NO HCG: Dr. Abraham Morgentaler, Dr. Rand McClain, and Jay Campbell??

[jth0524]

These are 3 respected men in our brotherhood of hormonal replacement that don't necessarily believe in the necessity of HCG in TRT protocols. Jay and Dr. McClain are both longtime users of testosterone and both have extensive knowledge in the field of testosterone therapy. Has anyone ever heard them explain what they do to keep their pregnenolone levels up? Has Jay Campbell or Dr. McClain ever shared what their personal pregnenolone levels are after years of TRT use? Has Dr Morgentaler ever addressed pregnenolone specifically and its marked decrease in men after years of TRT? Jay and Dr. McClain are 2 longtime TRT users who seem to be doing great without HCG. I'm curious if anyone has ever heard or scene their thoughts on the above mentioned topics. Thanks.

 

[PAUL-E]

I haven't heard anything from them but I will say one good thing to remember is everyone is different some like myself feel better with hcg and some do not. IMHO its best to find out what's best for YOU!

 

[James]

I've never taken HCG and been on TRT over two years. I'm fortunate not to have experienced any testicular atrophy. That said, I do plan to use HCG to see how I feel. Many guys have said they don't feel anything from HCG but believe it's a good overall practice to incorporate it into their protocol.

 

[ERO]

Pregnenolone is easily supplemented without HCH so perhaps they do that. Many of us use supplemental pregnenolone. I do myself as it helps me relax and sleep so I use before bed.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

jth0524

Great question (or observation)

HCG is not a standard adjunctive therapy with TRT since it is not included in any guidelines. It is also a generic product not pushed by pharmaceutical education. The use with TRT is off label (legal but not approved for that purpose) which makes it more difficult to get it accepted by most doctors.

I am trying to get Lipshultz group at Baylor convinced to do a study comparing two arms of patients:

Arm 1: Men on T gels or injections
Arm 2: Men on T gels or injections plus HCG

After 3 months, switch men from arm 1 to 2 and from arm 2 to 1. Check efficacy for the next 3 months.

I want them to test for upstream hormones (pregnenolone, progresterone) and DHEA and estradiol in both arms as they also ask these men about testicular size and libido changes. It should not be a difficult study to perform.

Hopefully they will agree since this study will give me ammunition for advocating for co-current HCG use more effectively.

 

[mopes]

I want them to test for upstream hormones (pregnenolone, progresterone) and DHEA and estradiol in both arms as they also ask these men about testicular size and libido changes. It should not be a difficult study to perform.

Hopefully they will agree since this study will give me ammunition for advocating for co-current HCG use more effectively.

Would be a hell of a study. I've been wondering about this for the last year. Fascinating topic.

 

[trt4me]

Not an expert but Hcg is used mostly for the lh mimicking properties, dhea and Preg can be dealt with either way.

For someone like me who testes get painful, shrink and libido disappears all at the same exact time at 3 months of Hcg is needed.

Sotimes your own body is the best case study.

 

[mopes]

Not an expert but Hcg is used mostly for the lh mimicking properties, dhea and Preg can be dealt with either way.

For someone like me who testes get painful, shrink and libido disappears all at the same exact time at 3 months of Hcg is needed.

Sotimes your own body is the best case study.

Agreed. You've to find what works for you. It seems to help me too. I'm most interested in their reasoning behind NOT using hcg.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

jth0524

Great question (or observation)

HCG is not a standard adjunctive therapy with TRT since it is not included in any guidelines. It is also a generic product not pushed by pharmaceutical education. The use with TRT is off label (legal but not approved for that purpose) which makes it more difficult to get it accepted by most doctors.

I am trying to get Lipshultz group at Baylor convinced to do a study comparing two arms of patients:

Arm 1: Men on T gels or injections
Arm 2: Men on T gels or injections plus HCG

I want them to test for upstream hormones (pregnenolone, progresterone) and DHEA and estradiol in both arms as they also ask these men about testicular size and libido changes. It should not be a difficult study to perform.

Hopefully they will agree since this study will give me ammunition for advocating for co-current HCG use more effectively.

I'm currently working on this Nelson as my next case study.

If Lipshultz et al were to be involved on a larger scale that would be awesome as well.

 

[Weasel]

I'm currently working on this Nelson as my next case study.

If Lipshultz et al were to be involved on a larger scale that would be awesome as well.

In your case study, if you could monitor dht as well. I believe hcg helps my libido because it keeps my dht near the top of the range.

Again, thanks for all you do for all of us Doc!!

 

[mopes]

I'm currently working on this Nelson as my next case study.

If Lipshultz et al were to be involved on a larger scale that would be awesome as well.

Can't wait to see the data. The idea of backfilling the pathways is extremely logical but would be great to have numbers to back it up.

 

[Weasel]

And then do one with out hcg, but still backfill pathways using preg and dhea.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

The yellow stars indicate where LH (or HCG) may work to aid in the production of upstream hormones.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

These results infer that at the beginning of hCG stimulation, hCG increases the level of StAR protein by cAMP-PKA.


StAR steroidogenic acute regulatory proteinThe protein encoded by this gene plays a key role in the acute regulation of steroid hormone synthesis by enhancing the conversion of cholesterol into pregnenolone. This protein permits the cleavage of cholesterol into pregnenolone by mediating the transport of cholesterol from the outer mitochondrial membrane to the inner mitochondrial membrane.

 

[trt4me]

Pregnelone....
how is everyone judging if the Preg is needed and does if the test is $ so it's usually not used?

I'm a "Nelson" type of guy and like data. Through a lot of labs I found out what takes how long for me for some items.

 

[ERO]

For a lot of us it was simple trial and error. We started using a reasonable amount of Pregenolone and if we felt better, we kept using it. For me, I have in the past had sleeping issues and Pregnenolone before bed (10mg via cream) helps me relax and go to sleep.

I too would prefer to have hard data to back this up, but sometimes one has to experiment as each of us often respond so differently.

 

[James]

ERO - you're taking both DHEA and Preg together prior to bed?

 

[ERO]

I do, yes. 25mg DHEA and 10mg Preg. I find that combination to be very helpful for sleep - far more so than Melatonin in my case.

 

[jth0524]

For anyone that missed it, this discussion really exploded on the ******** page. Dr. Crisler, Dr. McClain, and Jay Campbell have all joined the discussion. It's really cool to see their interactions and point of views. Check it out if you haven't already.

 

[Weasel]

For anyone that missed it, this discussion really exploded on the ******** page. Dr. Crisler, Dr. McClain, and Jay Campbell have all joined the discussion. It's really cool to see their interactions and point of views. Check it out if you haven't already.

Link please