Raising ferritin FAST (a how-to, not a question)
- Thread starter FDV70
- Start date
That is great news. The complication in your case might be though that depending on your body's rate of erythropoiesis, it might slowly 'steal' from ferritin as time passes. Using myself as an example, I lose about a point of ferritin every 2 weeks. That's an okay equilibrium for me. The key is making sure you don't accidentally raise your hemoglobin. We just try to leave hemoglobin pretty much untouched during this process.
I would say no. I would do only 4 or 5 days.
The trigger for hepcidin is 60mg, but you are using 50mg and I think that will probably still accomplish the goal. I have not had anyone using 50mg so let me know if it worked when you look at your bloods.
Let's just go with a hypothetical. Let's say you did this for (arbitrary) 14 days. You like the rest of us probably have high RBCs. So that hepcidin is staying high and filling cells with iron (from these recycled RBCs and it's stored as ferritin) and you end up with a crazy high ferritin of (guessing) 300. If you were a normal person not on TRT you would be happy.
The moment you stop the iron, things go back to normal. You are a Test user so the body will rob from that 300 -- and put it into serum. And you will end up with high hemoglobin again, too early. And you'll have to donate again, too early. So we don't want to put ferritin too high. I have no hard figures but from anecdotes I am seeing guys who are on TRT who end up donating seem to have a "glass ceiling" where ferritin that goes above 100 gets smacked back down. Some guys might be less. I am at 36 right now. I need to sneak mine up but I am going to target a ferritin of 50 soon. Then see how I feel there. It has been sooooo long since my ferritin has been up even at 36.
I have a friend who has to take iron every day or his ferritin falls FAST. I can;t even take 5mg per day or I donate too soon. So I am now dietary only after my 4 or 5 days. (I will probably try 6 days next.)
xqfq
Active Member
I've never had serious problems with hemoglobin on TRT (knock on wood). For someone on TRT with ferritin that tends to be low due to diet, what is your recommendation in terms of supplementation? Should I take one of these iron bisglycinate pills daily?
By the way, I did an initial loading dose of 72 mg, then I took 54mg each time. I only have 18mg pills so this seemed like the right option.
Ah I think I missed that, that you're not a big donator. That flew over my head, haha. I think 2mg (two) to 5mg (five) every day, not every other but every day, would sneak ferritin up nicely. It might seem like nothing but remember males have a good start with recycled iron from RBCs already. Evaluate after a month. Go real easy until you know how your body takes it.
These are the result of before and after. Did 4/5 days of 50mg 3x/daily:
Ferritin 11->41 (Range 38-380)
Hematocrit 43.4->48 (Range 38.5-50)
Hemoglobin 14.6->15.8(Range 13.2-17.1)
I guess I shall stop taking the iron.
That's a pretty good ferritin gain. Unfortunate that hemoglobin went up a full point. Hard to say if that's just your individual response, or if the iron was a tad too low (meaning using 50 instead of 60 ended up having some iron absorbed into the blood). I would say that your case tends to support that 50mg can be said to work. Thanks for reporting in!
maxadvance
Active Member
awesome thread
Hey I did blood donation again after HB reached 16.1 and HT reached 49.1.
There are two good things that I noticed this time:
- The ferritin doesn't crash post blood donation (or it may increase a lot prior)
- Within one month I don't take this protocol, the HB only increases 1 point from 48 to 49 in one month.
The number is below, it's exactly before and after except ferritin #.
HT 49.1->43.5 ; HB 16.1->14.8 ; Ferritin 41(oct)->43(post blood donation)
I've started day 2 of the 60ms Iron supplementation again as suggested, I will check by day three/four. I immediately took the recommended Iron after blood donation ( at 3pm and 9pm).
Thanks for the general recommendation, it seems to be working out. My main issue is the fatigue and unable to sleep if Ferritin is too low. What's amazing is this exact Kirkman Iron recommendation, has a drastic impact within just three hours. Impressive.
There are two good things that I noticed this time:
- The ferritin doesn't crash post blood donation (or it may increase a lot prior)
- Within one month I don't take this protocol, the HB only increases 1 point from 48 to 49 in one month.
The number is below, it's exactly before and after except ferritin #.
HT 49.1->43.5 ; HB 16.1->14.8 ; Ferritin 41(oct)->43(post blood donation)
I've started day 2 of the 60ms Iron supplementation again as suggested, I will check by day three/four. I immediately took the recommended Iron after blood donation ( at 3pm and 9pm).
Thanks for the general recommendation, it seems to be working out. My main issue is the fatigue and unable to sleep if Ferritin is too low. What's amazing is this exact Kirkman Iron recommendation, has a drastic impact within just three hours. Impressive.
Donation also triggers a rebound effect in most people. Guys who are anti-donation often talk about "the rebound effect" where HGB goes back up quicker after donating.
The thing is, the rebound effect is dependent on hepcidin! So my protocol also removes the post-donation rebound effect. You might have this going on for you in a very advantageous way.
Hepcidin level predicts hemoglobin concentration in individuals undergoing repeated phlebotomy - PMC
Dietary iron absorption is regulated by hepcidin, an iron regulatory protein produced by the liver. Hepcidin production is regulated by iron stores, erythropoiesis and inflammation, but its physiology when repeated blood loss occurs has not been ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Donation also triggers a rebound effect in most people. Guys who are anti-donation often talk about "the rebound effect" where HGB goes back up quicker after donating.
The thing is, the rebound effect is dependent on hepcidin! So my protocol also removes the post-donation rebound effect. You might have this going on for you in a very advantageous way.
