Question about dosing.

I’ve been all over the place. 200mg, 150, 160,180.

I’ve noticed the norm on this forum is to not mess with your dose. I fully Agree. But my biggest issue is my clinic.

They have me (and swear by it) stop pinning 7 days before labs. I’ve done it 3 days before as well to see my peak.

Trough after 7 days was 557 on 160 mg

Peak was 1140

I’m 41, 5’11”, 270 lbs (good amount of muscle and some fat of course) , train Jiu Jitsu, do hiit kettlebell workouts.

Bottom line is i want To figure out if my dose is too high because i dont Trust that they base it off my trough level. Aka lowest effective dose which I’ve never been able to test because I fell into the clinic cookie cutter trap at 200mg.

Wouldn’t it be best to base my dose off of what the peak is? I dont Want to walk around with 1400 test and have future health issues. I just want to feel good and have quality life to exercise etc.

Any advice is welcomed and appreciated.
 
Wouldn’t it be best to base my dose off of what the peak is?
The peak is short-lived, levels drop rapidly after that! If your trough level is too low and peak is too high, it will be impossible for some to truly feel optimized. For these men twice weekly is prefered to the yoyo hormone levels you get on a weekly protocol, where levels peak high and low at the end of the injection cycle.

A twice weekly protocol would typically see higher trough levels and less of a high peak level and you would see more consistent hormone levels throughout the entire week versus highs in the first half and lows at the end of the week.

Some men actually do better on this large fluctuating hormone levels.
I dont Want to walk around with 1400 test and have future health issues.
I don't know where you get this ideal higher testosterone above the normal ranges is going to "cause" health problems.

You're also only looking at the TT level, not the FT level, which is where the rubber meets the road!

TT by itself doesn't tell you much about your hormone status.

Bipolar androgen therapy can cure and treat some cases of prostate cancer.

This study was using doses well above what you're taking.

At first blush, the concept of using high doses of the male hormone testosterone as a treatment for men with advanced prostate cancer seems crazy. However, over the past decade, our team at Johns Hopkins has performed a series of clinical studies testing BAT in asymptomatic men with castration‐resistant prostate cancer. These studies showed that BAT was safe, could block prostate cancer growth and progression, and could improve quality of life (QOL) in some men.
 
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Out of all the doses you tried, which one resulted in you feeling your best? That’s a good starting point to consider when deciding on your best protocol. If you feel great there and don’t have major negative side effects then why not just stay there instead of bouncing around, regardless of what your tests say?

You are tested at trough for a few reasons…as systemlord said, your levels will decline somewhat rapidly(50% in one week). So if you base your aim on you trough then you will live practically your entire life below that level. Also, for the purpose of practicing trt, if you test at peak then on paper it could look like you’re having your patients all run around with t levels close to 3,000 (just an example for this scenario). Whereas if you keep all dosing the same and simply change to testing at trough, suddenly almost all your patients are within the normal range. But if you test at trough and they’re in the normal range then you’ve put them right back in the boat of having lowish levels most of the time.


As mentioned above, if you’re concerned about having your peaks too high then a good consideration would be to move to pinning 2-3 times per week. This will lower your peak and raise your trough. Here’s a good tool to show the differences in peaks and troughs of different doses and frequencies.



And since you said you started with 200, here’s the difference between peak and trough when applying 200 mg once/week vs 100 mg twice/week.




1742120603157.webp


1742120571525.webp
 
...
Bottom line is i want To figure out if my dose is too high because i dont Trust that they base it off my trough level. Aka lowest effective dose which I’ve never been able to test because I fell into the clinic cookie cutter trap at 200mg.

Wouldn’t it be best to base my dose off of what the peak is? I dont Want to walk around with 1400 test and have future health issues. I just want to feel good and have quality life to exercise etc.
...
If your goal is primarily to be healthy then be aware that the maximum testosterone production in healthy young men is equivalent to 90-100 mg testosterone cypionate per week, and 60-70 mg is typical. By this standard you are vastly overdosed. The long-term consequences of this are uncertain. We do know there is a wide variety of responses to excessive testosterone, with some men seemingly getting away with it, while others experience problems sooner or later. The conservative approach therefore is to gradually reduce your testosterone cypionate to 100 mg/week or less in divided doses. Unfortunately the transition frequently brings side effects, which can persist for weeks to a few months. But men who persist are usually glad they did, as revealed in my collection of anecdotes—where men find that less testosterone is better.
 
The peak is short-lived, levels drop rapidly after that! If your trough level is too low and peak is too high, it will be impossible for some to truly feel optimized. For these men twice weekly is prefered to the yoyo hormone levels you get on a weekly protocol, where levels peak high and low at the end of the injection cycle.

A twice weekly protocol would typically see higher trough levels and less of a high peak level and you would see more consistent hormone levels throughout the entire week versus highs in the first half and lows at the end of the week.

Some men actually do better on this large fluctuating hormone levels.

