Not tolerating Test Prop?

[Cataceous]

Thanks, very thorough response! I have put the attached plan together. Does this seem like a reasonable approach? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It is a pretty reasonable transition. One thing I'd note is that it does yield a nontrivial drop in peak testosterone over a relatively short time frame. This could lead to some discomfort, at least for a little.

To give a sense of this, here are rough estimates of my serum levels—at steady state—with your before and after protocols:

10 mg TP daily
Peak TT: 1500 ng/dL
Average: 1000 ng/dL
Trough TT: 500 ng/dL

6.25 mg TE and 4 mg TP daily
Peak TT: 1150 ng/dL
Average: 950 ng/dL
Trough TT: 750 ng/dL

You can scale as needed to better match your results. But there's still the assumption that your absorption rate for propionate is similar to mine.

 

[R2D2]

It is a pretty reasonable transition. One thing I'd note is that it does yield a nontrivial drop in peak testosterone over a relatively short time frame. This could lead to some discomfort, at least for a little.

Thank you for the thoughtful observation @Cataceous. Validation on approach is appreciated. I've already started to feel the effect of the modified dose/drop, which I hope will level out over time.

Intrigued by your GnRH/enclomiphene experiment; I noticed that you had to reduce your testerostone to maximise the effect of the GnRH. I'm keen to introduce in future as it theoretically more closely mimics nature's design.

Out of interest, I've noticed that you are very well organised about your blood testing. I have been dosing at night (before bed) opposed to morning in order to more naturally mimic testosterone release (peak in am, decline in pm) - is my approach consistent with this intended outcome? If you think it is, what would you say is the best time to measure peak and trough?

 

[Cataceous]

...
Intrigued by your GnRH/enclomiphene experiment; I noticed that you had to reduce your testerostone to maximise the effect of the GnRH. I'm keen to introduce in future as it theoretically more closely mimics nature's design.

Out of interest, I've noticed that you are very well organised about your blood testing. I have been dosing at night (before bed) opposed to morning in order to more naturally mimic testosterone release (peak in am, decline in pm) - is my approach consistent with this intended outcome? If you think it is, what would you say is the best time to measure peak and trough?

In the GnRH experiment it's not for sure that a testosterone dose reduction is required. Androgens are directly suppressive at the hypothalamus, but not at the pituitary. Exogenous GnRH is bypassing the hypothalamus. On the other hand, estrogens are suppressive at the pituitary, and more testosterone means more estradiol. This suppression is counteracted by the enclomiphene, so the answer depends on the relative strength of enclomiphene in blocking estrogen at the pituitary. A high enough dose of the SERM probably could obviate a need for less exogenous testosterone. However, the actions of SERMs are not as well characterized as I might like, and it remains possible that they block estrogens at places where we want them. Therefore I try to minimize the dose.

I'm certainly interested in seeing other reports about GnRH use; they are virtually nonexistent except for the guys finding out that large doses once a week don't do much.

When I use propionate, morning dosing gives a better approximation to natural serum levels. Testosterone rises quickly to a peak within 2-4 hours. I suppose the best approximation would be to wake up at 2-4 am to take the injection. But taking it on waking works well for me. Injections before bed, even with longer esters, invariably interfere with my sleep. If you've tried both and nightly injections feel better then that's reason enough to continue. But it will be tough for you to measure peak or trough serum testosterone this way.

To get a trough T measurement I just go to the lab first thing in the morning before injecting. For a peak reading I inject first thing as usual and then go to the lab after 2-3 hours. Lately I've preferred peak measurements because people think you're still hypogonadal if you report TT at 300-500 ng/dL, even though these are quite comparable to natural trough values. Lab values for natural testosterone levels are based on peaks.

 

[R2D2]

Thanks @Cataceous

I'll update this thread with my experience/findings/labs - particularly when I introduce GnRH. I wanted to go on the pulsatile pump years ago, but as you've mentioned elswhere, the cost is a barrier (not to mention the inconvenience of being tethered to a pump!).

