Question, backfilling the pathways?

[DragonBits]

What hormones are considered to be in the pathway? I see flow charts, but in the end there have to result in actual hormones.

I know these hormones. Are there any I am missing that are important and part of the pathway? Are we assuming there are mystery hormones that are part of the pathway we don't know about? Are all of these part of backfilling the pathway?

Testosterone Total
Testosterone Free
Estrogens, Total
Estradiol
DHEA-S
Progesterone
Pregnenolone
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)
Prolactin
Cortisol

There is a lot of talk about backfiling the pathway, less about what hormones are expected to be increased.

If I take a blood test and these hormones are all in a healthy range, do I need to backfill?

Where I search for backfilling pathways, I don't very often see any hormones mentioned. which is why I am asking.

 

[lowe2sucks]

i know dr crisler and somebody else said even if your dhea is ok you would benefit from taking it

 

[DragonBits]

i know dr crisler and somebody else said even if your dhea is ok you would benefit from taking it

To me, a benefit would have to show up as something measurable, if not it's more likely a placebo effect. The only thing I have seen from taking DHEA is a higher DHEA level.

Both when I was 35 and now when I was 66, all taking DHEA did was increase my DHEA level. My PSA level also went up, but hard to tell if that was from DHEA as I am also on TRT and DHT increased, TT and so did E2.

As far as DHEA, it didn't seem to increase either E2 or TT when I was not on TRT. Didn't help or hurt sleep. 25 mg DHEA daily increased my DHEA from 95 > 450.

A whole lot of doctors say a whole lot of things, the proof is in the results.

 

[Leesto]

i know dr crisler and somebody else said even if your dhea is ok you would benefit from taking it

I had that experience. My DHEA levels on my labs were flagged as high. Yet my Dr. suggested I take 25 mg per day. Within 2 days nocturnal erections and morning wood both turned on after being absent for at least two decades. Other positive changes happened as well. On the next labs, DHEA measured about the same. go figure. It doesn't make sense from a purely lab-driven assessment, but the change was dramatic and real.

 

[Vince Carter]

Backfilling in TRT circles typically refers to Pregnenolone and DHEA almost exclusively those two only. Both are a lab driven assessment by that I mean treating numbers on a piece of paper vs do you really need to. Should be approached carefully with low doses and tolerance judged and never as a basic inclusion in a guys routine.

 

[DragonBits]

I had that experience. My DHEA levels on my labs were flagged as high. Yet my Dr. suggested I take 25 mg per day. Within 2 days nocturnal erections and morning wood both turned on after being absent for at least two decades. Other positive changes happened as well. On the next labs, DHEA measured about the same. go figure. It doesn't make sense from a purely lab-driven assessment, but the change was dramatic and real.

Congrats, I am sure it was thrilling, have you kept it up?

But I had a similar experience after ~8 months of TRT starting in 2009, at that time I only took testosterone, nothing else.

I think it would be more evident if you stopped taking DHEA and your morning wood went away. But it's probably harmless, so no reason to stop outside of curiosity.

I am surprised your levels didn't increase, mine tend to increase as soon as I supplement DHEA.

I stopped HCG, DHEA and Preg a month ago, this AM I had morning wood. Honestly, I don't think it was because I stopped, but if I were inclined I could claim that. I started a few other supplements like Turmeric, metformin on 10/17, ultra prostate formula a couple of days ago. I doubt this had anything to do with morning wood, but if I had to pick one, I would pick metformin as I have had a historic lowering of my blood glucose levels to a level I haven't seen since I started keeping tract 26 years ago.

However, like I said, back in 2010 I had a tremendous increase after ~8 months in libido, morning wood, wood off an on all day long, when i first started testosterone and my BG was about the same as it was 2 months ago and I wasn't taking anything like DHEA, HCG or metformin. Much bigger increase than anything now.

