Newest Labs From Daily Protocol

[Gianluca]

Makes sense, one thing at a time. Just keep in mind that prog is basically the ultimate stabilizer. It modulates the conversion of test into E2 and DHT, and indirectly modulates prolactin levels. Most likely due to it modulating E2 conversion, and E2 being the main stimulator of prolactin. So if u would possible benefit from higher doses of T, but run into issues when doing so, prog might be the answer to help u tolerate increased androgen levels. My theory is that when we’re young and natural we can tolerate high levels of androgens and feel great because we concurrently have plenty of prog to balance everything. On TRT we shut down our testicles, and the testicles are where most of our prog is produced, which leaves most guys on TRT with low prog levels. Supplementing with HCG and/ or preg can increase prog levels when on TRT, but doesn’t always. But my theory is that one reason guys on TRT have an increased incidence of side effects is because we lack enough prog to balance everything out properly, and then need to rely on compounds like ai’s and 5ar inhibitors to do the job that prog can help with

The other thing to consider, especially when ur dealing with sleep issues, is that Allopregnenolone is synthesized from progesterone, and one of Allopregnenolone’s many functions is that it’s basically the body’s natural Valium or Xanax. It helps keep u calm and relaxed, which can help guys dealing with anxiety issues, and it also helps with sleep. Hence why guys take it before bed. So definitely a hormone to keep in ur toolbox if u just can’t figure out how to feel optimized without it. Just remember that the body likes all hormones to be balanced. It can’t function properly when any hormone is out of balance. So trying to get optimized with low prog levels is fighting an uphill battle, when u don’t have to, imo

well said @Gman86 I'm putting Progesterone along with Testosterone and Thyroid as the most important hormones for men. Progesterone is really a MUST to check while on HRT

 

[Gianluca]

God, I HATE when labs don’t do a range and just to < a certain number. So annoying! But ya ur obv low. Best case scenario ur at 0.4, but most likely a little lower. No way to know how low tho obv. It’s a tight range, so people have different opinions on what’s optimal. Here’s a video where the guy thinks around 1.2 is optimal. We’d probably have to see prog labs done on men in their prime to really know what level is good for most men.

wow 1.2 ng/ml as optimal Progesterone level!, at least according to the work of this guy. However, you don't hear that often doctors working on optimizing Progesterone in men. It would be interesting to see if the men complaining about anxiety, insomnia and water retention on TRT, would obtain any benefit from going that high with Prog. I'm currently experimenting with a higher Progesterone cream dose, at 25mg.

 

[Gman86]

well said @Gman86 I'm putting Progesterone along with Testosterone and Thyroid as the most important hormones for men. Progesterone is really a MUST to check while on HRT

Ya I’d have to agree. I’m feeling the best I’ve felt in a while and I’m using prog consistently every night, taking iodine every morning, and eating 1 Brazil nut a day for the selenium (both iodine and selenium obv support the thyroid) and have been consistently taking the same dose of test for quite a while now. I really do feel like prog might be the missing key for a lot of guys. It just seems to effect all the hormones that cause guys issues on HRT. The most likely culprits of side effects are usually high E2, prolactin and DHT, as well as low cortisol. And what does prog do? It controls the conversion of test into E2 and DHT, and indirectly lowers prolactin, as well as having the ability to increase cortisol. And what are other side effects of TRT? Sometimes anxiety and sleep issues. What does prog convert into? Allopregnenolone. Which just happens to help with anxiety and sleep. And what are other issues that guys tend to have on TRT? Libido and erection issues. What can Allopregnenolone and lowering prolactin help with? U got it, libido lol. And here’s a video from Leo and longevity where he mentions prog also helping with erections I think. Not sure the mechanism of action that relates to improving erections tho. Here’s the vid if anyone wants to check it out. Not saying prog is the magic bullet and the end all be all, but it really does seem like it’s a very important piece to the puzzle that a lot of guys might be missing. Just seems like it helps with a lot of the common issues that men struggle with on TRT

 

[Gman86]

wow 1.2 ng/ml as optimal Progesterone level!, at least according to the work of this guy. However, you don't hear that often doctors working on optimizing Progesterone in men. It would be interesting to see if the men complaining about anxiety, insomnia and water retention on TRT, would obtain any benefit from going that high with Prog. I'm currently experimenting with a higher Progesterone cream dose, at 25mg.