 

[madman]

Thanks @Cataceous

I'll update this thread with my experience/findings/labs - particularly when I introduce GnRH. I wanted to go on the pulsatile pump years ago, but as you've mentioned elswhere, the cost is a barrier (not to mention the inconvenience of being tethered to a pump!).

 Pulsatile GnRH Therapy

Treatment with GnRH requires subcutaneous pulsatile application using a portable pump and a butterfly needle placed in the abdominal wall and changed every 2 days. The dose ranges from 5 to 20 µg/ 120 min, or 100–400 ng/kg body weight per 120 min. Low-dose pulsatile GnRH therapy (2 µg/150 min) may not elicit a sufficient pituitary response, reflecting different degrees of central maturation [16]. In most cases, the induction of spermatogenesis is evidenced by the appearance of sperm in the ejaculate. Therapy lasts on average 4 months, as shown in six of seven GnRH therapy cycles in patients with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism or Kallman syndrome [10]. Sperm counts were below the normal range of 1.2–15.3 mill/ml.


When pulsatile GnRH treatment fails, a mutation of the GnRH receptor gene can be the cause. These defects have been described and are probably transmitted as an autosomal recessive trait. A variable degree of hypogonadism in an affected kindred was seen: a male showed no response to pulsatile administration of GnRH, which was effective in his two sisters, all showing clinical patterns of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [19].


Another cause for failure of pulsatile GnRH treatment was observed in a patient who formed anti-GnRH antibodies during intravenous administration. This was associated with deterioration of testosterone and gonadotropin levels [20].

Gonadotropin (GnRH, FSH, HCG & HMG) Treatment in Male Infertility

Male hypogonadism is often associated with impaired fertility. In special cases, treatment with gonadotropins can induce, maintain, or augment spermatogenesis. Patients responsive to such regimens are men with secondary hypogonadism, lacking gonadotropin secretion due to pituitary disorders or...

www.excelmale.com

Table 1: Modern modalities of gonadotropin substitution therapy in men to achieve spermatogenesis and maintain androgenicity

 

[susuzadam]

I haven't seen anything definitive, but the creators of steroidcalc.com give the best numbers for the other esters, and they have the half-life of T phenypropionate as 1.5 days. Daily injections of this might allow better emulation of diurnal testosterone variations when propionate proves to be too fast acting. But getting access to it legitimately might not be so easy.

Do you think, my joint pains comes from test prop's or ace's too fast acting type? SHBG is around 4-8 mmol's (10-57 reference range). And I tried cyp-ace blend.
25mg ace + 12.5mg cyp
15mg ace + 12.5mg cyp
10mg ace + 25mg cyp
5mg ace + 12.5mg cyp
Maybe I didn't give enough time each, but I never ever felt any joint relief.
25mg npp for 3-4 days did its job for my back and knees, but for only daily activities. After squat session lower back sensitized a bit again, too much better than low e2 time. But not good enough like low e2 symptoms never happened.

Can I do anything to raise my e2? Ace seems to fast acting, and cyp-enant low dose doing nothing for low e2 too.

Now I'm trying test-e overloading. Shot 3.5ml in 4 days.

 

[bixt]

Now I'm trying test-e overloading

In my experience increasing the dose to aromatise more T->E2 doesn't work when E2 is crashed or low symptoms wise.

I theorise this is due to the ratio being skewed worse to favour T when increasing dose. Yes, while E2 will increase on the higher dose, T will increase to a far greater degree, worsen the ratio and then the low E2 symptoms remain or worsen.

I further theorise this to be mainly applicable in low aromatisers, skinny people.

Fat guys have the exact opposite.

 

[bixt]

In my experience increasing the dose to aromatise more T->E2 doesn't work when E2 is crashed or low symptoms wise.