I don't know where you get this ideal higher testosterone above the normal ranges is going to "cause" health problems.

You're also only looking at the TT level, not the FT level, which is where the rubber meets the road!

TT by itself doesn't tell you much about your hormone status.

Bipolar androgen therapy can cure and treat some cases of prostate cancer.

This study was using doses well above what you're taking.
Man incredible information. Yea it’s been a nightmare trying to find the right dosage. Morning wood has been good on most of these doses so i guess it’s a good indicator it’s doing its job. I’ve always wanted to try “higher” dosages but feel like maybe it won’t do anything.
 
If your goal is primarily to be healthy then be aware that the maximum testosterone production in healthy young men is equivalent to 90-100 mg testosterone cypionate per week, and 60-70 mg is typical. By this standard you are vastly overdosed. The long-term consequences of this are uncertain. We do know there is a wide variety of responses to excessive testosterone, with some men seemingly getting away with it, while others experience problems sooner or later. The conservative approach therefore is to gradually reduce your testosterone cypionate to 100 mg/week or less in divided doses. Unfortunately the transition frequently brings side effects, which can persist for weeks to a few months. But men who persist are usually glad they did, as revealed in my collection of anecdotes—where men find that less testosterone is better.
Yea that’s what I’m afraid of. I’m currently on 180 and want to get to 100 and afraid of side effects. If it’s just feeling like shit etc i can Handle that. But anxiety etc? No thank you
 
Out of all the doses you tried, which one resulted in you feeling your best? That’s a good starting point to consider when deciding on your best protocol. If you feel great there and don’t have major negative side effects then why not just stay there instead of bouncing around, regardless of what your tests say?

You are tested at trough for a few reasons…as systemlord said, your levels will decline somewhat rapidly(50% in one week). So if you base your aim on you trough then you will live practically your entire life below that level. Also, for the purpose of practicing trt, if you test at peak then on paper it could look like you’re having your patients all run around with t levels close to 3,000 (just an example for this scenario). Whereas if you keep all dosing the same and simply change to testing at trough, suddenly almost all your patients are within the normal range. But if you test at trough and they’re in the normal range then you’ve put them right back in the boat of having lowish levels most of the time.


As mentioned above, if you’re concerned about having your peaks too high then a good consideration would be to move to pinning 2-3 times per week. This will lower your peak and raise your trough. Here’s a good tool to show the differences in peaks and troughs of different doses and frequencies.



And since you said you started with 200, here’s the difference between peak and trough when applying 200 mg once/week vs 100 mg twice/week.




View attachment 50887

View attachment 50886
Please forgive me. I am an absolute retard with this plotter as I’ve tried it before and cannot understand any of it lol.
 
Out of all the doses you tried, which one resulted in you feeling your best? That’s a good starting point to consider when deciding on your best protocol. If you feel great there and don’t have major negative side effects then why not just stay there instead of bouncing around, regardless of what your tests say?

You are tested at trough for a few reasons…as systemlord said, your levels will decline somewhat rapidly(50% in one week). So if you base your aim on you trough then you will live practically your entire life below that level. Also, for the purpose of practicing trt, if you test at peak then on paper it could look like you’re having your patients all run around with t levels close to 3,000 (just an example for this scenario). Whereas if you keep all dosing the same and simply change to testing at trough, suddenly almost all your patients are within the normal range. But if you test at trough and they’re in the normal range then you’ve put them right back in the boat of having lowish levels most of the time.


As mentioned above, if you’re concerned about having your peaks too high then a good consideration would be to move to pinning 2-3 times per week. This will lower your peak and raise your trough. Here’s a good tool to show the differences in peaks and troughs of different doses and frequencies.



And since you said you started with 200, here’s the difference between peak and trough when applying 200 mg once/week vs 100 mg twice/week.




View attachment 50887

View attachment 50886
Ps i already pin .45 mon and Thursday. If i broke That into 3 doses (.3 3x wk) shouldn’t the dose be lower? Or keep it the same …
 
Yea that’s what I’m afraid of. I’m currently on 180 and want to get to 100 and afraid of side effects. If it’s just feeling like shit etc i can Handle that. But anxiety etc? No thank you
The slower the transition, the less the likelihood of side effects. If you limit the reduction to a few milligrams per week then you may not even notice it. But then it will take a few months to complete.

With respect to anxiety, have you ever tested your serum progesterone? Frequently it is low under TRT, which would give you an excuse to supplement with some. It can be an effective anxiolytic, and also serves to balance against estradiol and DHT.
 
The slower the transition, the less the likelihood of side effects. If you limit the reduction to a few milligrams per week then you may not even notice it. But then it will take a few months to complete.

With respect to anxiety, have you ever tested your serum progesterone? Frequently it is low under TRT, which would give you an excuse to supplement with some. It can be an effective anxiolytic, and also serves to balance against estradiol and DHT.
As I’m sure you’ve seen and heard by many , I just want to use this long term safely. I have friends that stay on 200-250mg because they don’t want to lose “gains”. I want health over gains. So I think maybe I’ll slowly lower my dose to about 140 and revisit. I’ve lowered from 180 to 150 and didn’t notice much. Maybe I’m lucky.