Metformin does really help with losing weight, controlling appetite and certainly it lowers my blood glucose, along with diet / exercise of course.

I am sure HCG helps with preventing testicular atrophy and fertility, for guys still producing testosterone and on TRT it likely evens out the peaks and troughs, beyond that I am not sure of the benefits.

I have always been willing to try things, but also remain a skeptic about benefits that aren't obvious in some way. Like taking CQ10, I can measure blood levels and if I take it before sleep it keeps me awake, so it does something. Now that I am on Metformin it's even more important to supplement cQ10. I take ginseng daily, but when it runs out I won't buy more, I haven't seen any benefit.

I was just curious on what hormones are backfilled in the pathway, so far Vince says Pregnenolone and DHEA.

 

[Sean Mosher]

Those are the only 2 I have ever heard referenced when talking about back-filling the pathways (DHEA and Pregnenolone).
I do get benefits from using both personally.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I explain it here (turn up volume)

 

[Vince Carter]

If HCG did act to mimic LH and would spur that downstream hormonal cascade/conversion then no one would need to take DHEA/Preg/et al.., Obviously either HCG does not (fully) mimic the lost LH there, or, there's an enzyme(?) problem that otherwise isn't being addressed.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

If HCG did act to mimic LH and would spur that downstream hormonal cascade/conversion then no one would need to take DHEA/Preg/et al.., Obviously either HCG does not (fully) mimic the lost LH there, or, there's an enzyme(?) problem that otherwise isn't being addressed.

Or the HCG dose people are using is too low or too infrequent.

 

[HealthMan]

When I introduced HCG to my TRT protocol my DHEA-S skyrocketed. I was using 50-100mg daily to achieve ~ 400 before HCG and now with HCG i only take 10mg to achieve approximately same levels. So the theory in my case makes total sense

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Or the HCG dose people are using is too low or too infrequent.

Everyone is unique and I believe there is a role, however limited it may be, for HCG from an upstream perspective. However, I’ve seen guys with a strong case of primary hypogonadism and with LH levels >40 (the biological equivalent of a very high HCG dosage) still have low DHEA/pregnenolone levels simply due to advancing age. There’s much more to it than just LH/HCG unfortunately.

 

[Vince Carter]

Or the HCG dose people are using is too low or too infrequent.

I went as high as 500iu 3 times per week and never felt good, as little as 100iu daily, and everything in between and really only ever felt like water to be honest.

 

[Vince Carter]

Everyone is unique and I believe there is a role, however limited it may be, for HCG from an upstream perspective. However, I’ve seen guys with a strong case of primary hypogonadism and with LH levels >40 (the biological equivalent of a very high HCG dosage) still have low DHEA/pregnenolone levels simply due to advancing age. There’s much more to it than just LH/HCG unfortunately.

Ive contemplated if there's a primary or secondary Hypo correlation to those that feel good on HCG and those that don't. Outside of any placebo affect either direction.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

We are finding out more about the role of proteins like StAR and how they rule how much conversion happens from cholesterol and other hormones.
Sex hormone synthesis, regulation, and function

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I went as high as 500iu 3 times per week and never felt good, as little as 100iu daily, and everything in between and really only ever felt like water to be honest.

It would be interesting if you knew this value while on HCG:

17 - OH Progesterone : HCG + TRT Efficacy Predictor

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Some people may have mutations in the StAR protein that may impede conversions as shown in the figure I just posted.

