Pregnenolone makes high dose Testosterone tolerable

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Skip to 2:00

Dave Lee explains that a Pregnenolone deficiency doesn't allow for higher testosterone dosages to be tolerated.
Supplementing Pregnenolone is an easy fix instead of lowering your testosterone levels.

 

There’s just something causing some people to have pretty drastic differences in labs when going to subQ from IM

By the way when I started TRT initially sub q worked fine. Until it stopped working as good and my levels fell two things happened:

1) My belly fat got full of nodules from the oil
2) On TRT I started eating like a pig and got fatter(now working hard to get back my pre TRT weight with much better body composition)

 

@ivkonst2017 and others on IM, do you mind sharing your experience with IM vs. SC? Was there a difference in the subjective experience? If so, would you tie the problems with SC specifically to lower levels?

The reason I ask is that there is no doubt that my levels get way up with SC. Too high with common doses. Makes me feel really bad. The last thing I am looking to do is to get levels even higher. I am curious if there may be some benefit outside of total T levels, such as DHT and/or E2 conversion that may differ between the two. I realize these were looked at in some of the studies being quoted here, but wondering what your experience has been?

It is very difficult to analyze about that. But from my subjective experience it is not only the levels. IM somehow works more like testosterone is expected to work. Hard to explain, but if you are not dialed in the first thing I would do on your place is to ditch the sub q for good and start doing proper IM injections with long enough needle to go into the muscle(3/4 inch will do it provided you are not 30+ percent boey fat in that case for the leg locations - 1 inch) Ventroglute is the best site for me, you can also include delts into the rotation.

Maybe if you have issues on higher doses you want to reduce your dose with 10-15mg when switching to IM, but I dont know you or your case to give such advice. I can only say on IM you will 95 percent get predictable and stable t levels according to your ptotocol, while on sub q is 50/50. But you know this may not fix your issues, because optimizing the t levels is not the only variable in our body that affects how we feel.

 

Ime, it’s more than just a few random guys. I’m part of this forum, a few other HRT forums, and about 6 HRT related fb groups. Over the 8 years that I’ve been doing research on HRT, I’ve definitely seen hundreds and hundreds of men that had to switch back to IM after trying subQ. Most of them backed up via bloodwork. There’s just something causing some people to have pretty drastic differences in labs when going to subQ from IM. Not sure exactly what it is. I never considered switching to subQ, so it’s not something I’ve personally delved into a great deal.

It's a lot easier to say "hundreds and hundreds" than it is to name them. Can you even find a couple dozen who have done multiple trough measurements on both SC and IM at the same dose and frequency? Of course one measurement in a multi-day injection cycle does not give you area under the curve, which is the actual measure of absorption. Differences in curve shapes are expected, with peaks generally lower and troughs generally higher when switching from IM to SC. So are you claiming the opposite—which at least seems possible if there are unexpected absorption rates—or are you saying that testosterone is lower throughout the cycle with SC? But with most guys taking only one measurement in a cycle you don't really know, do you? And if you are claiming poorer absorption with SC then there's the problem of the missing testosterone. Where did it go? The absorption paths are pretty well characterized. Are you hypothesizing some new pharmacokinetics that the studies missed? What are they? The plausibility is lacking.

 

It's a lot easier to say "hundreds and hundreds" than it is to name them. Can you even find a couple dozen who have done multiple trough measurements on both SC and IM at the same dose and frequency? Of course one measurement in a multi-day injection cycle does not give you area under the curve, which is the actual measure of absorption. Differences in curve shapes are expected, with peaks generally lower and troughs generally higher when switching from IM to SC. So are you claiming the opposite—which at least seems possible if there are unexpected absorption rates—or are you saying that testosterone is lower throughout the cycle with SC? But with most guys taking only one measurement in a cycle you don't really know, do you? And if you are claiming poorer absorption with SC then there's the problem of the missing testosterone. Where did it go? The absorption paths are pretty well characterized. Are you hypothesizing some new pharmacokinetics that the studies missed? What are they? The plausibility is lacking.

