Sustanon is too low to give much variation with daily injections, even if the propionate absorbs as fast as when injected alone. I have been experimenting with various ratios of enanthate and propionate in daily injections. So far my best subjective results are with an average ratio of 5.5 mg propionate to 2.25 mg enanthate.

 

[Appassionato]

I found that for me, propionate alone was giving more daily variation than I wanted—more than would be seen in nature. On the other hand, the fraction of propionate in Sustanon is too low to give much variation with daily injections, even if the propionate absorbs as fast as when injected alone. I have been experimenting with various ratios of enanthate and propionate in daily injections. So far my best subjective results are with an average ratio of 5.5 mg propionate to 2.25 mg enanthate.

So you would say to start with a blend like Sustanon first, to see how it affects aromatization, rather than jumping on daily propionate?

Also 7.5 mg daily was too much for me, and it's really difficult to measure less than that in an insulin syringe, making it difficult for me to go daily.

 

[Cataceous]

So you would say to start with a blend like Sustanon first, to see how it affects aromatization, rather than jumping on daily propionate?
...

It's something to try, and introduces some daily variability. What I don't like about it is the lack of control over the variability. If we posit that daily variation in serum testosterone is another parameter we can optimize, then daily Sustanon provides only a straight line in the two dimensions we're exploring. The dimensions are average testosterone level and percent variation about the average. Sustanon lets us adjust the average testosterone level with dose changes, but the variation about the average is fixed.

Let's assume that we're trying to emulate the diurnal rhythm of young males. In this case the target variability is in the range of 20% to 40% above and below the average. My guess is that the variability of Sustanon is more like +/-10%. Fortunately if we know our testosterone dose-response relationship then we can estimate our variability from one measurement while using any ester or combination of esters.

...
Also 7.5 mg daily was too much for me, and it's really difficult to measure less than that in an insulin syringe, making it difficult for me to go daily.

I find that with 0.3 cc insulin syringes it's easy to measure doses in 0.005 cc increments. When I need to go below this then I must dilute the substance using the same carrier and preservative.

 

[Appassionato]

It's something to try, and introduces some daily variability. What I don't like about it is the lack of control over the variability. If we posit that daily variation in serum testosterone is another parameter we can optimize, then daily Sustanon provides only a straight line in the two dimensions we're exploring. The dimensions are average testosterone level and percent variation about the average. Sustanon lets us adjust the average testosterone level with dose changes, but the variation about the average is fixed.

Let's assume that we're trying to emulate the diurnal rhythm of young males. In this case the target variability is in the range of 20% to 40% above and below the average. My guess is that the variability of Sustanon is more like +/-10%. Fortunately if we know our testosterone dose-response relationship then we can estimate our variability from one measurement while using any ester or combination of esters.


I find that with 0.3 cc insulin syringes it's easy to measure doses in 0.005 cc increments. When I need to go below this then I must dilute the substance using the same carrier and preservative.

Thanks, that's valuable info.
I guess I will stay on my protocol for another 6 weeks and see if symptoms get resolved.
Otherwise I'll give Sustanon a try on byweekly or EOD protocol.

 

[blinkyvx]

can you guys make separate thread please, it snot even relevant

 

[Charliebizz]

can you guys make separate thread please, it snot even relevant

What more do you want from this thread. Every guy told you to start simple. If you don’t like the advice you can do what you want. Simple as that. Trt is not even close to an exact science. I’m making an assumption here but it seems like you’ve been on that ******** group that over simplifies trt. No one has this even remotely figured out even if they feel great because we are all so different.

Starting him at ed shots is just silly. What if the man does 1x a week and feels great. Nice simple trt. If you start daily and he feels good he’s not going to want to change that and will be doing fail for the rest of his life for possible no reason.

Think logically. If I said hey you can feel great with one shot a week or 7 what are you going to pick lol. Now that said 11 years of low t and no protocal works good for me so there is that also. He’s an older guy with age related decline most likely. He should do very well on a simple program. It’s guys like me who got low t in mid 20s and have other things going on that usually have to try all this funky shit.

 

[Appassionato]

I find that with 0.3 cc insulin syringes it's easy to measure doses in 0.005 cc increments. When I need to go below this then I must dilute the substance using the same carrier and preservative.

Which 0.3 cc insulin syringes were you using?
All the ones I saw come with a non-replaceable needle.

 

[Cataceous]

Which 0.3 cc insulin syringes were you using?
All the ones I saw come with a non-replaceable needle.

There are insulin syringes with replaceable needles? I use Easy Touch syringes, which definitely do not have replaceable needles.