And No sir i dont Even know what progesterone is. I’m here to learn and not annoy you guys with the same redundant questions.
 
I’ve been all over the place. 200mg, 150, 160,180.

I’ve noticed the norm on this forum is to not mess with your dose. I fully Agree. But my biggest issue is my clinic.

They have me (and swear by it) stop pinning 7 days before labs. I’ve done it 3 days before as well to see my peak.

Trough after 7 days was 557 on 160 mg

Peak was 1140

I’m 41, 5’11”, 270 lbs (good amount of muscle and some fat of course) , train Jiu Jitsu, do hiit kettlebell workouts.

Bottom line is i want To figure out if my dose is too high because i dont Trust that they base it off my trough level. Aka lowest effective dose which I’ve never been able to test because I fell into the clinic cookie cutter trap at 200mg.

Wouldn’t it be best to base my dose off of what the peak is? I dont Want to walk around with 1400 test and have future health issues. I just want to feel good and have quality life to exercise etc.

Any advice is welcomed and appreciated.


I’ve been all over the place. 200mg, 150, 160,180.

I’ve noticed the norm on this forum is to not mess with your dose. I fully Agree. But my biggest issue is my clinic.

They have me (and swear by it) stop pinning 7 days before labs. I’ve done it 3 days before as well to see my peak.

Trough after 7 days was 557 on 160 mg

Peak was 1140

I’m 41, 5’11”, 270 lbs (good amount of muscle and some fat of course) , train Jiu Jitsu, do hiit kettlebell workouts.

Bottom line is i want To figure out if my dose is too high because i dont Trust that they base it off my trough level. Aka lowest effective dose which I’ve never been able to test because I fell into the clinic cookie cutter trap at 200mg.



This is a messy situation here!

Unfortunately you got caught up being treated by one of those clueless dime a dozen run of the mill T-clinics dishing out those high dosed 200 mg T/week cookie cutter protocols which have all those poor chaps jacked up on T from the get-go!

Shocking that they never threw an AI in there to boot!

Overmedicating everyone from the get-go!

Many may feel like superman off the hop only to be let down months later!

F**king shameful!

Keep in mind that although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of T responsible for the positive effects.

Depending on the weekly dose of T/injection frequency a high/absurdly high peak would be expected.

When injecting once weekly (every 7 days) there will be a big difference between in the peak--->trough (40-50%) from day 1--->7 let alone blood levels will not be as stable throughout the week.

@Systemlord is out to lunch when he stated there will be a rapid decline in T levels.

Sure as hell not when using medium-acting esters (TC/TE)!

Look up the PKs TC/TE vs TP let alone oral TU!

On a once weekly injection protocol peak T levels will start rising within the first 2 hours due to a burst release and peak T level will be achieved within 24 hrs post-injection/even as early as 8-12 hrs when using the medium-acting esters (TC/TE), T levels will be very high the first 2-3 days and then gradually decline over the following days reaching true trough (lowest point) before your next injection on day 7.

The main downfall when injecting once weekly is in most cases the peak will very high/sky-high (depending on the dose used) only to be followed by much lower levels come true trough (7 days post-injection) and even then some men are still hitting a high/very high trough (depending on the weekly dose used).

This big difference between peak--->trough can result in a roller coaster type effect which can have a negative effect on energy, mood, libido and erectile function.

Some men may struggle with sides from the big weekly swing in T levels.

The easy fix here would be splitting up your weekly dose and injecting more frequently which will clip the peak--->trough and result in more stable blood levels throughout the week.

Top it off that you can get away with minimizing your peak while at the same time still hitting a healthy/high trough.

The standard starting dose for TTh is 100 mg T/week or better yet 50mg T every 3.5 days.

The goal here is to start low and go slow on a T-only protocol as we want to see where said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) has your trough TT and more importantly FT, estradiol let alone critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Blood work will be done once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) when using TC/TE due to the PKs and you want to test at the true trough (lowest point) before your next injection.

The goal here is to achieve a healthy trough FT level.

Dose of T should never be increased at the 4-6 week mark once labs are done unless your trough FT is too low (highly unlikely) in most cases.

There will always be time to increase the dose of T or add in hCG if need be.

Many make the mistake of tweaking a protocol 4-6 weeks in because they do not feel well and this is where they make the grave mistake as they lack the understanding of how exogenous esterified T works.

When first starting TTh or tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing dose/manipulating injection frequency) T levels will start rising over the following weeks until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE) and it is common for one to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust to the rising T levels/increase dopamine, lighting up the ARs (androgen receptors).

Flip the scenario when tweaking a protocol (decreasing dose T) it is common for many to experience a bumpy road temporarily especially when it comes to mood, libido and erectile function as not only are T levels declining but dopamine was being hammered 24/7.