Solution (from my personal experience) is to add highly aromatisable compounds in for a while. Tiny doses of Dbol, ment are good candidates and provide immediate relief.

I have not tried E2 pills, but this is gaining traction. There was a recently a very long and very detailed post about this being the solution to PFS guys. Heres it:

"I tried a low dose of estradiol valerate 2mg per day and a few days later it was like a light switch flipped, and I felt better, so much that I restarted Testosterone at 10mg EOD + HCG ED, and was feel much better."

Persistent Low E2 symptoms lasting long after crash- Possible Solution or a little relief.

Hi - Not sure if this was posted before but this has provided me at least some much needed relief from low E2 symptoms that have persisted for years after E2 crash. Brief history I have been on TRT since 2009 and never had an issue until I crashed my E2. (protocol 200mgs of test per week and...

www.excelmale.com

 

[susuzadam]

In my experience increasing the dose to aromatise more T->E2 doesn't work when E2 is crashed or low symptoms wise.

I theorise this is due to the ratio being skewed worse to favour T when increasing dose. Yes, while E2 will increase on the higher dose, T will increase to a far greater degree, worsen the ratio and then the low E2 symptoms remain or worsen.

I dont have enough e2, my theories for the reason;

1. Fast testosterone esters metabolize very quickly, and I dont have test in my body enough time to aromatase

2. I ruined my e2 sensivity

3. I can't aromatase anymore

With test-ace/test-cyp blend, I didn't feel e2 relieve like e2 pills on my apetite
With test ace only, 50mg everday relieved nothing.

Now, 1 year later I'm trying long ester moderate dose. It's my fifth day, libido is 8/10 again. Feeling better everyday
Today I injected 25mg npp 25mg tren 5mg test ace.

Also want to know daily very little dose of fast acting ester testosterone does something or not.

I just know this, I need healthy amount of e2 to feel normal again.

 

[susuzadam]

Maybe I don't aromatase like before but after all my test-e injections my libido just went up. That did not happen with increasing test-ace dose.
Don't you think I can maintain the long ester one, and aromatase better than short esters.

 

[bixt]

Today I injected 25mg npp 25mg tren 5mg test ace.

I hear you, I identify with you, because I occasionally dabble myself in small doses of these things.

But now you are making an already very complicated matter (E2 desensitised/not aromatising/fast elimination or whatever it is) exponentially more complicated with the addition of progestins (Or whatever they are, no one really even knows for sure)

You may feel better or worse but cannot use part science part shooting in the dark to come up with a theory of “why” these mixes work.

 

[susuzadam]

Solution (from my personal experience) is to add highly aromatisable compounds in for a while. Tiny doses of Dbol, ment are good candidates and provide immediate relief.

I searched ment a bit. Some guys really liked it, some says it doesn't even worth it. Also 10gram raw is about 250 dollars, for 50gram tren 230 dollar or so.

And I don't know how much ment do I really need daily.

It's easier to make dbol solution with peg/ethyl alcohol and cheaper.

They all say, ment is 2.5x anabolic than tren, but the prices are more. And seems like balloon.

How much dbol did you need, or how much ment relieved you?

I feel just a little bit paranoia with my current protocol, totally worth it I think.

Some says nandrolone acts as estrogen and nandrolone makes testosterone to aromatase more.

Still seeking for lowest dose of npp+test for my e2 need.

And then I can rely on tren for anabolism.

It's like a curse to support e2 in other ways to feel at least normal again.

Now I'm 24 years old, I think I can go with it but some day I need to drop doses really minimally to not feel hypo.

Low e2 sucks.

 

[bixt]

How much dbol did you need, or how much ment relieved you?

I'm just going to say a few mg of either for a few days, dbol is fine, and its cheap. I am only saying this to help you if you are on something like a TRT dose and indeed have debilitating low E2 problems.

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You are talking about things like tren+npp+test+dbol\ment and you are just 24 and already having issues.