I have no idea what’s going on between SQ and IM tbh lol. All I know is over the years I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of men say they didn’t feel good on subQ, compared to IM, and then they would go back to IM and feel better. Some of them would get labs before switching back, and it always seemed that their numbers were lower than when they were on IM. I honestly have no clue about any of the science behind why this happens. I just know sometimes it does. But for some men they notice no difference going from IM to subQ. And then I’m sure there’s some men that feel better going to subQ from IM. All I’m saying is that if there’s any studies out there, with enough participants, and for enough of a length of time, that shows that SubQ is going to result in the same exact levels as IM, 100% of the time, the study is clearly flawed. If that doesn’t exist in real life, it can’t exist in a study, unless the study is flawed or manipulated.

 

I have no idea what’s going on between SQ and IM ...

And yet you feel qualified to label studies as "flawed or manipulated" if they don't conform to your subjective impression of anonymous forum comments?

 

I believe that oral pregnenolone doses for men on TRT have to be higher than 100 mg per day for levels to raise enough to make a dent on progesterone.

I started taking 100 mg per night this supplement that got good reviews :

My pregnenolone increased but could be higher:

My progesterone (LC/MS) did not increase.

My mood has improved and I am sleeping solid.

I was on the Empower hydrogel testosterone cream and no hCG while on the pregnenolone experiment. I wonder what TRT+ hCG + 100 mg pregnenolone would do. I am re-starting hCG 500 IU twice per week today, keeping 100mg per day of pregnenolone, and switching back to 100mg once per week of testosterone enanthate. Daily T cream application was very successful in increasing my T levels over 1000 ng/dL but I think I am sticking with injections since I find them more practical when I travel like I am in the present.

I am considering getting the low dose progesterone cream that @Gianluca uses.

 

I believe that oral pregnenolone doses for men on TRT have to be higher than 100 mg per day for levels to raise enough to make a dent on progesterone.

I started taking 100 mg per night this supplement that got good reviews :

View attachment 15449

My pregnenolone increased but could be higher:

View attachment 15448

My progesterone (LC/MS) did not increase.

My mood has improved and I am sleeping solid.

I was on the Empower hydrogel testosterone cream and no hCG while on the pregnenolone experiment. I wonder what TRT+ hCG + 100 mg pregnenolone would do. I am re-starting hCG 500 IU twice per week today, keeping 100mg per day of pregnenolone, and switching back to 100mg once per week of testosterone enanthate. Daily T cream application was very successful in increasing my T levels over 1000 ng/dL but I think I am sticking with injections since I find them more practical when I travel like I am in the present.

I am considering getting the low dose progesterone cream that @Gianluca uses.

I have tried for a few days 100mg pregnenolone when I initially started TRT. I stopped it cause it made me terrible sleepy. If I start preg now I would start at around 25mg and try to go to 50.

By the way I noticed in the lab there is another ptogesterone test - 17-OH-Progesterone. How does it differ to the standart progesterone blood test?

 

I believe that oral pregnenolone doses for men on TRT have to be higher than 100 mg per day for levels to raise enough to make a dent on progesterone.

I started taking 100 mg per night this supplement that got good reviews :

View attachment 15449

My pregnenolone increased but could be higher:

View attachment 15448

My progesterone (LC/MS) did not increase.

My mood has improved and I am sleeping solid.

I was on the Empower hydrogel testosterone cream and no hCG while on the pregnenolone experiment. I wonder what TRT+ hCG + 100 mg pregnenolone would do. I am re-starting hCG 500 IU twice per week today, keeping 100mg per day of pregnenolone, and switching back to 100mg once per week of testosterone enanthate. Daily T cream application was very successful in increasing my T levels over 1000 ng/dL but I think I am sticking with injections since I find them more practical when I travel like I am in the present.

I am considering getting the low dose progesterone cream that @Gianluca uses.

@Nelson Vergel, noooooo! You were my hope that cream might work for me! Like you, I did awesome on it until I wasn't doing awesome any more. I was waiting for you to come back around and figure out how to make the cream work! Oh well. I am still working on things, trying to manipulate one variable at a time.

 

I have no idea what’s going on between SQ and IM tbh lol.

The science is not very difficult at all and having issues on sub-q totally makes sense. A very basic rule in pharmacokinetics - oil moves and absorbes well within muscle tissue, water based solution within fat tissue. So the general consensus is to inject oil in muscle, water in fat.