The first 4-6 weeks can be rough and many want to bail but if you have a better understanding of how exogenous works that once blood levels have re-stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE) as the body slowly adjusts it will eventually adapt to the its new set-point over the following months.

Again every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance (12 weeks) before claiming whether it was truly a success or failure.

Even then what is more critical here after blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) it will still take a few more months for the body to adapt to its new set-point and this is the critical time period where one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being.

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance (12 weeks) before claiming it was truly a success or failure.

Then you will decide on your next move when it comes to tweaking your protocol (dose/injection frequency) if need be.

Sounds like you have been overmedicated from the get-go and never even had a chance to start on a sensible dose 100 mg T/week from the get go!

200/180/160/150 mg T.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum the standard starting dose TTh across the board is 100 mg T/week or better yet 50 mg T twice-weekly.

Most men on TTh are injecting 100-200 mg T/week whether once weekly or more commonly split into more frequent injections as in twice-weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD or daily.

This needs to be stressed here that the majority of men can easily hit a healthy let alone high trough FT injecting 100-150 mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.

Yes some men meaning those outliers may need the higher-end dose 200 mg T/week but it is far from common as in rare.

Unfortunately many are overmedicated from the get-go let alone brainwashed by the more T is better sheep mentality spewed on those so called HRT/men's health forums (Gootube, Facepalm, Bumnation, I just don't Geddit) loaded with all those blast n cruizzers let alone the so called gurus.

Throw in most of those dime a dozen run of the mill T-clinics to boot!

Shitshow at it's finest!

On your previous protocol 160 mg T/week you stated that you were hitting a very high peak TT 1140 ng/dL 3 days post-injection so your true peak (within 24 hrs) post-injection was most likely higher and you were hitting a descent true trough TT 557 ng/dL (7 days) post-injection.

Downfall here is you are missing the most important blood marker FT let alone we have no idea where your estradiol or SHBG sat let alone critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

TT means nothing without knowing where your FT sits.

You need to know where your trough FT sits on said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) this is critical!

Although your trough TT 557 ng/dL is descent and far from high your trough FT may still be descent depending on where your SHBG sat but chances are if it is highish./high than your trough FT would be subpar but again this is a whopping 7 days post-injection so your peak FT (within 24 hrs) and during the early part of the week would be high.

If anything you would have been far better of splitting up the dose and injecting 80 mg T every 3.5 days which would clip your peak and bring up your trough and result in more stable blood levels throughout the week.

You just made a big mistake increasing your dose from 160 mg T once weekly---->180 mg T (90 mg every 3.5 days) which is going to drive up your trough and still result in a very high peak TT/FT.

Hardest part here is you would have been far better off starting out on a lower weekly dose and working your way up if need be as it is always harder coming down than going up!

Even then every new protocol needs to be given 12 weeks in order to gauge whether it was truly a success or failure.

Need to bite the bullet and put in the time if you ever want to get anywhere!

Regardless you are missing critical blood markers FT, estradiol, SHBG and your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Need to know what true trough FT you are hitting on said protocol otherwise you will be chasing your tail
endlessly!
 
I’ve been all over the place. 200mg, 150, 160,180.

I’ve noticed the norm on this forum is to not mess with your dose. I fully Agree. But my biggest issue is my clinic.

They have me (and swear by it) stop pinning 7 days before labs. I’ve done it 3 days before as well to see my peak.

Trough after 7 days was 557 on 160 mg

Peak was 1140

I’m 41, 5’11”, 270 lbs (good amount of muscle and some fat of course) , train Jiu Jitsu, do hiit kettlebell workouts.

Bottom line is i want To figure out if my dose is too high because i dont Trust that they base it off my trough level. Aka lowest effective dose which I’ve never been able to test because I fell into the clinic cookie cutter trap at 200mg.



This is a messy situation here!

Unfortunately you got caught up being treated by one of those clueless dime a dozen run of the mill T-clinics dishing out those high dosed 200 mg T/week cookie cutter protocols which have all those poor chaps jacked up on T from the get-go!

Shocking that they never threw an AI in there to boot!

Overmedicating everyone from the get-go!

Many may feel like superman off the hop only to be let down months later!

F**king shameful!

Keep in mind that although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of T responsible for the positive effects.

Depending on the weekly dose of T/injection frequency a high/absurdly high peak would be expected.

When injecting once weekly (every 7 days) there will be a big difference between in the peak--->trough (40-50%) from day 1--->7 let alone blood levels will not be as stable throughout the week.

@Systemlord is out to lunch when he stated there will be a rapid decline in T levels.

Sure as hell not when using medium-acting esters (TC/TE)!

Look up the PKs TC/TE vs TP let alone oral TU!

On a once weekly injection protocol peak T levels will start rising within the first 2 hours due to a burst release and peak T level will be achieved within 24 hrs post-injection/even as early as 8-12 hrs when using the medium-acting esters (TC/TE), T levels will be very high the first 2-3 days and then gradually decline over the following days reaching true trough (lowest point) before your next injection on day 7.