It's not what you asked but I suggest you cease everything and do a PCT.

If you still insist on doing "roids", that's your choice and I do know the answer to your questions....but I think this kind of topic will be frowned on in this forum. Also everything I say will be recorded and stored by @madman in his black notebook and used against me one day when I'm helping someone else on something totally different. There is a culture of fear here with many people not responding to posts as they don't want to be sh*t on by @madman even though they are just sharing knowledge. Therefore, I think you will be better served by posting questions containing things like tren\npp\dbol\ment on "steroid" forums such as Professional Muscle and Meso RX. I don't mean to move traffic away from this forum but there will be many more knowledgeable people on those topics to assist you there on steroids.

 

[tareload]

I'm just going to say a few mg of either for a few days, dbol is fine, and its cheap. I am only saying this to help you if you are on something like a TRT dose and indeed have debilitating low E2 problems.

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You are talking about things like tren+npp+test+dbol\ment and you are just 24 and already having issues.

It's not what you asked but I suggest you cease everything and do a PCT.

If you still insist on doing "roids", that's your choice and I do know the answer to your questions....but I think this kind of topic will be frowned on in this forum. Also everything I say will be recorded and stored by @madman in his black notebook and used against me one day when I'm helping someone else on something totally different. There is a culture of fear here with many people not responding to posts as they don't want to be sh*t on by @madman even though they are just sharing knowledge. Therefore, I think you will be better served by posting questions containing things like tren\npp\dbol\ment on "steroid" forums such as Professional Muscle and Meso RX. I don't mean to move traffic away from this forum but there will be many more knowledgeable people on those topics to assist you there on steroids.

Lol! I have absolutely no fear of this little black book. Thanks for making me spill my coffee!

Why is there a culture of fear?

 

[bixt]

Lol! I have absolutely no fear of this little black book. Thanks for making me spill my coffee!

Why is there a culture of fear?

LOL.

Maybe the wrong choice of words but I chat to someone on another platform who lurks here, and he literally wont post for fear of ridicule and judgement by madman.

Picture yourself back at school, with the teacher demonstrating brainstorming with a mind map on the whiteboard. Ridicule enough and students will stop wanting to put up their hands to give ideas.

Still, this is absolutely nothing compared to Bossas fan club and the instant bans.

 

[tareload]

Still, this is absolutely nothing compared to Bossas fan club and the instant bans.

Agreed. Come on guys. Mods here are very fair. Madman just letting off a little steam. It's ok; live and let live here. He loves you all and puts in the work. Much better than other places (ahem...TNation where you get deleted or banned if you start getting too big for your britches).

Let me have it madman. I love you man!

 

[tareload]

And when you think about it...this site about as good as it can get. All this stuff for free* and don't even want money. Nelson and Mods right up there with ideal God imo. Hail madman. Everybody has to blow off steam. He just makes sure the place is not over run with non thinking anabolic enthusiasts.

* ain't free as people like @madman put in the work.

 

[tareload]

Professional Muscle and Meso RX

I sometimes read meso and ugbb. Which one really has the most educated people? Couple of dudes on meso seem pretty clued in.

 

[Charliebizz]

I sometimes read meso and ugbb. Which one really has the most educated people? Couple of dudes on meso seem pretty clued in.

Meso-rx men’s health sub forum used to be the awesome back in the day. Kind of fell off a few years ago.

 

[bixt]

@readalot There's archives of valuable real world info in all of the big forums. I use them as my encyclopaedia to research the "long term consensus of anecdotes" on a particular topic or compound. Of course, you have to read with an analytical as well as a critical mind. Over time your mind will pick up the trends which are in all probability true for most people.

For example, there's no academic papers that will tell you "Compound X causes more water retention and is a better bulker VS compound Y which dries you out and is more suitable for cutting". But you will read this so often from so many people in so many forums from so many countries it must be true?