Clinical, Genetic, and Functional Characterization of Four Patients Carrying Partial Loss-of-Function Mutations in the Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory Protein (StAR)

 

[giants23]

I explain it here (turn up volume)

Thanks to you, Vince, Healthman, Dr. Saya and all the rest for such good guidance...I have been on here before...so almost 5yrs ago I got married at 38yrs old...I had been on T therapy for a little over 10yrs...around 200mg every 2-3 weeks...All blood tests, health, libido were perfect. Never knew anything about HCG, Clomid, Arimidex etc...No doctor ever told me T therapy shuts down my own sperm until I met Dr. Saya. Ex's had there tubes tied before meeting me so never knew sperm was low ...I got married just under 5yrs ago..Lovely wife...I got her pregnant WHILE I was on T therapy but she lost it 6 weeks later. She had to have a myomectomy because of a fibroid which was successfully removed and she checks out perfectly... Back then I checked my sperm and it was 0... I got off the t-shot completely in 2014...after 3 months started clomid and HCG after reading on this forum...kept coming back low sperm and motility 4% ....at first 2500 iu per shot I think twice per week( expensive) with clomid...nothing...I hated how I felt no libido..high 200's on T level where before on old protocall was in 700's on Tshot alone...Tshot was so much better. I tried tshot and hcg with clomid and immediately that month my motility and sperm shot to 0..We want kids bad...she just turned 34...we both are our parents last kids to carry on our name...I have gotten 2 women pregnant while on Tshot over the yrs and both were there first and both miscarried..1st one before I met my wife and 2nd one about 7yrs ago...I went two yrs trying HCG and Clomid with a new fertility doctor then saying every HCG shot should be 5000IU...T level went into mid 400's and finally libido was back but nowhere near when i was tshot alone...still low sperm and no improvement on motility...Then fertility clinic said go 6 months straight on nothing...felt horrible with low everything..Then Dr. Saya suggested Clomid alone...that immediately shot my sperm up to 27-32% motility...progress! Seems to have plateaued from there...For me any bit of any injection of Tshot with or without clomid/HCG would sink my Sperm everytime and not maintain it...I wonder if it took so long for my body to come back rather than that first three to six months that everyone says? Another fertility clinic said try anastrozole 1 pill everyday despite me saying I saw on this forum NOBODY takes that much..He insisted it would bring sperm back. First week my wood got rock hard and was a little more libido...By the 2nd week I felt horribly tired...My Estrogen was 32 n after a few weeks of this it shot down to 6. I completely stopped anastrozole...I havent been working out like I did before and wasnt on Tshot with Anastrozole so wasnt sure if I need to take it at all like 1/4 a pill a week or is that only when ur on tshot??
I then found this European formula called Fertilsan 3 months ago. I took 3 pills everyday for 3 months and instantly Im at 76% motility and double the sperm! Only fertility treatment that worked...all I ever read on here is clomid would shoot people's T level up to 700 or 800 but it never did me. Or HCG brings sperm back but it also didn't help me 2 years ago...do you think now if I add HCG into the mix with the clomid that I am still on for 3 years would boost me even more? I am worried being on clomid that long and having to go through all of this low libido crap to try and have a kid without doing in-vitro...they say were a perfect candidate based off these tests...I'm about to give up and do invitro but I just had this triple the success on motility... I want to get back on my t-shot... The fertility clinic froze my sperm but I wanted to still try with my wife with this new given success... While on clomid I did one pill every other day and then I went to 50 mg per day and noticed my testosterone level only went up in the high threes so even doubling the dose didn't make much difference. Being on it this long after you take the 5-day break I just didn't know if that was good.... I don't know the next protocol whether to try anastrozole with 1/4 a pill a week with clomid or introduce HCG with clomid again and see if that helps my body now when it didn't earlier or if my body just needed time to catch back up? What other remedy should I try? Go another 3 months on this fertilsan? So frustrating

 

[giants23]

Also my doc has had me on Fenofibrate minimum dosage to lower Triglycerides for the last yr...CAN that interfere with all of the other hormones that Nelson had in his video link above?

 

[HealthMan]

Also my doc has had me on Fenofibrate minimum dosage to lower Triglycerides for the last yr...CAN that interfere with all of the other hormones that Nelson had in his video link above?

You were not able to make your wife pregnant while on clomid only? What was your sperm count and parameters? What were your LH and FSH levels while on clomid only?