The main downfall when injecting once weekly is in most cases the peak will very high/sky-high (depending on the dose used) only to be followed by much lower levels come true trough (7 days post-injection) and even then some men are still hitting a high/very high trough (depending on the weekly dose used).

This big difference between peak--->trough can result in a roller coaster type effect which can have a negative effect on energy, mood, libido and erectile function.

Some men may struggle with sides from the big weekly swing in T levels.

The easy fix here would be splitting up your weekly dose and injecting more frequently which will clip the peak--->trough and result in more stable blood levels throughout the week.

Top it off that you can get away with minimizing your peak while at the same time still hitting a healthy/high trough.

The standard starting dose for TTh is 100 mg T/week or better yet 50mg T every 3.5 days.

The goal here is to start low and go slow on a T-only protocol as we want to see where said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) has your trough TT and more importantly FT, estradiol let alone critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Blood work will be done once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) when using TC/TE due to the PKs and you want to test at the true trough (lowest point before your next injection).

The goal here is to achieve a healthy trough FT level.

Dose of T should never be increased at the 4-6 week mark once labs are done unless your trough FT is too low (highly unlikely) in most cases.

There will always be time to increase the dose of T or add in hCG if need be.

Many make the mistake of tweaking a protocol 4-6 weeks in because they do not feel well and this is where they make the grave mistake as they lack the understanding of how exogenous esterified T works.

When first starting TTh or tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing dose/manipulating injection frequency) T levels will start rising over the following weeks until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE) and it is common for one to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust to the rising T levels/increase dopamine, lighting up the ARs (androgen receptors).

Even then what is more critical here after blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) it will still take a few more months for the body to adapt to its new set-point and this is the critical time period where one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being.

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance (12 weeks) before claiming it was truly a success or failure.

Then you will decide on your next move when it comes to tweaking your protocol (dose/injection frequency) if need be.

Sounds like you have been overmedicated from the get-go and never even had a chance to start on a sensible dose 100 mg T/week from the get go!

200/180/160/150 mg T.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum the standard starting dose TTh across the board is 100 mg T/week or better yet 50 mg T twice-weekly.

Most men on TTh are injecting 100-200 mg T/week whether once weekly or more commonly split into more frequent injections as in twice-weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD or daily.

This needs to be stressed here.....the majority of men can easily hit a healthy let alone high trough FT injecting 100-150mg T/week especially when split into more frequent injections.

Yes some men meaning those outliers may need the higher-end dose 200mg T/week but it is far from common as in rare.

Unfortunately many are overmedicated from the get-go let alone brainwashed by the more T is better sheep mentality spewed on those so called HRT/men's health forums (Gootube, Facepalm, Bumnation, I just don't Geddit) loaded with all those blast n cruizzers let alone the so called gurus.

Throw in most of those dime a dozen run of the mill T-clinics to boot!

Shitshow at it's finest!

On your previous protocol 160 mg T/week you stated that you were hitting a very high peak TT 1140 ng/dL 3 days post-injection so your true peak (within 24 hrs) post-injection was most likely higher and you were hitting a descent true trough TT 557 ng/dL (7 days) post-injection.

Downfall here is you are missing the most important blood marker FT let alone we have no idea where your estradiol or SHBG sat let alone critical blood markers RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

TT means nothing without knowing where your FT sits.

You need to know where your trough FT sits on said protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) this is critical!

Although your trough TT 557 ng/dL is descent and far from high your trough FT may still be descent depending on where your SHBG sat but chances are if it is highish./high than your trough FT would be subpar but again this is a whopping 7 days post-injection so your peak FT (within 24 hrs) and during the early part of the week would be high.

If anything you would have been far better of splitting up the dose and injecting 80 mg T every 3.5 days which would clip your peak and bring up your trough.

You just made a big mistake increasing your dose from 160 mg T once weekly---->180 mg T (80 mg every 3.5 days) which is going to drive up your trough and still result in a very high peak TT/FT.

Hardest part here is you would have been far better off starting out on a lower weekly dose and working your way up if need be as it is always harder coming down than going up!

Even then every new protocol needs to be given 12 weeks in order to gauge whether it was truly a success or failure.

Need to bite the bullet and put in the time if you ever want to get anywhere!

Regardless you are missing critical blood markers FT, estradiol, SHBG and your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Need to know what true trough FT you are hitting on said protocol otherwise you will be chasing your tail
endlessly!
Wow you just Effing blew my mind lol. Being on it for only a year now i wish I knew All of this. Sad i just Found this forum last night. I effing KNEW something wasn’t right. These clinics want you on a high dose to prescribe AI etc etc.

I can Attach all my blood works over the year if it helps. One is from June 2024 on 200 mg and the second is in December from 160mg.