Oh ya, that’s another thing I forgot to mention. Another common thing that guys complain about on TRT is water retention. What does prog do? It decreases water retention, at least in women. I would assume that effect would carry over to men tho. And definitely keep us posted on ur high dose prog cream experimentation

 

[Gianluca]

Ya I’d have to agree. I’m feeling the best I’ve felt in a while and I’m using prog consistently every night, taking iodine every morning, and eating 1 Brazil nut a day for the selenium (both iodine and selenium obv support the thyroid) and have been consistently taking the same dose of test for quite a while now. I really do feel like prog might be the missing key for a lot of guys. It just seems to effect all the hormones that cause guys issues on HRT. The most likely culprits of side effects are usually high E2, prolactin and DHT, as well as low cortisol. And what does prog do? It controls the conversion of test into E2 and DHT, and indirectly lowers prolactin, as well as having the ability to increase cortisol. And what are other side effects of TRT? Sometimes anxiety and sleep issues. What does prog convert into? Allopregnenolone. Which just happens to help with anxiety and sleep. And what are other issues that guys tend to have on TRT? Libido and erection issues. What can Allopregnenolone and lowering prolactin help with? U got it, libido lol. And here’s a video from Leo and longevity where he mentions prog also helping with erections I think. Not sure the mechanism of action that relates to improving erections tho. Here’s the vid if anyone wants to check it out. Not saying prog is the magic bullet and the end all be all, but it really does seem like it’s a very important piece to the puzzle that a lot of guys might be missing. Just seems like it helps with a lot of the common issues that men struggle with on TRT

Do you still using an injectable? IM or SubQ?

I think the cream may not be as consistent as probably the injectable. I tested twice, on 12.5mg on forearm at night Progest came back at .4, on 12.5mg on inner tight it came back at .1 again, I’m confused, peraphs I don’t absorb any on the inner thigh? That’s bizarre

 

[Gman86]

Do you still using an injectable? IM or SubQ?

I think the cream may not be as consistent as probably the injectable. I tested twice, on 12.5mg on forearm at night Progest came back at .4, on 12.5mg on inner tight it came back at .1 again, I’m confused, peraphs I don’t absorb any on the inner thigh? That’s bizarre

Ya that’s pretty big swing considering the prog range is pretty narrow. I can’t do creams. I just find them inconvenient and too inconsistent for my liking. I don’t like that there’s multiple factors with them that can effect my levels. I prefer injections for everything. Simple, convenient, levels are consistent, and there’s only 1 factor that effects ur levels. And that’s ur dosage.

But ya I do injectable prog subQ every night before bed. Currently doing 1mg. Will have labs done soon to see where I’m at

 

[Gianluca]

Ya that’s pretty big swing considering the prog range is pretty narrow. I can’t do creams. I just find them inconvenient and too inconsistent for my liking. I don’t like that there’s multiple factors with them that can effect my levels. I prefer injections for everything. Simple, convenient, levels are consistent, and there’s only 1 factor that effects ur levels. And that’s ur dosage.

But ya I do injectable prog subQ every night before bed. Currently doing 1mg. Will have labs done soon to see where I’m at

do you feel even the injectable is calming/antianxiety?

 

[JA Battle]

Ya that’s pretty big swing considering the prog range is pretty narrow. I can’t do creams. I just find them inconvenient and too inconsistent for my liking. I don’t like that there’s multiple factors with them that can effect my levels. I prefer injections for everything. Simple, convenient, levels are consistent, and there’s only 1 factor that effects ur levels. And that’s ur dosage.

But ya I do injectable prog subQ every night before bed. Currently doing 1mg. Will have labs done soon to see where I’m at

I remembered at one point you said you felt as though prog might have been negatively affecting you sexually. Do you still feel that way?

 

[Gman86]

I remembered at one point you said you felt as though prog might have been negatively affecting you sexually. Do you still feel that way?

I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s effected me positively or negatively sexually this time around. Not that I’ve noticed at least.

 

[Gianluca]

@Gman86 peraphs a bit out of topic here, but Do you do anything for Pregnenolone, or you are happy with Progest injection and just leave Pregnelonone alone?

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86 peraphs a bit out of topic here, but Do you do anything for Pregnenolone, or you are happy with Progest injection and just leave Pregnelonone alone?

I’ve tried oral and preg cream a few times, and everytime I feel like I either notice nothing or negative symptoms. Possibly decreased mood, decreased libido and/ or decreased sleep quality. I’ve tried preg quite a few times and have just never felt any positive benefits from it. So it’s tough to keep experimenting with it. Plus, I have a naturally high DHEA-S level, so it kind of worries me that taking preg could increase that level further. And I just don’t like that preg can convert into so many different things, and we just never know what it’s gonna convert into and at what ratios. Plus, I feel like all the benefits that I’m personally looking to get out of preg would most likely come from it converting into prog, so might as well just take straight prog, instead of wondering what the preg is gonna convert into and hoping it mainly goes down the prog path. The only thing I was hoping to get out of preg specifically was it’s potential to decrease brain fog. But never once noticed that benefit while taking it, so I’m not super motivated to continue experimenting with it.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Insomnia still wrecking me. I can usually take enough melatonin, lemon balm, theanine, magnesium and niacin to sleep an hour, wake up, sleep for half hour, take it all again, cycle repeated. Totaling 4 to 6 hours like that. I've been using 7-8 milligrams test cyp daily now for a few weeks. Shouldn't there be some improvement in sleep by now??? Probably going to drop to 6mg... @Cataceous any thoughts?