Some years ago dr Crisler I think first made widely known that testosterone can be injected in fat and some people get good results, but this is where the science is not clear - how does it work and when.

 

@Nelson Vergel, noooooo! You were my hope that cream might work for me! Like you, I did awesome on it until I wasn't doing awesome any more. I was waiting for you to come back around and figure out how to make the cream work! Oh well. I am still working on things, trying to manipulate one variable at a time.

As I understand he doesnt feel bad from the scrotal cream, he just doesnt want the overhead to apply that thing twice a day when he can do two shots per week instead. I totally understand his motives. The cream is very unpractical, but for someone who feela really better on it it is worthy.

 

And yet you feel qualified to label studies as "flawed or manipulated" if they don't conform to your subjective impression of anonymous forum comments?

I think @Cataceous is making some excellent points and I fully support his position. All he is saying is that science matters. I agree. Science is merely a way we answer questions and make predictions about the natural world. Today's body of science is an evolution of hundreds of thousands of years of humans who once gazed at the sky and wondered: what is up there? That's it. Things like DNA and RNA didn't "exist" until the 1950's. Thanks to scientists dedicated to helping, solving, curing and understanding, we can now do things that were unimaginable 70 years ago. Science and the studies that report scientific discovery is not by nature perverted and driven by money hungry, conflicted mad-scientist like some here would like to think. It can be inconvenient to read a study that is conflict with your personal experience, but that does not mean it's not good data. Skeptics should not blindly discount information because it was derived in a scientific manner.

On the other hand, I reiterate that anecdotal information matters, especially when there is void of scientific information.

My original statement was two-fold:

1. Science matters
2. Dave Lee may be awesome at what he does, but he portrays himself as science-driven expert when his experience is pure anecdote

Again, nothing wrong with anecdotal experience, but be transparent about it. When you couch all your statements around a bunch of scientific information (mind you without references to the original research), you appear to be attempting to portray yourself as a scientific authority.

 

noooooo! You were my hope that cream might work for me! Like you, I did awesome on it until I wasn't doing awesome any more. I was waiting for you to come back around and figure out how to make the cream work! Oh well. I am still working on things, trying to manipulate one variable at a time.

I highly recommend the hydrogel testosterone cream for those who like daily applications. There was nothing wrong with it. I would apply two clicks on scrotum and one click on chest if I have to use it again.

 

By the way I noticed in the lab there is another ptogesterone test - 17-OH-Progesterone. How does it differ to the standart progesterone blood test?

This test measures the effect of adding hCG to TRT without having to wait 8 weeks to collect a sperm sample. Here is information:

Best hCG Dose with TRT: 17-Hydroxyprogesterone Lab Test

The use of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) increases blood levels of testosterone but, surprisingly, it decreases the level of testosterone inside the testicles (Intratesticular testosterone or ITT). ITT is key for proper sperm production. This ITT decrease is due to the LH and FSH shut...

www.excelmale.com

Buy an affordable 17 hydroxyprogesterone Test- Discounted Labs

Explore the 17 hydroxyprogesterone test at DiscountedLabs.com, and take a proactive step towards understanding and managing fertility. Our state-of-the-art testing methods offer accurate insights, providing a clear path to optimize reproductive well-being

www.discountedlabs.com

We really don't know if supplementing progesterone while on TRT increases 17-OH-progesterone. Only one way to find out: take progesterone for two weeks and test for both progesterone and 17-OH-progesterone

 

And yet you feel qualified to label studies as "flawed or manipulated" if they don't conform to your subjective impression of anonymous forum comments?

Haha nah it isn’t like that. I’m just saying that studies showing that subQ injections will 100% result in the same levels as IM injections isn’t what we see in real life. Just stating an objective fact, nothing more. For me to say whether a study is manipulated or flawed I’d have to assess each study individually

 

I highly recommend the hydrogel testosterone cream for those who like daily applications. There was nothing wrong with it. I would apply two clicks on scrotum and one click on chest if I have to use it again.

What time of day was your second application? I don’t wanna do it too late in the day to interfere with sleep.

 

As I understand he doesnt feel bad from the scrotal cream, he just doesnt want the overhead to apply that thing twice a day when he can do two shots per week instead. I totally understand his motives. The cream is very unpractical, but for someone who feela really better on it it is worthy.