All from December 28th

FT 61.95
SBHG 31.20
Estradiol 44.8
RBC 5.58
Hematocrit 49.7
Hemoglobin 17.4 (recently donated and it was 16)

So with everything you said i DID notice a better response with pinning 3x a week at 150 or 160mg and with said lab work. But yea man thank you SO SO much for the insane amount of info. Mind blowing.

Now the biggest question….

If i want To start lowering my dose to the “minimum effective” dose, how do i go About it minimizing side effects?
 

Attachments

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Wow you just Effing blew my mind lol. Being on it for only a year now i wish I knew All of this. Sad i just Found this forum last night. I effing KNEW something wasn’t right. These clinics want you on a high dose to prescribe AI etc etc.

I can Attach all my blood works over the year if it helps. One is from June 2024 on 200 mg and the second is in December from 160mg.

All from December 28th

FT 61.95
SBHG 31.20
Estradiol 44.8
RBC 5.58
Hematocrit 49.7
Hemoglobin 17.4 (recently donated and it was 16)

So with everything you said i DID notice a better response with pinning 3x a week at 150 or 160mg and with said lab work. But yea man thank you SO SO much for the insane amount of info. Mind blowing.

Now the biggest question….

If i want To start lowering my dose to the “minimum effective” dose, how do i go About it minimizing side effects.

Just my two cents… if you are on 180/week now and want to lower, then drop to 150. I’d normally recommend a somewhat slower decrease, but that’s honestly not a huge drop and plus that’s where you felt best. If you’d prefer, you could do 170 next week, 160 the following, and then 150 after that then stay there for a while to acclimate. Stay there for 10-12 weeks then if you decide you still want to lower drop down to around 125 or so. After giving that multiple weeks to see how you feel on it, evaluate and decide the path forward. Are there any particular health concerns you’re worried about, or just nervous in general? I’d say most of the time warnings of issue will manifest in other things like anxiety, sleeplessness, higher blood pressure, etc. If those things aren’t present then you’re probably ok, especially if your t levels aren’t through the roof.

Also, if you’re planning to adjust protocols to find the optimal approach for you, be wary of falling into the trap of wanting to attribute any negative symptom of experience to testosterone…and thereby thinking it can be fixed by yet another adjustment. It’s probably better to just find a protocol that’s you feeling great with good bloodwork, then focus on other aspects of your life like diet, exercise, sleep, relationships, healthy hobbies, etc. There are tons of things that can make your life better, so don’t over fixate on one thing (trt) while overlooking the others.
 
Just my two cents… if you are on 180/week now and want to lower, then drop to 150. I’d normally recommend a somewhat slower decrease, but that’s honestly not a huge drop and plus that’s where you felt best. If you’d prefer, you could do 170 next week, 160 the following, and then 150 after that then stay there for a while to acclimate. Stay there for 10-12 weeks then if you decide you still want to lower drop down to around 125 or so. After giving that multiple weeks to see how you feel on it, evaluate and decide the path forward. Are there any particular health concerns you’re worried about, or just nervous in general? I’d say most of the time warnings of issue will manifest in other things like anxiety, sleeplessness, higher blood pressure, etc. If those things aren’t present then you’re probably ok, especially if your t levels aren’t through the roof.

Also, if you’re planning to adjust protocols to find the optimal approach for you, be wary of falling into the trap of wanting to attribute any negative symptom of experience to testosterone…and thereby thinking it can be fixed by yet another adjustment. It’s probably better to just find a protocol that’s you feeling great with good bloodwork, then focus on other aspects of your life like diet, exercise, sleep, relationships, healthy hobbies, etc. There are tons of things that can make your life better, so don’t over fixate on one thing (trt) while overlooking the others.
Man I’ll take any “cents”. Appreciate you Phil. This forum is welcoming and direct and kind. You’re all amazing.

Yea i went from 180-150mg and didn’t notice much. Maybe a little anxiety but i already Have that. I’ve been on klonopin for a year and lexapro (embarrassing) so it’s not like it’s something new for me. Also been on a calcium channel blocker for BP for about 5 years now. But funny enough my BP for the most part is normal even at higher dosages of T.

Only health concerns i have Are nothing honestly. Maybe besides protecting my CVS.

It’s weird because i have More health anxiety than anything. So i agree with you about blaming other issues on TRT. I’ve noticed a lot of people saying they have this or that and they “think” it’s the T but i believe It’s mental for sure.
 
Wow you just Effing blew my mind lol. Being on it for only a year now i wish I knew All of this. Sad i just Found this forum last night. I effing KNEW something wasn’t right. These clinics want you on a high dose to prescribe AI etc etc.

I can Attach all my blood works over the year if it helps. One is from June 2024 on 200 mg and the second is in December from 160mg.

All from December 28th

FT 61.95
SBHG 31.20
Estradiol 44.8
RBC 5.58
Hematocrit 49.7
Hemoglobin 17.4 (recently donated and it was 16)

So with everything you said i DID notice a better response with pinning 3x a week at 150 or 160mg and with said lab work. But yea man thank you SO SO much for the insane amount of info. Mind blowing.