Hepcidin level predicts hemoglobin concentration in individuals undergoing repeated phlebotomy - PMC
Dietary iron absorption is regulated by hepcidin, an iron regulatory protein produced by the liver. Hepcidin production is regulated by iron stores, erythropoiesis and inflammation, but its physiology when repeated blood loss occurs has not been ...
FDV70- Very interesting thread-
Have you seen any use this protocol for cases of chronic low ferritin which was not induced by donations- those just trying to boost ferritin while keeping Hematocrit and Hemoblobin in check?
Try it out, it works like a champ.
FDV is eventually the master in this subject and I keep learning from him, thing is for an extremely complicated matter like this, he can still explain it in plain english.
This is actually the very first time, after donating blood, I don't feel the side effect of blood donation, usually, I'm suffering of lethargy for few weeks and doc only gives advise of taking Ferrous supplementation daily. This Kirkman Iron B**nate is amazing recommendation.
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We are especially suited to keeping our ferritin in the TRT community.
If we were to talk outside of that, then it's a big question mark.
I had a guy with hemochromatosis try it. Since in hemochromatosis, you don't make or don't use hepcidin, it failed. (So I added warning text to my page).
If you have chronic low ferritin, it could be the very early stages of hemochromatosis. I've seen it in two people now -- they had a hard time raising ferritin (even without my protocol, like generally, their ferritin didn't go up ever) and I told them to get genetic tests. Both of them showed as carriers for HFE mutations.
So there are situations where someone might have low ferritin and high HGB not on TRT where I would urge caution.
One situation I can think of not having to do with TRT is a chronic hypoxic condition driving RBCs, like apnea, or a B12 injection abuser, or a rare variant of Polycythemia Vera that is red-cell only (it actually does happen). In those cases, my protocol should work, but I haven't heard back from anyone with those situations yet.
The key to keeping the ferritin level in place is having a hemoglobin that's solid -- that's why an anemic woman with an HGB of, say, 12, will see an increase in ferritin fall right back.
We are especially suited to keeping our ferritin in the TRT community.
If we were to talk outside of that, then it's a big question mark.
I had a guy with hemochromatosis try it. Since in hemochromatosis, you don't make or don't use hepcidin, it failed. (So I added warning text to my page).
If you have chronic low ferritin, it could be the very early stages of hemochromatosis. I've seen it in two people now -- they had a hard time raising ferritin (even without my protocol, like generally, their ferritin didn't go up ever) and I told them to get genetic tests. Both of them showed as carriers for HFE mutations.
So there are situations where someone might have low ferritin and high HGB not on TRT where I would urge caution.
One situation I can think of not having to do with TRT is a chronic hypoxic condition driving RBCs, like apnea, or a B12 injection abuser, or a rare variant of Polycythemia Vera that is red-cell only (it actually does happen). In those cases, my protocol should work, but I haven't heard back from anyone with those situations yet.
so when folks is telling about they having apnea like you mentioned above, do you mean treated apnea or untreated apnea ? I had apnea so I sleep with CPAP all the time. Since I use CPAP, is my case the one that still have unnecessary increased of HTC or no longer since I've used the cpap ?
I meant untreated. Your CPAP should resolve your high RBC (and eventually, high HCT) levels. If not, then your CPAP's pressure isn't high enough. You can ask your pulmonologist to send you a finger sensor to wear in your sleep to see if your O2 levels are staying in a healthy range, or if they are dropping too low, and he can walk you through increasing the pressure of your unit.
In your case, use of a CPAP should not be the thing pushing up HCT. I use a CPAP too, for what its worth, and I used a finger monitor to make sure my CPAP is set appropriately.
I know my page says to wait until the next day but I now think that you should start after donating (I gotta change that wording). So if you donate at 8am, start the protocol at 9am or 10am. If you donate at, say, 1pm, start the protocol at 3pm or 4pm. If you donate at 3pm, start the protocol at 9pm or 10pm.
I don't want guys to worry too much. If you finished donating at 9:15am or something, go ahead and start the protocol at 10am. It's important to start to raise hepcidin right away.
I just did my first 5 day... the freaking gut issue of black stool was unbearable, no wonder no one has been brave enough to go 6 days yet. But I really needed to up my ferritin so I tolerated it.
I don't want guys to worry too much. If you finished donating at 9:15am or something, go ahead and start the protocol at 10am. It's important to start to raise hepcidin right away.
I just did my first 5 day... the freaking gut issue of black stool was unbearable, no wonder no one has been brave enough to go 6 days yet. But I really needed to up my ferritin so I tolerated it.
Have u ever looked into the work of Morley Robbins? Mainly in regards to his work on iron
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I just found an interesting article about ferritin fluctuations during the day
How Ferritin Fluctuates Through The Day & Why It Matters
How Ferritin Fluctuates Through The Day & Why It Matters
My opinion is that Robbins and his Root Cause Protocol is 1,000% completely and totally wrong. Ferritin is good and beneficial. A zero level of ferritin will make you feel like garbage. Serum ferritin is overflow from tissue, yes, but calling it a lasting sign of tissue pathology is absurd. There is zero scientific basis for his claims. The over-focus on copper being the problem behind iron just annoys the hell out of me too. The links on my page all go to current scientific findings. He just has one study his followers point to on cellular overflow and have no other basis for his claims. His misunderstanding of hepcidin as only being raised by inflammation is literal insanity. The iron administration pathway (BMP/SMAD) is separate from the inflammation pathway (IL-6). You can change a light bulb using a step ladder or standing on a milk crate but you wouldn't say step ladders are the same as milk crates. He's like the one guy on a street corner claiming the exact opposite of what we know to be reality.
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