 

[Cataceous]

I can point to what works for me, in case you haven't tried everything already:

I Haven’t Slept in 4 years. What to Do?

I mean, I haven’t slept in 4 years without taking drugs. I’ve been on TRT for 4 years and I think that is why I cannot sleep well. When I started taking TRT I can only get about 4 hours of sleep. Then I wake up and I am wide-awake, but also tired. I cannot fall back asleep unless I eat a high...

www.excelmale.com

To these I'd add phosphatidylserine, which may help if cortisol levels are part of the problem.

I think the sex hormone levels factor into sleep quality, but I don't know the full set of relationships—only that for me hypogonadism is a big negative, rising testosterone is problematic, and progesterone is helpful.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I can point to what works for me, in case you haven't tried everything already:

I Haven’t Slept in 4 years. What to Do?

I mean, I haven’t slept in 4 years without taking drugs. I’ve been on TRT for 4 years and I think that is why I cannot sleep well. When I started taking TRT I can only get about 4 hours of sleep. Then I wake up and I am wide-awake, but also tired. I cannot fall back asleep unless I eat a high...

www.excelmale.com

To these I'd add phosphatidylserine, which may help if cortisol levels are part of the problem.

I think the sex hormone levels factor into sleep quality, but I don't know the full set of relationships—only that for me hypogonadism is a big negative, rising testosterone is problematic, and progesterone is helpful.

Thanks. Do you take that whole list together? No interactions with the melatonin and hydroxyzine?

Let's just say my testosterone levels are just still too high at 8mg daily... if I drop to 6mg, should I see improvement in a couple weeks? It shouldn't take the full 6 weeks to see something, correct?

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks. Do you take that whole list together? No interactions with the melatonin and hydroxyzine?

Let's just say my testosterone levels are just still too high at 8mg daily... if I drop to 6mg, should I see improvement in a couple weeks? It shouldn't take the full 6 weeks to see something, correct?

I still use everything on that list, along with the aforementioned phosphatidylserine. If there is an interaction between melatonin and diphenhydramine then it's favorable, at least for me.

If your apparent half-life for cypionate is as short as suggested by your lab work then you would likely see the effect of a dose change on serum levels in less than two weeks. Any effect on sleep might be similarly responsive. When exploring low doses like this it's probably better to have a shorter half-life, so that your daily serum peak is at a normal level.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I still use everything on that list, along with the aforementioned phosphatidylserine. If there is an interaction between melatonin and diphenhydramine then it's favorable, at least for me.

If your apparent half-life for cypionate is as short as suggested by your lab work then you would likely see the effect of a dose change on serum levels in less than two weeks. Any effect on sleep might be similarly responsive. When exploring low doses like this it's probably better to have a shorter half-life, so that your daily serum peak is at a normal level.

Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence referring to the daily serum peak at a normal level. Can you expand on that a little? My 2 hour sleep brain has trouble comprehending occasionally.

 

[JA Battle]

Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence referring to the daily serum peak at a normal level. Can you expand on that a little? My 2 hour sleep brain has trouble comprehending occasionally.

I can say as another antidote besides that of @Cataceous that dropping test down to 5 mg did nothing wrong for me. I did not stay on it super long but at least one month. I noticed no negatives and maybe an improvement in erectile quality and reduction in anxiety.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I can say as another antidote besides that of @Cataceous that dropping test down to 5 mg did nothing wrong for me. I did not stay on it super long but at least one month. I noticed no negatives and maybe an improvement in erectile quality and reduction in anxiety.

Why did you change then? Sounds like it was a good move...?

 

[JA Battle]

Why did you change then? Sounds like it was a good move...?

I was experimenting on how I felt and collecting bloodwork data. I don’t have bad sleep or anxiety symptoms with levels up to 30mg per day so I did not end up staying there. I still favor lower doses but am all over the place with experimenting still

 

[JA Battle]

I was experimenting on how I felt and collecting bloodwork data. I don’t have bad sleep or anxiety symptoms with levels up to 30mg per day so I did not end up staying there. I still favor lower doses but am all over the place with experimenting still

If 5 mg doesn’t work then I would do 8mg of prop. Prop has treated me entirely different. I’m pairing 12 mg of prop and 150mg oral testosterone base 3x daily. Erectile quality is back full after years of bad eq. Libido has improved. I’m kind of lethargic but maybe that’s from increased ejaculation. I’ve been busting countless times daily for days which is not like me. I’m also on nicotine, caffeine and periodic beers/cannabis. I always speak of these because they are very metabolically relevant chemicals.