Now the biggest question….

If i want To start lowering my dose to the “minimum effective” dose, how do i go About it minimizing side effects?

Your first labs (3/1/24) are pre-TTh and the other report is when you were following the 160 mg T/week protocol.

On your first lab report (pre TTh) you did not fast and not sure what time you had your blood work done.

In order to get an accurate result your T levels need to be tested in the early am in a fasted state otherwise your results would be skewed!

Even then you were hitting a lower-end TT 324 ng/dL with highish SHBG 40.2 nmol/L and an Albumin 5.1 g/dL so if we calculated your FT using the linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen your cFTV 5.27 ng/dL would be bottom-end!




Your pre-TTh cFTV!

1742144134019.webp





As you can see on the second lab report when you were injecting 160 mg T once weekly your trough TT (7 days) post-injection was a descent 557 ng/dL and your SHBG was driven down from a highish 40.2 nmol/L---> a normal 31.2 nmol/L due to the highish once weekly dose of T.

Your Albumin went from 5.1---4.4 g/dL.

If we take your descent trough (7 days) post-injection TT 557 ng/dL, normal SHBG 31.2 nmol/L and Albumin 4.4 g/dL and calculate your FT using the linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen your cFTV 12.2 ng/dL is not low but under where a healthy young male would sit 13-15 ng/dL (at their daily short-lived peak).

Again although your trough FT may seem far from stellar this is 7 days post-injection so your peak FT (within 24 hrs) and during the first 2-3 days will be very high!

As I stated previously if you were to split up your weekly dose 160 mg T/week and inject 80 mg T twice-weekly than you could easily clip your peak and bring up your trough FT and have more stable blood levels throughout the week.


Your trough cFTV (7 days) post-injection!

1742144881203.webp





Now if we take your take your so called peak (3 days) post-injection TT 1140 ng/dL, SHBG 31.2 nmol/L and Albumin 4.4 g/dL your so called peak cFTV 29.5 ng/dL would be very high!

Keep in mind your true peak (within 24 hrs) cFTV would be higher as in 30+ ng/dL.

Again a high/absurdly high peak would be expected depending on the dose of T/injection frequency!


Your so called peak cFTV (3 days) post-injection)!

1742145379041.webp





Your trough estradiol is high so your peak will be higher.

RBCs and hematocrit are at the top-end and hemoglobin is just over top-end 17.4 g/dL mind you the difference between H/H.

* While the hematocrit is often roughly three times the hemoglobin value (Hct ≈ 3 x Hb), the actual ratio is more complex and can vary depending on factors like age and hydration status


As I stated in a previous thread:

If one has no underlying health issues and is not experiencing any negative sides most in the know specializing in testosterone therapy would not fret if the patient's hematocrit falls within 50-54%.

Yes some will be more cautious and take measures once hematocrit hits 52%.

Most of the endos are sticklers and hesitate once your hematocrit gets over the top end and prefer to keep patients levels no higher than 50%.

If you are looking to soften the blow when lowering your weekly dose not cutting the dose too drastically would be the easier route mind you it may take longer to achieve your end point.

Hard to say how you will react as some men are very sensitive and will have a bumpier ride.

If it were me I would just bite the bullet and start over on a lower weekly dose.

Not sure how long you have been on the newer protocol 180 mg T/week split 90 mg twice-weekly but chances are the dose is still too high so you would have been better off splitting up your previous dose 160 mgT/week into twice-weekly injections at least so you could have seen what trough FT you would hit which most likely would have been high-end/high!

Once you put in the time 12 weeks than you could have decided if tweaking your protocol further would have been needed.

Do what you feel is best for you!





 
Your first labs (3/1/24) are pre-TTh and the other report is when you were following the 160 mg T/week protocol.

On your first lab report (pre TTh) you did not fast and not sure what time you had your blood work done.

In order to get an accurate result your T levels need to be tested in the early am in a fasted state otherwise your results would be skewed!

Even then you were hitting a lower-end TT 324 ng/dL with highish SHBG 40.2 nmol/L and an Albumin 5.1 g/dL so if we calculated your FT using the linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen your cFTV 5.27 ng/dL would be bottom-end!




Your pre-TTh cFTV!

View attachment 50890




As you can see on the second lab report when you were injecting 160 mg T once weekly your trough TT (7 days) post-injection was a descent 557 ng/dL and your SHBG was driven down from a highish 40.2 nmol/L---> a normal 31.2 nmol/L due to the highish once weekly dose of T.

Your Albumin went from 5.1---4.4 g/dL.

If we take your descent trough (7 days) post-injection TT 557 ng/dL, normal SHBG 31.2 nmol/L and Albumin 4.4 g/dL and calculate your FT using the linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen your cFTV 12.2 ng/dL is not low but under where a healthy young male would sit 13-15 ng/dL (at their daily short-lived peak).