This is how I felt on the cream as well. In theory is seems easier and more practical, but it was the exact opposite for me. I inject EOD, and that is waaaayyyy more practical and easy for me than cream was. I ended up hating to have to apply the cream in the morning, wait a little for it to dry, then obv worry about activities ur going to do a few hours after, like sex or swimming, or anything where ur gonna be sweating a lot, and then having to worry about repeating this whole process over again later in the day, usually while at work. Idk why I didn’t think of all these cons prior to starting. Guess I got caught up in the hype. Either way, it’s soooo much easier to just take 5 mins in the morning EOD to inject and be done and not have to worry about anything

 

This is how I felt on the cream as well. In theory is seems easier and more practical, but it was the exact opposite for me. I inject EOD, and that is waaaayyyy more practical and easy for me than cream was. I ended up hating to have to apply the cream in the morning, wait a little for it to dry, then obv worry about activities ur going to do a few hours after, like sex or swimming, or anything where ur gonna be sweating a lot, and then having to worry about repeating this whole process over again later in the day, usually while at work. Idk why I didn’t think of all these cons prior to starting. Guess I got caught up in the hype. Either way, it’s soooo much easier to just take 5 mins in the morning EOD to inject and be done and not have to worry about anything

Definitely inconvenient, but how did it work? Was it beneficial for mood/energy/libido?

 

This is how I felt on the cream as well. In theory is seems easier and more practical, but it was the exact opposite for me. I inject EOD, and that is waaaayyyy more practical and easy for me than cream was. I ended up hating to have to apply the cream in the morning, wait a little for it to dry, then obv worry about activities ur going to do a few hours after, like sex or swimming, or anything where ur gonna be sweating a lot, and then having to worry about repeating this whole process over again later in the day, usually while at work. Idk why I didn’t think of all these cons prior to starting. Guess I got caught up in the hype. Either way, it’s soooo much easier to just take 5 mins in the morning EOD to inject and be done and not have to worry about anything

The only inconvenience is for people like me who self-prescribe testosterone as they won't find a doctor in Europe that prescribes test to a 33 years old who needs it.

I'm not going to order UGL.
I'm not going to bother home brewing.
I have the convenience to be able to order a compounded testosterone cream from a pharmacist I know.

 

The only inconvenience is for people like me who self-prescribe testosterone as they won't find a doctor in Europe that prescribes test to a 33 years old who needs it.

I'm not going to order UGL.
I'm not going to bother home brewing.
I have the convenience to be able to order a compounded testosterone cream from a pharmacist I know.

Hey whatever works. All that matters is u get that sweet sweet testosterone in ur system one way or the other lol

 

I believe that oral pregnenolone doses for men on TRT have to be higher than 100 mg per day for levels to raise enough to make a dent on progesterone.

I started taking 100 mg per night this supplement that got good reviews :

View attachment 15449

My pregnenolone increased but could be higher:

View attachment 15448

My progesterone (LC/MS) did not increase.

My mood has improved and I am sleeping solid.

I was on the Empower hydrogel testosterone cream and no hCG while on the pregnenolone experiment. I wonder what TRT+ hCG + 100 mg pregnenolone would do. I am re-starting hCG 500 IU twice per week today, keeping 100mg per day of pregnenolone, and switching back to 100mg once per week of testosterone enanthate. Daily T cream application was very successful in increasing my T levels over 1000 ng/dL but I think I am sticking with injections since I find them more practical when I travel like I am in the present.

I am considering getting the low dose progesterone cream that @Gianluca uses.

@Nelson Vergel , you used a Pregnenolone supplement that is in a lipid matrix, that will by pass the liver, and that is why your Progesterone did not increase. The same happens when using a Pregnelonone cream, for the same reason, by passing the “first pass” in the liver.

I increased my Progesterone level with either a 50mg or 100mg micronized capsule from Empower. Progesterone increased about the same level despite more or less oral Pregnenolone was used. Not quiet sure what the assay is on Labcorp for that, but Progesterone went from .1 to .7 with both trials

I do not use a Progesterone cream, but Pregnenolone cream, along with 50mg capsule