Again although your trough FT may seem far from stellar this is 7 days post-injection so your peak FT (within 24 hrs) and during the first 2-3 days will be very high!

As I stated previously if you were to split up your weekly dose 160 mg T/week and inject 80 mg T twice-weekly than you could easily clip your peak and bring up your trough FT and have more stable blood levels throughout the week.


Your trough cFTV (7 days) post-injection!

View attachment 50891




Now if we take your take your so called peak (3 days) post-injection TT 1140 ng/dL, SHBG 31.2 nmol/L and Albumin 4.4 g/dL your so called peak cFTV 29.5 ng/dL would be very high!

Keep in mind your true peak (within 24 hrs) cFTV would be higher as in 30+ ng/dL.

Again a high/absurdly high peak would be expected depending on the dose of T/injection frequency!


Your so called peak cFTV (3 days) post-injection)!

View attachment 50892




Your trough estradiol is high so your peak will be higher.

RBCs and hematocrit are at the top-end and hemoglobin is just over top-end 17.4 g/dL mind you the difference between H/H.

* While the hematocrit is often roughly three times the hemoglobin value (Hct ≈ 3 x Hb), the actual ratio is more complex and can vary depending on factors like age and hydration status


As I stated in a previous thread:

If one has no underlying health issues and is not experiencing any negative sides most in the know specializing in testosterone therapy would not fret if the patient's hematocrit falls within 50-54%.

Yes some will be more cautious and take measures once hematocrit hits 52%.

Most of the endos are sticklers and hesitate once your hematocrit gets over the top end and prefer to keep patients levels no higher than 50%.

If you are looking to soften the blow when lowering your weekly dose not cutting the dose too drastically would be the easier route mind you it may take longer to achieve your end point.

Hard to say how you will react as some men are very sensitive and will have a bumpier ride.

If it were me I would just bite the bullet and start over on a lower weekly dose.

Not sure how long you have been on the newer protocol 180 mg T/week split 90 mg twice-weekly but chances are the dose is still too high so you would have been better off splitting up your previous dose 160 mgT/week into twice-weekly injections at least so you could have seen what trough FT you would hit which most likely would have been high-end/high!

Once you put in the time 12 weeks than you could have decided if tweaking your protocol further would have been needed.

Do what you feel is best for you!





I don’t even know what to say lol. I feel Like I’m talking to a chemist! Which is compliment btw. I think based on what you were saying and what Phil mentioned , my sweet spot is in the 150mg range. I’ll stay there for a period of time and get labs then drop even lower. Stopping abruptly of course would hit me hard. I’ve been on the 180mg protocol for 3 weeks now. But pre loaded my shots to 160 split 3 x a week. Idk why but I’ve always felt better on 3x a week. Maybe it’s a placebo. But the long term goal here is to get to a lower dose as discussed. Cannot thank you enough for your insight and being helpful!
 
I don’t even know what to say lol. I feel Like I’m talking to a chemist! Which is compliment btw. I think based on what you were saying and what Phil mentioned , my sweet spot is in the 150mg range. I’ll stay there for a period of time and get labs then drop even lower. Stopping abruptly of course would hit me hard. I’ve been on the 180mg protocol for 3 weeks now. But pre loaded my shots to 160 split 3 x a week. Idk why but I’ve always felt better on 3x a week. Maybe it’s a placebo. But the long term goal here is to get to a lower dose as discussed. Cannot thank you enough for your insight and being helpful!

Yes just pick your dose/injection frequency and stay consistent.

Get labs done after you reach steady-state (4-6 weeks) and make sure to test at the true trough so you can see where your TT and more importantly FT and estradiol sit.

If you are achieving a healthy trough FT which will easily be the case stay with it for a full 12 weeks before deciding on whether it needs to be tweaked further.

Again every protocol needs to be given 12 weeks before claiming whether it was truly a success or failure.

Your best bet next time around is to pay out of pocket and get your own labs done using the most accurate assays TT (LC/MS-MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis).

This is critical especially when it comes to testing the unbound fraction free testosterone!

The most cost effective option would be through Nelson's discountedlabs.





Still always need to keep an eye on your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit too.

Also need to understand that when one first starts TTh or is tweaking a protocol increasing dose of T hematocrit will start rising within the 1st month and can take anywhere from 6-9 months and in some cases a year to reach peak levels.

Where your hematocrit sits 6 week in let alone 3-6 months in is not where it will end up.

Your blood markers RBCs and hematocrit were were already at the top-end with hemo just over on your previous protocol 160 mg T/week and seeing as you just jacked up your dose 3 weeks ago to 180 mg you will have started driving up these markers further but it is of no concern now as you plan on decreasing your dose which will bring them down.

Even then to truly know where your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit would have truly sat on the 160 mg T/week dose let alone when you previously tried 200/180/150 mg you would have needed to be on the protocol for 9-12 months!

Best of luck on your journey keep us posted!
 

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